Cults in our midst

[Anne Bonney]

I really would like to get a discussion about AA/NA/OA/CA and all the other "A"s out there.  IMO, this is at the root of a lot of these places.  Most of them at least use some form or another of it and refer people to it for aftercare out of program.  Courts are constantly ordering people to attend.  It's woven it's way through mainstream society and I think it's deplorable.

Let's examine and explore the cult that is AA/XA.

I was reading Agent Oranges site, as I often do, and I was reminded of our latest freaked out parent who has already sent the daughter to Catherine Freer and is now seeking more fun for baby.  After all, both parents are alcoholics so baby now has a 100 % chance of becoming one herself!!!  :scared:

Fraidy cat parent, this is for you.  Please peruse the rest of AO's site.  You just might find yourself liberated afterall.


Everybody else, please give me your opinions/experiences.
TIA



http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters81.html

Date: Tue, April 3, 2007     (answered 14 April)
From: "Just Me"
Subject: I Got Out Alive

Hi Orange,

I got out alive, but just barely. I have been indoctrinated with Alcoholics Anonymous for nearly four decades.

I am staggered. I am in shock by what I let the 'AA fellowship' do to me. I have thought for some time now that AA was a cult. I thought it harmless. About 6 months ago, I realized (again) that this thing was killing me. Three months later I walked out of a meeting and said, "I'm done. Members and their shame/their slogans/their steps/their God/their authoritative sponsors/their utter abandonment/their dishonesty/ their selfishness/their denial/their program and most of all their low regard for human beings are going to kill me if I do not get out." I defected that night. I cut all ties. I don't think I'll ever regret that decision.

THIS IS NOT A HARMLESS PROGRAM THAT HELPS SOME PEOPLE. It is harmful. It is a dangerous cult. The program and its PROGRAMED members PROGRAM people. It hurts people. Some die.

I have a glimpse of the life I never had a chance to live because of my years of active involvement in AA. I feel tremendous grief.

I am working with someone experienced in cult de-programming. I will find my way through this.

I have a great deal of history and a strong voice. When I get this off of me, I will post my story and speak LOUD.

-Anon

PS. Orange, thank you for this stringent on-going work. It is of highest importance. It empowers me to know there are other defectors, heretics and protesters. I have lived through 38 years of AA indoctrination and studied AA history. I can find NO FLAW on the orange-papers site. The detail and supporting evidence is impeccable. My history pre-dates Bill Wilson's death and Marty Mann's death as well. I hope my experiences and old documents will contribute this pertinent cause.

What is the average length of time that defectors stay in AA before defecting? How many leave after plus 20 years of involvement? Of those that defect, how many leave in protest of the cult and how many just leave quietly going on about their lives?

PS. Orange, It is fine to post the above message if you would like. I would like to exchange some email with you that will not be posted. Is that possible? I am not ready to go public yet. I will and it will be bold. We could discuss posting it at a later date.

[Anne Bonney]

Cult test Q&A:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

[Ursus]

I've known a few people that got involved over the years due to their problem drinking.  In one case the guy really did end up having a physical addiction because his abuse of it went on so long before he actually was able to do something about it.  I don't think that was the case with the other guy.  

But in both cases, what got them started with their alcohol abuse wasn't a physical addiction.  It was some pretty fucking serious problems.  In one case being sodomized by faculty at his religious grammar school, and his classmates taking up the cause, as it were, and not exactly on his behalf, if you get my drift.  That is some pretty fucking heavy shit to deal with when you haven't quite yet reached double-digit years.

Both these fellows drifted away from AA as time went on.  As far as I know, neither one of them goes anymore.  The guy who ended up becoming physically addicted had a relapse a few years ago during a crisis, but picked himself up and carried on just fine.  The other one hasn't had a relapse but also doesn't touch the stuff which is probably a good thing, as his battle with the Catholic Church still consumes his soul.

[Anne Bonney]

I'm by no means saying that someone doesn't have a problem if they really feel they do.  I question it, because it's become so accepted that alcoholism is a 'disease' (it's not) and AAers are notorious for convincing people they have problem even if they don't.

If someone honestly has a substance abuse problem, seek medical help, not quackery.

[Oz girl]

I have mixed feelings toward AA. I have a friend whose mother was a bonafide alcoholic that never sought any kind of help. This woman's childhood was horrible  and she has an almost irrational fear of drink. This is fine now but i wonder if she will react disproportionally the first time her kid sneaks a beer or 2.

I once read a column ( i think I posted it) by an Aussie journalist who also argued AA was a cult. He has spoken about this a few times and is quite bitter about his experience so it obviously did him more harm than good. Other than him i had never heard this AA is a cult theory before reading the orange papers article.
But AA seems to be the main way people with such an issue here and evidently in most parts of the US get help. I know a few who have said it has genuinely helped because there is a sense of community and that these other "people in recovery" have a level of insight that their loved ones do not. The same people however have not cut themselves off from family and friends and do not lecture them on the evils of drink etc. I wonder if like some religious churches it varies from gruop to group and some "chapters" are worse than others. I also think that the self help thing may have morphed and become more sinister over the years.

It was originally designed for voluntary adults not kids whose parents had forced them into a grotesque cult.

I have found the link to the article.
http://blogs.smh.com.au/radar/archives/ ... he_pa.html

I also saw an excellent doco which followed 3 alcoholics who got help in 3 different ways. 2 did not go down the 12 step route & the ABC message board was flodded with AA posters claiming that the show was biased when it was i thought pretty balanced. So I can see there the argument that it can get cultic
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/ ... 849474.htm

[Anne Bonney]

It was originally designed for voluntary adults not kids whose parents had forced them into a grotesque cult.

Not really.  It originated as a religious cult.  It's really not much different.  The people that I've seen that are truly 'helped' by it, are the ones who don't take it so seriously.  The go for the companionship and mainly just talk to people afterwards.  All the ones I've met who get a sponsor, go to regular weekly meetings, "do" the "steps" and all that shit are just goners.


Growing Up in a Twelve Step Home
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-let ... growing_up

I have found the link to the article.
http://blogs.smh.com.au/radar/archives/ ... he_pa.html

Oh yeah, very common.  It's called "13th Stepping".

Go here http://www.orange-papers.org/ and about half way down the page you'll see a section titled "Updates".  Look in there for all his stuff on the Midtown group.  It's ended up being covered in Newsweek and a few others.


I

also saw an excellent doco which followed 3 alcoholics who got help in 3 different ways. 2 did not go down the 12 step route & the ABC message board was flodded with AA posters claiming that the show was biased when it was i thought pretty balanced. So I can see there the argument that it can get cultic
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/ ... 849474.htm

Yeah, it really does.  It shows up most when you criticize it or Bill W.  They go a little nuts.

[Anonymous]

bump

[Anonymous]

Religion started as a voluntary thing for adults but people who think they own the moral authority have a way of ending up forcing it on people. Not having a glass of wine gives these people a way to separate themselves from society at large , looking down on them with smug disdain. It is a religion and like any religion some (usually minority) groups are liberal and open, and the orthodox treatment regimes are more typical, the stereotypical AA fundamentalists you can find at our local sex-segretated meeting (good indicator of their fundamentalism).

[Oz girl]

I

Not really.  It originated as a religious cult.  It's really not much different.  The people that I've seen that are truly 'helped' by it, are the ones who don't take it so seriously.  The go for the companionship and mainly just talk to people afterwards.  All the ones I've met who get a sponsor, go to regular weekly meetings, "do" the "steps" and all that shit are just goners.
.

Yeah, it really does.  It shows up most when you criticize it or Bill W.  They go a little nuts.[/quote]

Well then to me that is not dissimilar to any other group. There are those who take it all Way seriously and those who take what they need but keep some sort of balance. i do remember reading the newsweek article on that chapter of AA that had gotten out of control. i will read the article on growing up in AA. It is too bad that you cant see the doco on it Anne as it was pretty interesting. it had one bloke who went with some mob called SMART recovery who apparently meet only once a week and tend to go in for cognitive behavioural therapy, One guy who is a minor celebrity here who went cold turkey and credits the support of his wife and friends and a 12 stepper who feels without it he would still be at rock bottom.
One thing that i did note was that both the celelbrity guy and the Smart recovery ppl both said that this rock bottom idea is sort of bunk and plenty of people recognise a problem way before it gets to that and go on to live pretty happy undramatic lives.

To me anything which tells you to totally cut all of your loved ones out of your life is a little sinister and unhealthy but then as not everyone who goes to AA does this, this is why I am not convinced it is a total cult. What makes some ppl keep it in perspective and others go crazy with it? i also think it is popular because it is the poor man's assistance. if you cant afford some kind of expensive medical treatemnt but you are struggling on your own then something like this must be attractive.

[Anne Bonney]

Well then to me that is not dissimilar to any other group. There are those who take it all Way seriously and those who take what they need but keep some sort of balance. i do remember reading the newsweek article on that chapter of AA that had gotten out of control. i will read the article on growing up in AA. It is too bad that you cant see the doco on it Anne as it was pretty interesting. it had one bloke who went with some mob called SMART recovery who apparently meet only once a week and tend to go in for cognitive behavioural therapy, One guy who is a minor celebrity here who went cold turkey and credits the support of his wife and friends and a 12 stepper who feels without it he would still be at rock bottom.
One thing that i did note was that both the celelbrity guy and the Smart recovery ppl both said that this rock bottom idea is sort of bunk and plenty of people recognise a problem way before it gets to that and go on to live pretty happy undramatic lives.

To me anything which tells you to totally cut all of your loved ones out of your life is a little sinister and unhealthy but then as not everyone who goes to AA does this, this is why I am not convinced it is a total cult. What makes some ppl keep it in perspective and others go crazy with it? i also think it is popular because it is the poor man's assistance. if you cant afford some kind of expensive medical treatemnt but you are struggling on your own then something like this must be attractive.

Yep, that's part of the problem.  There really isn't anything else out there.  I don't have a problem with people who have the same goal getting together for support, it's the rules and subtle programming that takes place.  No, there's nothing in the BB that tells you to cut off your family.  That's usually the sponsor who does that.  The wife becomes irritated at her husband's constant meetings (remember, 90 meetings in 90 days) and zealous devotion (which he has because he's been convinced that he'll be deadinsaneorinjail if he leaves, sound familiar?).  If she dares question anything, then she's 'endangering his sobriety' and over time the husband is convinced that it is 'in his best interest' to 'eliminate the stressors' from his life.  This happens so much more than people realize and it's really the tip of the iceberg.  That Midtown Group isn't an isolated incident.  It's just one that ended up being so big and overt that it got some ink.

The various programs that we went through were abusive, all to varying degrees.  I didn't think anything could be worse than Straight and then I hear about kids being kept in dog cages in the Caribbean.  It's all varying degrees of bullshit.  AA convinces people that they are powerless over alcohol and they'll DIE if they leave.

   Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

    Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 35.

    ...he was insisting that he had found the only cure.
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 257.

    ...they had found the only remedy...
    The Big Book, 3rd Edition, page 259.

Now we all know that's not true at all and like I said, there's so much more.  

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-secrets.html

[Anonymous]

"AA convinces people that they are powerless over alcohol and they'll DIE if they leave. "


Not just alcohol but everything from eating, to sex, romantic relationships, family, friends, jobs, et.

[Ursus]

Look, just substitute in the word "broccoli" for each time "AA" is mentioned, and you'll quickly see just how ridiculous it all is...

[Anonymous]

So what would you propose instead of AA?



Oz girl

[Anonymous]

Star quoted a former Alcoholics Anonymous member who claimed that Wilson attended AA meetings regularly in 2003.

"Owen was very dedicated to AA and to living a clean life," the source told Star. "I knew him when he was sober, and to see him slip back into his disease was tough."

http://www.nydailynews.com/gossip/2007/ ... e_try.html


So much for anonymous!

[Anne Bonney]

So what would you propose instead of AA?



Oz girl

Any of these or a combination. http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-let ... what_works

The biggest thing, if....IF you really are convinced that you cannot drink at all.  Don't.  It really is that simple.  I know how all the AAers and even professionals now that AA has gotten into the mainstream believe in the 'disease concept' of addiction, but it's just not true.

Treatment doesn't work.  At least it doesn't work any better than doing absolutely nothing at all.  I realize how difficult this is to believe and how it  will really touch a nerve with the AA peeps, but it's true nontheless.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

And AA's own George Valliant did a study on AA and found that it was more dangerous for a person to participate in AA than not.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... l#Vaillant





I realize that I keep citing AO as a reference.  The reason I do that with confidence is that I've never seen anyone, maybe other than Maia, who has researched, indexed and sourced every single piece of information that he puts out there like he does.  I defy anyone to challenge his sourcing and research.