Changes at Pathway?

[Antigen]

ramprato: just got a new post here http://fornits.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php? ... 1&start=90
RFornit: Woooo Hoooo! Go, nakid2003!!
ramprato: yep! :smile:

The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Nakid,
       I believe your feelings are valid for you to have. The feelings belong to you and that fact alone make them so. Just as my feelings are valid to me. Can you list some of the programs you would have actively participated in and believe would have worked for you and paused the insanity in your own home? Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?I ask this question of others and all I get is another smokescreen that never gives a reasonable reply.... they just vent about something else to try to take away the focus.Also, thank you for at least admitting  that drugs or alcohol was a problem for you. When I read Carmel's comments, I come away with the idea that only a couple of people who ever went to Pathway had a problem. The majority were conjured up.This may have been true for her stay with Straight but I have no clue how she knows what goes on at Pathway. It surely doesn't jive with anyone I know in the program there. Could you comment without giving details how many kids were in Pathway who you truely believe did not have a problem with problem solving which involved drugs or alcohol as an escape? Nice to see honesty in what you have to say. It is refreshing. For me it is hard to look at issues that may be valid when so much fake issues are raised as a smoke screen because someone wants a scapegoat for why they are not happy in life.

[Carmel]

FYI-

Pathway is a direct decendent of Straight Detroit.  Read the logistical information at Wes Fager's site.  I dont have to be at Pathway to know and understand the methods used there.  Just like i did not have to be at Straight Atlanta, or KIDS of Southern California, or The Seed, to know and understand the methods used there.  For years I new zilch about any of the other programs, until I came here....and did not just read the posted information, but listened to the people speak.  It has been the same everywhere.

By the same token, to answer your question about acceptable treatment programs, I am sure there are many.  However, I do not feel that any that use the methods that Straight/Pathway/KIDs use and used are acceptable.  Thats not a smokescreen, thats what I think based on my firsthand experience and my subsequent maturity.

Also, you suggest to nakid that he/she at least admitted to having a problem....that mentality comes directly from the Straight way, we are all druggie losers, there are just those that wont admit it.  

I dont have a problem, if I did, how would I be able to drink occasionaly and still have a job, a family, a home and a life that I am very decidely HAPPY with (contrary to the smokescreeners) year after year and not end up dead or in jail? According to the program, the same one that Pathway follows, I should be totally useless right now.  Sobriety is a lifelong goal is it not, and I do not strive for it......so after being in the Program and admitting that I was a raging addict and alcoholic, how is it that this can be?  

Also, you refer to their "honesty" (and I am not knocking it ) as refreshing because they attempt to have an open mind to the possibilities.   But be aware that just because I do not advocate even giving this methodology a chance any longer (they have had 20 some odd years to prove that it works and this board and Wes's site are the biggest press they have to date) does NOT mean that I am dishonest about what I say here, I am an adult now and with children of my own, am more concerned about the possibility of this sort of thing happenening to kids even today.  The fact is, YOU dont know whats going on in there.  You dont know what someone is whispering in your childs ear at night that they cant tell you about, or how it feels to be told to sing as loud as you can to drown out the screams of someone being hurled to the floor.  I know what that feels like, I was there, and those "honest" people in there used the exact same program as your Pathway does.

I dont have to be at Pathway to understand the thinking behind whats happening there, your very posts are a testament to the similarities.  The phrases and words that you use, the mode of speech, the ideas that you present positively are saturated with what I was subjected to 24 hours a day for 9 months.  I WAS there and I wouldnt be able to forget the things I heard every single day while I lived in fear.  The very structure of your wording sounds like my oldcomer going over my MI.  

My branch of Straight was under serious investigation before I left.  There were a whole barrage of "changes" that took effect.  Changes I am sure delighted the parents and made the investigators smile in triumph.....but I swear to you, when the going got too rough, those changes flew out the window, and they flew fast.  There wasnt any stopping it when the investigators were gone and you were alone with 4-5 other kids ready to give you payback for instigating changes.  

The idea that no one at Pathway matches what I descibe as someone without a drug problem was the same when I was in Straight.  Everyone had a problem, there would be trouble and a loss of income for the corporation if everyone didnt have a problem.  I went into Straight a minor experimenter and became a full blown crack and PCP addict in no time flat, it was the only way to be "bad" enough to "get better".  You think that any of the parents were led to think that maybe their kid didnt have a drug problem?  No way.  I am telling you...its not about what you are seeing Anon...its about what you dont see, and what the rules of the program prevent you from seeing.  It IS there, I promise.  I dont want ANYONES kid to be on drugs, or to be in danger, not yours not mine...not anyones.  But I am telling you with very much honesty, that this method is not the way.  Its a temporary fix.

[METALGOD8]

On 2003-07-22 20:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nakid,

       I believe your feelings are valid for you to have. The feelings belong to you and that fact alone make them so. Just as my feelings are valid to me. Can you list some of the programs you would have actively participated in and believe would have worked for you and paused the insanity in your own home? Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?I ask this question of others and all I get is another smokescreen that never gives a reasonable reply.... they just vent about something else to try to take away the focus.Also, thank you for at least admitting  that drugs or alcohol was a problem for you. When I read Carmel's comments, I come away with the idea that only a couple of people who ever went to Pathway had a problem. The majority were conjured up.This may have been true for her stay with Straight but I have no clue how she knows what goes on at Pathway. It surely doesn't jive with anyone I know in the program there. Could you comment without giving details how many kids were in Pathway who you truely believe did not have a problem with problem solving which involved drugs or alcohol as an escape? Nice to see honesty in what you have to say. It is refreshing. For me it is hard to look at issues that may be valid when so much fake issues are raised as a smoke screen because someone wants a scapegoat for why they are not happy in life."

Pathway is the smokescreen and you have no clue why. When you have 20 years of experience living with ramifications of the treatment modality used on you at Pathway, then you will have more wisdom with which to make an educated statement.
The scapegoats are the kids that are there now. Wake up and smell the coffee there, anonymous.


MG8 :smokin:

[Anonymous]

"Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?"

Anon,

Why do you need a place to work on your "issues" anyway? You have only had your entire PARENTHOOD to address your stuff and still apparently refuse to take on responsibility for your own shortcomings, otherwise you never would of needed a Straight-like place to stick your kid in. You I bet were only TOO happy to hear from them that your kid was the main problem of your family and your life. Must of been nice being surrounded by all the flattery from people validated your selfish ego known as the parent group huh?

You know, it's not me who is going to feel the reprecussions of your refusal to pull your kid when you have been warned that they are in a dangerous place, it is YOU that will feel it some day.

The only smoke screen here is the cloud you are hiding in. I am glad I don't have to be you and face your troubled 30 year old some day because they are the byproduct of a mind rape mill that you refused to release them from.

[Anonymous]

"By the same token, to answer your question about acceptable treatment programs, I am sure there are many. However, I do not feel that any that use the methods that Straight/Pathway/KIDs use and used are acceptable."

Here we go again.... There is this nebulous fantasy world that says therapy is better over the rainbow. If you are so sure that there are better programs out there, PLEASE LIST THEM!!!! This is not a very difficult task if what you say is true. Why do I not get a reply on this that IS specific??? I am just asking you to back up what you say and I will research your options. If it is better ... why would I not switch and leave Pathway in the dust? But of course if what is said is crap... it is difficult to defend it with fact. When you cannot do this and try to change the subject, it leaves very little credibility in anything you have to say.

As far as parents needing a place to work on their issues, it is not up to you to decide whether I need more help than my parental friends can muster. I simply asked what specific program is out there to give me that help that you think would work, not make a judgement on whether I need it or not. Again fantasy land says... I don't need the help in the first place. Everything that parents do wrong, they can figure out on their own.(maybe after all the kids have gone... but eventually, all will be good) Maybe I did not want to wait for the answers to just come floating my way or I was focused on the wrong ailments and needed help (and courage) to look at the real issues. Since you do not like Pathway, where else can I go to get what I need. You say Pathway is evil.... OK.... where else do I go then? Pick one that is no more costly than Pathway and in your mind is not Evil. I just want to look at what you specificly come up with. (If you can.)

[Carmel]

To be perfectly honest with you, I cannot name specific programs that are more effective and less abusive, nor is it my responsibility to.  I was not in an effective treatment center, how would I know whether any of the others were better, I wasnt in them? The only information I have to give is on what I experienced, to do otherwise would not be valid.  That is not fantasy, it is very much reality.  Fantasy would be to tout the virtues of other programs to you without knowing shit from shinola about them.  YOUR child is in Pathway, and I know a thing or two about the Pathway modality, hence my responsibility ends with helping you to understand what you child may be going through.

That is YOUR job as a parent to research other programs.  If I were a parent coming upon this sort of overwhelming dissent against the program my child is in, I wouldnt be afraid of digging deep to find the information I needed to make the best choice for my CHILD, not the best choice that stops my discomfort of being at odds with my CHILD, you are not the one in danger of being abused. You have found a huge amount of data suggesting that Pathway may be abusive and ineffective.  Thats a sight more than what is available on other programs and centers, maybe instead of asking "where should I go", you should begin asking "where SHOULDNT I go"?  If I were you, I would be out there pounding the pavement researching other places myself.

We are here to tell you what we experienced as clients under the same program method your child is now under.  There is no fantasy about what we went through.  You as a responsible parent need to break past the barrier of your comfort zone and ask responsible questions about where you are and what you should do to better the situation.  Im sorry, but its not up to us to tell you where to go, although some may be able to give you more information than I can personally....dont be a victim of "not knowing better".  You will end up resentful and guilt ridden over it.

In respect to backing up what I say, I am doing just that.  I know what I am talking about becasue I was there, under that brand of treatment.  I dont need to back up the possibility of better treatment, I need to back up the possibility that Pathway is ABUSIVE because THAT is where my knowledge lies.  In your demand for answers you are yourself truly skirting the question.  

The fact is that your child is now in a treatment center that is very possibly extremely damaging to them.  If your child were still out living with you and not in treatment, THEN we could debate the effectiveness of different programs and have that be a valid argument.  The problem is, you are looking past the situation at hand, the situation that your child is very likely in danger in this program, and I feel sorry that because I know what it was like...longing for my mother and longing to tell her the hell I was in.  But do you think for one moment that your child would dare?  I smiled and waved and worked my program so hard because I was PETRIFIED of the alternative....so much so that I BELIEVED what I said about myself and my situation.  Thats terrifying to me that you have your child on that side of the fence that I was on so long ago.  

[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2003-07-23 15:10 ]

[METALGOD8]

I would have to agree with Carmel that you are skirting, and it is not our responsibility to find you a treatment program that works. My responsibility is to witness Pathway's closure and make sure that they do not change names and move somewhere else as another STRAIGHT, INC relative. Along with all the other programs like it out there, Pathway has chosen to remain open, make a couple superficial "changes" and continued doing business, at best temporarily I hope. The Regional Director of STRAIGHT, INC. who was also the Director of Straight Foundation and a doctor of education, mind you, told me flat out that he didn't know of any treatment program that works. It's not up to the program, it's up to the individual. You see your car broken, ok, so you get some money to the mechanic and its fixed. Cars dont think for themselves. People do. Just because you pay someone to "fix" your kid is no guarantee it will happen.
Either way, pulling out of Pathway would be a good start!  :smokin:

[butternationalist]

Can you list some of the programs that you believe would have had the full participation of your parents to work on their issues?

sir or maam,
  In this statement you just proved your own point of children needing places like pathway wrong. I find it hard to believe that very many if any parents at all need a place such as pfc/straight. the parent groups are merely another way the staff can brainwash the clients into thinking that their parents need just as much help as the clients do. If this was the case then how could parents have gone this long without cracking and losing it. Nearly evey parent in thre i knew in my pfc days, were successful members of society with legal jobs who were mainly good people. If you have ever been involved with pfc you know, wether yu want to admit it or not- every littlething in pathway is blown out of porportion, exagerated. the staf had a way of sneakily making a mountain out of a molehill. parents were made to believe they had issuses when all they had were feelings. Staff would agitate these feelings and bring them up to get the parents, (mainly newcomer parents) into a position to where they were vulnerable enough to slide something subliminal into the conversation like, " These are things you need to work through in these parent groups, talk to your oldcomer parent, these are the things your son/daughter are woring on as well.This will help your family come together again." if parents or kids have real issues they need to see a counselor or go to outpatient group.
The Bottom Line--Feelings are turned into issues, you leave with more problems than what you came with. You are made to think that you need to keep going to pfc in order to stay healthy and deal with your "issues".

C'MON folks lets get real. peace :idea:----smith

[Anonymous]

"That is YOUR job as a parent to research other programs. If I were a parent coming upon this sort of overwhelming dissent against the program my child is in, I wouldnt be afraid of digging deep to find the information I needed to make the best choice for my CHILD, not the best choice that stops my discomfort of being at odds with my CHILD, you are not the one in danger of being abused. You have found a huge amount of data suggesting that Pathway may be abusive and ineffective. Thats a sight more than what is available on other programs and centers, maybe instead of asking "where should I go", you should begin asking "where SHOULDNT I go"? If I were you, I would be out there pounding the pavement researching other places myself. "


Now we are getting somewhere.... This is EXACTLY what I had to do and that is how I came up with Pathway as the best route available to go. After watching others go thru less involved programs and be right back where they started before the thousands of dollars spent on their idea of rehab, I chose Pathway after seeing what they could do for my child and the rest of the family. I chose them after speaking to graduates and to clinical psychologists and social workers with what their best recommendation to do. Guess what? They are not paid spokesmen for Pathway. They all had their own program affilliates that they could have referred me to. They agreed with my decision that this place was  a good option for care. No other program that I researched gave that as a intregal part of therapy. I am greatful for it. Do I agree with every clinical decision or rule they have? NOOOOOOOOO! Do I believe our lives have improved by what we have all learned? YESSSSS!

   Yes Pathway has some treatment proceses of Straight but these treatment processes are common with many other treatment centers. Just like YOU, Carmel, are not a carbon copy of your mother who you have said had poor behaviors.You do have some commonalities. So things can have a common ground yet the effect is dramatically different.

   Thank you for admitting that you do not know of a program that you found better than Pathway. I came to the exact same conclusion. The difference was I have a human life balancing on the decision I made. Fortunately for me, it has turned out to be the best one I could have made.

[METALGOD8]

Uh oh, that's the same thing my parents said 20 years ago. You just go on thinkin your life is great. In your mind, it probably is. Give it some time. In the meantime check out the 42 names of STRAIGHT, INC, KIDS Of New Jersey, etc etc...  suicide victims when you get some time. It is rather compelling.

BTW, Do or did you have a foster parent license issued by your state (MI, or IN) while hosting kids in Pathway? I tend to believe that you did/do not. Please, do tell... If you did not host kids... then... the rule is that at least your kid hosts at another house until a certain phase or level has been attained. Did those parents have state licenses to do that? Be honest please.


MG8 :smokin:

[Carmel]

"Thank you for admitting that you do not know of a program that you found better than Pathway. I came to the exact same conclusion. The difference was I have a human life balancing on the decision I made. Fortunately for me, it has turned out to be the best one I could have made."

And thank you for COMPLETELY twisting my words around. Admitting that I dont know the effectivness of other treatment centers in comparison with Pathway, in no way, shape or form means that I consider none of them to be better than Pathway, or especially that Pathway is the best choice.  Your conclusion and mine are completely different, lets clarify that.

Fortunately for YOU....being the keywords here, what about your child?  

You very simply cannot understand where we as former clients are coming from.  All the psychologists, the counselors, the parents...everyone except the clients, are positioned to view an entirely separate perspective of what goes on in the program than what really happens there.  No psychiatrist is gonna tell you about the violence, or the verbal abuse.....and you arent even going to see it.  Its all packaged and sanitized for Open Meetings.  If you are okay with that fact, then lets drop it here.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-07-23 23:46:00, METALGOD8 wrote:

"Uh oh, that's the same thing my parents said 20 years ago. You just go on thinkin your life is great. In your mind, it probably is. Give it some time. In the meantime check out the 42 names of STRAIGHT, INC, KIDS Of New Jersey, etc etc...  suicide victims when you get some time. It is rather compelling.



BTW, Do or did you have a foster parent license issued by your state (MI, or IN) while hosting kids in Pathway? I tend to believe that you did/do not. Please, do tell... If you did not host kids... then... the rule is that at least your kid hosts at another house until a certain phase or level has been attained. Did those parents have state licenses to do that? Be honest please.





MG8 :smokin:





"

Here is the Michigan state law so we can get rid of another bogus issue. Since I am quoting state law, you might have difficulty in twisting it to say what you want but I am sure you will try. I will speak about how things were done in my home since you are feebly trying to say I am breaking the law. Since I do not have the same child for more than 4 days in a row, 24 hours CONTINUOUSLY  (holliday + weekend) for more two weeks in a row, the law does not apply. If I host during the week for 5 days, the law still says in my care for 24 hours 4 days in a row and 2 weeks straight. THE LAW HAS BEEN COMPLIED WITH EVERYTIME I HOST.  Also the law applies to only minors (under the age of 18) so if I hosted 6 people and 1 over the age and another being my child, there are still less than 7 people that the law would apply to. But of course if you had a leg to stand on, you would have been quoting the state law right? Isn't amazing? I find facts to back up why I say. Others just state what they want to believe and that is supposed to make it true. Again, all this does is put less and less credibility into any arguments presented.... MG8 is smoking because he/she got burnt on another one of her big unsupported problems with Pathway.

http://www.michigan.gov
synopsis:

The Legal Basis for Licensing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
The legal basis for licensing child care organizatons in Michigan is  Act 116 , of the Public Acts of 1973, as amended. Foster family homes and foster family group homes are types of child care organizations as defined in Act 116.

 

As defined in Act 116:

 

Foster Family Home - means a private home in which 1 but not more than 4 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the adoption code, are given care and supervision for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.

 

Foster Family Group Home - means a private home in which more than 4 but fewer than 7 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the adoption code, are provided care for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.

The exact reading of the state statute:

(i) ?Foster family home? is a private home in which 1 but not more than 4 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, are given care and supervision for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.

(ii) ?Foster family group home? means a private home in which more than 4 but fewer than 7 minor children, who are not related to an adult member of the household by blood or marriage, or who are not placed in the household pursuant to the Michigan adoption code, chapter X of the probate code of 1939, 1939 PA 288, MCL 710.21 to 710.70, are provided care for 24 hours a day, for 4 or more days a week, for 2 or more consecutive weeks, unattended by a parent or legal guardian.

http://www.michiganlegislature.org/mile ... highlight=

[METALGOD8]

Pathway's hosting policies are not a bogus issue. OK, you are in MI, however, Pathway is not only doing business in MI. Getting your facts should include all of Pathway branches. Also, are those children that you are hosting, or have hosted in your home, there willingly? I would caution any host parent that thinks just because the child is in their home according to Pathway rules and policies, that they are immune to laws concerning holding persons against their will etc. The first phasers could best answer that question.
Was your home altered in any way for the expected arrival of children not related to you but in your care there according to Pathway guidelines? Can you speak for all of the clients? Do you know if all of the clients get moved around often enough to satisfy the law?
 
As my Phillip Morris bumper sticker reads: I am a proud American smoker.  :smokin:  :smokin:  :smokin:  :smokin:

[Anonymous]

I can state only that in my home,IN MICHIGAN ,which is all I care about because that is where I live and need to concern myself with, the law was complied with every time I hosted. Since this what you have accused me of, I only have to show it is now true here. Others can pull the laws to refute what you say if they desire. I am sure it would be just as convincing as mine.The home met the fire code for my community and other than a chime on the exit doors, there were no physical barriers to leaving my home. Even the windows in the room where kids slept had free access to the outside. Of course, if the window was opened, I was made aware of it, but it did open all the way. Thinking back over the many months I have hosted, I cannot remember any time that kids were not rotated. This also had an advantage for the kids to see many living situations. It made them maybe more aware of all the difficulties other kids had in their perspective environments... maybe theirs was not as bad or they could see that whatever chaos they had to face didn't need to be that way in the future.
   The bottom line is this MG8. If you have issues you wish to discuss with me or others about your feelings about your therapy experience or ideas about how therapy could be made to better serve you then talk about those things. When you make false claims about what you clearly have no clue to be in the realm a stitch truth, I will expose it to the rest of those who read the posts. So I guess your choice, lie and be called on it or stick to things you know.