Author Topic: question on Zero Tolerance  (Read 2549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« on: June 30, 2007, 11:49:38 PM »
Many newspaper articles on kids who have been victims of suspension  from school over Zero Tolerance technicalities have mentined parents suing because a suspension can apparently effect their otherwise good kid's chances of college choice. How does this work? Can universities access a kids school records? Is entry banned because this may have resulted in a run in with the law? (schools calling cops etc)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2007, 12:26:22 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Many newspaper articles on kids who have been victims of suspension  from school over Zero Tolerance technicalities have mentined parents suing because a suspension can apparently effect their otherwise good kid's chances of college choice. How does this work? Can universities access a kids school records? Is entry banned because this may have resulted in a run in with the law? (schools calling cops etc)


I personally have never heard of school 'suspensions' interfering with college choice, but perhaps things have changed.
Dunno if college's can access all of a kid's records, but as for any criminal records, those can be sealed when the kid is 18, provided they have fulfilled the obligations of their sentence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline nimdA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2007, 03:20:32 AM »
Isn't the permanent record an urban myth much like the red dye in the swimming pool?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am the metal pig.

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-3
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2007, 03:23:14 AM »
US Public schools are institutions of education and bastions of freedom. Koolaid flows from the water fountains and the kids sing songs as they dance from class to class, nothing to see here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-3
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2007, 11:56:37 AM »
Zero tolerance is a policy of expulsion. Any type of weapon or drug is what is supposed to include. Some kids have been caught up in this "Zero tolerance" policy for very benign "weapons" and small amounts of pot and so that's why their parents are mad, where do they send their kid after that? Tranquility Bay?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline nimdA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 12:42:51 PM »
Well I guess I sort of agree with a Zero Tolerance policy for weapons in school. Not pocket knives, but actual serious blades and firearms of any sort.

Definitely having kids getting in trouble over retarded crap like a swiss army knife seems stupid. If I was a teacher the most I'd do if I saw one would be to take it and tell the kid to come pick it up after school and to please leave it at home in the future.

Comes down to the core problems with American public schools or any school for that matter. With schools being so damn boring what motivates kids to actually want to learn?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am the metal pig.

Offline hanzomon4

  • Posts: 1334
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2007, 12:09:06 AM »
It can bring down GPA's and in some cases cause kids to repeat the same grade. You don't get to make up work missed while suspended and for very competitive students or those barley making it it can be a killer. In the south they love to use this fear of GPA loss due to suspension to get kids to agree to a paddling instead of suspension, perverts if you ask me.

I've never seen a successful zero tolerance lawsuit but many people are starting to curse the policies and some districts are changing policies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]

Offline nimdA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2007, 02:20:45 AM »
Christ I'm glad I'm not a teacher in the US.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am the metal pig.

Offline Truth Searcher

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 225
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2007, 06:25:45 AM »
Quote
With schools being so damn boring what motivates kids to actually want to learn


I have thought long and hard about this statement.  I'm not sure I agree with you.  My kids went to the same school district that hubby and I attended.  I'm pretty sure that school has not changed that much.  We sat in desks.  We attended lectures.  We read from text books.  We did our homework and  jumped through the hoops.  And yet it is true that my kids were bored by the whole process.  I don't recall being bored by school.  I can't say that I relished the experience ... but bored was not a part of my vocabulary in reference to school.  In fact ... it was not really a part of my vocabulary in reference to life.

So ... I have to wonder if kids being bored by the 'traditional' educational process is more about the kids.  More specifically I wonder if the electronic era has left our kids bored with most everything.  With work ... with school ... with free time.  My kids grew up in an age where a screen entertained them ... alot.  Whether that was a video ... tv ... or computer screen.  And when it came time for them to sit down and read a text book it was admittedly ... boring.

I know this is a little off subject ... but this topic really interests me.

As far as the zero tolerance policy goes ... I have to agree with it.  The school system has become by and large a day care institution.  They have become a social work agency.  They have become sex educators.  They have become our cultures faux family.  They shouldn't become juvenile detention centers as well.  

If kids want to come to school and pursue education ... great.  If they want to carry weapons, deal drugs and disrupt the educational process for others they need to go hang out on the streets.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;The test of the morality of a society is what is does for it\'s children\"

Deitrich Bonhoeffer

Offline Oz girl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1459
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2007, 07:15:55 AM »
I would agree if the kid is actually carrying a weapon, dealing an illegal drug or severely violent but consider this
Since the columbine shootings
-19 states have made it so that a kid can be expelled for being disruptive in class
-23 states expel can kids for fighting
-12 states can expell kids for "making threats" even if they are in jest.
-Earlier thisyear a 6 year old was cuffed by cops and taken to the police station for having a tantrum (article posted somewhere in the free for all section)
i refer you to the following articles & websites
http://www.ztnightmares.com
http://archive.salon.com/mwt/feature/20 ... tolerance/
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19249868/

it is good to note the tide is beginning to turn against this ridiculous policy. But kids deserve to also learn about punishments fitting the crime and should ultimately be able to take a headache pill, carry butter knives for lunch and drive their cars without having to worry about being pulled over in case there is a long forgotten pair of scissors under the seat. they should certainly be able to talk about weapons without being in trouble.
Perhaps kids hate school not because it is boring but because it is terrifying. Drawing phallic symbols should be met with a roll of the eye. Class clowns and smart alecks are not criminals. They have the right to grow up in peace
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-3
    • View Profile
permenent record
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2007, 08:14:01 AM »
I work as a HS Vice Principal-and I see a lot of kids with really serious behavior problems, so I though I'd check to see just what all the fuss about programs, etc. was all about.  I have to say-if half of what people are saying is true, then the program owners and parents who send kids there should be convicted and sentenced to long terms for child abuse and conspiracy.  Or worse.  I have gang members I have to deal with who don't deserve what I've heard about places such as Thayer or Tranquility Bay!  I'm retiring in a few years, and if ever there was a cause worth getting involved in, this is it!  I've spent my life trying to work with kids-I can't see my stopping now.

Anyway, as to permanent record-colleges are now requesting the student's discipline records as part of the admission package-and refusing to consider them without it, or a statement from me (or my equivilent numbers in other districts) that there isn't one.  They are getting skittish about possible troublemakers on campus, date rape, assault, athletes running wild, etc.  So yes, we have to keep discipline records permenently now.  And transfer them with the student if he goes to another school.

Carter
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5602
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Re: permenent record
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2007, 10:01:44 AM »
Quote from: ""New Visitor""
I work as a HS Vice Principal-and I see a lot of kids with really serious behavior problems, so I though I'd check to see just what all the fuss about programs, etc. was all about.  I have to say-if half of what people are saying is true, then the program owners and parents who send kids there should be convicted and sentenced to long terms for child abuse and conspiracy.  Or worse.  I have gang members I have to deal with who don't deserve what I've heard about places such as Thayer or Tranquility Bay!  I'm retiring in a few years, and if ever there was a cause worth getting involved in, this is it!  I've spent my life trying to work with kids-I can't see my stopping now.


I hope you're sincere.  We could use your help.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164659
  • Karma: +3/-3
    • View Profile
Re: permenent record
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2007, 12:16:39 PM »
Quote from: ""New Visitor""
I work as a HS Vice Principal-and I see a lot of kids with really serious behavior problems, so I though I'd check to see just what all the fuss about programs, etc. was all about.  I have to say-if half of what people are saying is true, then the program owners and parents who send kids there should be convicted and sentenced to long terms for child abuse and conspiracy.  Or worse.  I have gang members I have to deal with who don't deserve what I've heard about places such as Thayer or Tranquility Bay!  I'm retiring in a few years, and if ever there was a cause worth getting involved in, this is it!  I've spent my life trying to work with kids-I can't see my stopping now.

Anyway, as to permanent record-colleges are now requesting the student's discipline records as part of the admission package-and refusing to consider them without it, or a statement from me (or my equivilent numbers in other districts) that there isn't one.  They are getting skittish about possible troublemakers on campus, date rape, assault, athletes running wild, etc.  So yes, we have to keep discipline records permenently now.  And transfer them with the student if he goes to another school.

Carter


Mr Carter, I can't believe you posted here!! Everybody, this is MY OLD HIGH school principal, what the chances!! Mr Carter -- how are you doing, hows the school doing? I'm sorry I was causing trouble and got kicked out to TB but at least you believed us when we got back and told you !
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Karass

  • Posts: 186
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2007, 01:32:48 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
I personally have never heard of school 'suspensions' interfering with college choice, but perhaps things have changed.
Dunno if college's can access all of a kid's records, but as for any criminal records, those can be sealed when the kid is 18, provided they have fulfilled the obligations of their sentence.


Think again. In our local school district, Zero Tolerance means a kid can be suspended and transferred to an alternative (loser) school for the rest of the semester for anything that violates the school drug & weapons policy. Obviously this affects a student's GPA, what courses are available for them to take, what semester or year they will graduate...so yes, it affects their college options.

Some parents will say "that makes sense...keep the schools safe." Except that a Bic lighter is considered a "weapon," as is any sort of blade, including the one on a nail clipper (just like at the airport). Drugs? Not just the obvious ones, but things like Tylenol, Midol or any sort of OTC medication.

Zero Tolerance is just one of the dumber examples of the miserable failure of the War on Drugs, better known as the War on Teens.

As for permanent records being expunged after age 18, it's not that simple. I seriously doubt any record can disappear forever, although some records can become more difficult to access. My kid had his juvenile court record expunged after he turned 18, but guess what? The thing he most wanted to make disappear still shows up on his DMV record, for all insurance companies to see. It will stay there for 4 years, just like a traffic ticket would. So what good was the expunging? BTW, the incident had nothing to do with driving. In my state, any juvenile criminal offense is automatically attached to a minor driver's DMV record, and it doesn't just go away when he/she turns 18 -- regardless of what the courts do or don't do with those juvenile records.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline nimdA

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1218
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
question on Zero Tolerance
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2007, 07:27:01 PM »
Nail, hammer, etc.. Agree with ^.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am the metal pig.