Can we throw it away and start over?

[nimdA]

Fo' sho'!

[Anonymous]

The love affair with inpatient/outpatient programs IMO is misguided. Yes they strip you of dignity and yes they strip you of your first and most important fundamental right of freedom of choice. You can't leave unless they say you can. Most kids brought in come from the hospital after suicide attempt or juvie anyways so it's not like it's some bastion of freedom within the trouled teen industry. The reason I talk about my private program experience more than my own experiences in hospitasl is because it's less traumatic and easier to talk about. So I can definitely see botyh sides to this argument. They are two different, yet very similar ways of degrading and convincing people they are shit, and need to be pooper scoopered out of the way of the better people in society.

I don't know about a love affair, but the fact is, sometimes people decide they need help. So where do they go? Not to some place that strips them of their dignity or freedom of choice, or that tries to convince them they're shit. That's not treatment -- that's a program! Even if the facility looks like a psych hospital instead of a boarding school, that's still a program. I wouldn't voluntarily go to such a place, would you? Would any adult? Then why should a kid choose to go there?

Real treatment is not part of the TT industry, just like real medical care is not something you get from a con man who pretends to be a doctor. Real treatment is never forced on someone against their will.

[nimdA]

My posts have been about solutions. If we flame every single "program" to the ground, where do all the kids go? Foster homes? As you've said they're crap. With their parents? Well, I guess that would be best, force parents to actually learn how to be parents. Let kids roam the streets? What about kids who are adjudicated by the courts? What about kids who are victims of real child abuse?

Why would you want kids who have suffered real child abuse to go to programs? Don't you think they've suffered enough?

[nimdA]

I hope this Real Abuse thing you mentioned isn't your way of saying there are degrees of abuse. That would be massively full of fail to even utter such a statement.

[Anonymous]

The love affair with inpatient/outpatient programs IMO is misguided. Yes they strip you of dignity and yes they strip you of your first and most important fundamental right of freedom of choice. You can't leave unless they say you can. Most kids brought in come from the hospital after suicide attempt or juvie anyways so it's not like it's some bastion of freedom within the trouled teen industry. The reason I talk about my private program experience more than my own experiences in hospitasl is because it's less traumatic and easier to talk about. So I can definitely see botyh sides to this argument. They are two different, yet very similar ways of degrading and convincing people they are shit, and need to be pooper scoopered out of the way of the better people in society.

I don't know about a love affair, but the fact is, sometimes people decide they need help. So where do they go? Not to some place that strips them of their dignity or freedom of choice, or that tries to convince them they're shit. That's not treatment -- that's a program! Even if the facility looks like a psych hospital instead of a boarding school, that's still a program. I wouldn't voluntarily go to such a place, would you? Would any adult? Then why should a kid choose to go there?

Real treatment is not part of the TT industry, just like real medical care is not something you get from a con man who pretends to be a doctor. Real treatment is never forced on someone against their will.

People voluntarily sign up for cults, like scientology that does precisely this. So I think people can get into situation that they might have underestimated, especially when what is being sold is "help". I guess this is more of a wording argument than any, what do we call institutions that are based on tearing down in order to rebuild, right now I suppose we call them programs, but they really do take so many other forms and shapes people should be careful. I would try not to go to such a place voluntarily no, but it does happen all the time. Once you 'sign your rights away' , you can be screwed. This is coming from someone who was forced time and time again, as an adult, to stay in so called treatment facilities by non-judicial means, the doctors just write orders based on lies families tell them. I agree that people need an option to get help, but the word psychiatric hospital is not something I generally think of when trying to brainstorm on real world solutions to the placement all these parents are making. The truth is most of the placements in private programs are unnecessary, the way a kid gets into a psychiatric hospital, and a program, are somewhat different in my experience. A parent cannot walk down to the local inpatient and say my kid is pissing me off, we had a divorce, please take them for two years.. it just doesn't work that way. These private programs I think are a solution to a problem, a parent problem of upper middle class white people, not a problem with their kid. Really any institution that is trying to force kids into a mold is doomed to failure, so then they just blame it on the kids.. oh, they are druggies and addicts, doomed to a lifetime of failure. That way when nobody gets "fixed" they can still keep on selling their product.  If any other industry tried this scheme they would of been out of the marketplace long ago, but this is 100% emotion based, facts, reality and reason have no place in the TTI.

[Anonymous]

People voluntarily sign up for cults, like scientology that does precisely this. So I think people can get into situation that they might have underestimated, especially when what is being sold is "help". I guess this is more of a wording argument than any, what do we call institutions that are based on tearing down in order to rebuild, right now I suppose we call them programs, but they really do take so many other forms and shapes people should be careful. I would try not to go to such a place voluntarily no, but it does happen all the time. Once you 'sign your rights away' , you can be screwed. This is coming from someone who was forced time and time again, as an adult, to stay in so called treatment facilities by non-judicial means, the doctors just write orders based on lies families tell them. I agree that people need an option to get help, but the word psychiatric hospital is not something I generally think of when trying to brainstorm on real world solutions to the placement all these parents are making. The truth is most of the placements in private programs are unnecessary, the way a kid gets into a psychiatric hospital, and a program, are somewhat different in my experience. A parent cannot walk down to the local inpatient and say my kid is pissing me off, we had a divorce, please take them for two years.. it just doesn't work that way. These private programs I think are a solution to a problem, a parent problem of upper middle class white people, not a problem with their kid. Really any institution that is trying to force kids into a mold is doomed to failure, so then they just blame it on the kids.. oh, they are druggies and addicts, doomed to a lifetime of failure. That way when nobody gets "fixed" they can still keep on selling their product.  If any other industry tried this scheme they would of been out of the marketplace long ago, but this is 100% emotion based, facts, reality and reason have no place in the TTI.

Sounds like you're describing AA.  AA and the medical profession's complete acceptance of that particular cult has yielded millions of "members" and has ingrained the "powerless" approach into the collective conscience.  Most programs or therapy for kids involves some form or another of AA or directly quotes and uses it.  People are sent there for aftercare when they've finished one of the handy dandy 30 day programs and if someone objects to going, they're told they're "in denial".    This goes much deeper than just the TTI.

[blombro]

1.  I would like to apologize for any of my earlier posting that may have sounded like I was a shill for Summit.  I had a good experience with one social worker who was clearly doing things under the schools radar like the referral to a radical mental health support group.  I didn't quite expect that a place like Summit would get flamed in this way given the weekend passes and cell phone usage and such, but your points are well taken and again I would like to apologize.

2.  I'm not suggesting that we put kids from one abusive situation to another.  Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose?  What would the choice be?  Maybe some kids would rather take their chances with their pops since that's what they know, and for those kids that choice should be respected, or at least offer them alternative options to the one that I just gave.  Widespread system reform is necessary.  It's the environment of the system that makes a place like Summit seem attractive from the outside.  Creation of more organizations like Misled Youth www.misled-youth.org might be a start to give youth real choice.

3.  By "Real Abuse", I mean abuse as opposed to say something like educational neglect, where child welfare is called in because the kid isn't going to school.

[Anonymous]

Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose?

I would choose legal emancipation. If the court or parents didn't agree, there's always the option of disappearing off the grid until you're 18.

[Anonymous]

I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.

[Anonymous]

I really wonder if they think the kids forced into the adolescent psychiatric programs are stupid. Their morning appointment is with a psychiatrist who tells them they have ______ disorder, _______ personality disorder, with ______ symptoms, plus you have ________ to top it off. Then you are told in order to solve these problems you must take 350 mg of ______ per day, 5 mg of______ per day, 25 mg of _______ four times per day, 60MG of _________ six times daily, and a half dozen other ones for good measure. Then that afternoon you are told to sit alone and read the whole NA big book, and write about it. Then at night you find yourself in an NA group, led by volunteer lay people brought in from outside a hospital full of highly educated psychologists who specialize in adolescent mental health. But all this knowledge, all this resource, it's simply brought to the common denominator of NA, all druggies are the same, they use drugs because drugs are evil and they have a disease. So the duality, of being diagnosed with problems by a psychiatrist, and given drugs to solve such problems. Then the same day being taught that chemicals and drugs are not a solution to your problems. It makes no sense, at all. At this point is when a kid realizes the hypocrisy of it all and finally realizes what they really are. A commodity. They are bought, sold, transfered, and experimented on and because of this many other people are making a living and the even higher ups are doing extremely well, the CEO of the companies who own it. It's a pyramid scheme, built on the backs of teenagers just trying to make sense of the fucked up world they find themselves in when their eyes start to finally open. Their parents don't want them anymore, the only people willing to show them some affection is those people who are obsessed with proving that this child has problems. So in order to placate that normal human function of wanting love, these kids are forced to absorb their labeled dysfunctions . Look at all the attention they get if they admit to being dysfunctional, suddenly everybody likes them again. If they don't admit it they are shunned, and put on more and more meds until they are literally a walking zombie. Or they take a beautiful girl brought in for self image issues, and force them on Zyprexa which causes them to gain 100 pounds, and they had issues before? The plain cold hard truth is very few people are going to love a kid that isn't their own, the ones who do don't go asking for money , they probably just adopt kids or something. Money is what our society is about, follow the money and you see the real perpetrators of this sham. House of cards built on the admitted dysfunctions of normal people. They have turned a normal human behavior into a dysfcuntion and sell a treatment that does nothing. |Money from nowhere, that is what this drug war is all about.

Ding ding ding ding ding ding!!!  We have a winner!
 :tup:  :tup:  ::cheers::

[Anonymous]

Blombro,  how about having DADDY arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned for RAPE?  Then this child could live at home safely.
That's what needs to happen to RAPISTS, don't you think?

Why should a child need to make the choice: Live at home with a rapist father; OR go to some neglectful program, like Summit?

Give me a fucking break.

[blombro]

Geez, no need for the hostility.  

I accept my logic was flawed.

As long as you got the general point that we need to go after more than just the programs, but the systems that feed kids into these programs as well.

[SettleForNothingLess]

Voluntary treatment to me is something on the lines of Stockholms Syndrome,
Monday March 24, 2003 Previous | Next
 
Dear Yahoo!:
What is "Stockholm Syndrome"?
Ben
Cincinnati, Ohio  
 
Dear Ben:
Stockholm Syndrome describes the behavior of kidnap victims who, over time, become sympathetic to their captors. The name derives from a 1973 hostage incident in Stockholm, Sweden. At the end of six days of captivity in a bank, several kidnap victims actually resisted rescue attempts, and afterwards refused to testify against their captors.
While some people are suggesting the recent Elizabeth Smart kidnapping sounds like a case of Stockholm Syndrome, the most famous incident in the U.S. involved the kidnapped heiress Patty Hearst. Captured by a radical political group known as the Symbionese Liberation Army in 1974, Ms. Hearst eventually became an accomplice of the group, taking on an assumed name and assisting them in several bank robberies. After her re-capture, she denounced the group and her involvement.

What causes Stockholm Syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.
It's important to note that these symptoms occur under tremendous emotional and often physical duress. The behavior is considered a common survival strategy for victims of interpersonal abuse, and has been observed in battered spouses, abused children, prisoners of war, and concentration camp survivors.

[Anonymous]

Blombro, as long as you make stupid remarks like:

Given the choice of being raped and having your life constantly threatened by your dad or being neglected by staff at Summit what would you choose?  What would the choice be?  

I reserve the right to be as hostile as I please when responding to your stupidity.

Rapists belong in prison.  And no child should be place in any type "program" that is neglectful.
What part of this do you not understand?

[psy]

Voluntary treatment to me is something on the lines of Stockholms Syndrome

What you're talking about is an example of the learned helplessness I was talking about earlier.