Update on secretprisonsforteens

[Oz girl]

Nope we don't consider withholding cigarettes, liquor, or cell phones abusive. What you read in survivor statements is what we consider abuse. I won't go over the bullet points because the who knows them.

perhaps there is this one woman from grovers corner or some such.... :wink:

[Anonymous]

Get a grip you guys!!!  There are some real issues involved in these places regarding diminishment of ego, punative measures being disguised as therapy, etc. and yet you all are venting about cigarettes & alcohol.  People are not going to take you seriously.  Many people who are in these places DO have addiction problems and a mature person would realize that certain rules are there to protect not only the individual but the group.  Do these Europeans believe they are being abused when they can't smoke at a movie or in a restaurant in the US?  I don't think so.  I also think this issue is a red herring.  On a basic level people are in these places because they cannot effectively function and are often dangerous to themselves or others.  As a result, behaviors have to change.  Now that is a different issue than the methods used to effect change and I do have a problem with some of those.

As a sideline, as a new member to the forum, some of your language and your avatars indicate that you don't "get it" and are more interested in self-indulgent, angry, angst-filled rants than real change.  It's like the few environmentalist who dress up in dolphin suits and look like kooks making it harder for those of us who are  trying to bring serious issues to the forefront and to an audience who is suspicious.  You're going to be dismissed by the population you're trying to reach.

[nimdA]

Get a grip you guys!!!  There are some real issues involved in these places regarding diminishment of ego, punative measures being disguised as therapy, etc. and yet you all are venting about cigarettes & alcohol.  People are not going to take you seriously.  Many people who are in these places DO have addiction problems and a mature person would realize that certain rules are there to protect not only the individual but the group.  Do these Europeans believe they are being abused when they can't smoke at a movie or in a restaurant in the US?  I don't think so.  I also think this issue is a red herring.  On a basic level people are in these places because they cannot effectively function and are often dangerous to themselves or others.  As a result, behaviors have to change.  Now that is a different issue than the methods used to effect change and I do have a problem with some of those.

As a sideline, as a new member to the forum, some of your language and your avatars indicate that you don't "get it" and are more interested in self-indulgent, angry, angst-filled rants than real change.  It's like the few environmentalist who dress up in dolphin suits and look like kooks making it harder for those of us who are  trying to bring serious issues to the forefront and to an audience who is suspicious.  You're going to be dismissed by the population you're trying to reach.

I'm thinking you don't get it much either. These kids are being killed and abused. Why the fuck would we be happy about that?

[Covergaard]

Maybe if I painted you the picture of Denmark 2007, you will understand why keeping back alcohol from a 16 year old teenager would be abuse.

First in Denmark every 16 old teenager can go to the city hall and obtain an ID-card, which gives access to buy every sort of alcohol you can think off. There is not limit at all once a person has this card.

Second we do not have have a lower limit on alcohol consumption. An old danish tradition calls for teenagers drinking alcohol for the first time when they are celebrating the day where they have been in church and have confirmed their Christian belief. From then on they can negotiate with their parents and the parents can legally give them what they can agree on. The age for this event vary depenting on the countryside (13-15).

But we have seen drunken teens younger. Reports from our Night owls teams have seen drunken children down to age 10. Such parents would receive a warning letter from the police or even risk being called up to the city hall in order to give the entire family an alcohol overhaul. Children learn a lot by seing. As a parent you can not pour beer after beer down in the crater and teach your children soberness.

In Denmark we have no treatment centers where you can hold a child against its will, unless it has done something criminal, but I have to say that alcohol related deaths among teenagers and even deaths caused by ordinary people committing DUI are so rare that such a story make frontpage news all over Denmark. In all 2006 the number of people killed due to alcohol related car accidents were 73. All of Denmark - the entire year.

Why have chosen to make alcohol available for our youth? The main reason was that we would learn them to know the dangers of alcohol before they get access to the most lethal instrument, normal people can get hold on - a car. We wanted to force parents to discuss this issue. The only way is to let the teenagers buy their alcohol on their own. And it works. The numbers show it. Out of 100,000 people about 80 is in jail. In the states, we are talking 10 times that number. I do not have the number for people killed per 5,000,000 people in your country, but I just guess that the number is higher than 73.

Alcohol is also serving another purpose. Socializing! Denmark is a small country. We need to let our youth meet people from other countries. That is why our new 12 point grade system is made in such a way that a foreign student have to do less work to get access to an university than a young Dane has to do and that is why the most important element at our universities are the Fridaybar, where students meet over some beers or glasses of wine after study. Most Danes do even choose their university depending of how well-equipped the Fredaybar is.

We are a small country which almost none natural ressources. Our way of surviving is a combination of networking and innovation. A lot of your companies have invested in Denmark like Microsoft and Intel.

But our way of networking include alcohol. Not drinking binge, but a beer or two. However that does also mean that you have no business of working or studying in Denmark, if you can not join in. None will hurt you, but none would speak to you. It will be like being on a speaking ban. So if you for a personal or religious reason don't drink alcohol, stay away for your own sake.

I could of course mind my own business and let you live your life, but the reason I came here was because WWASP and Aspen are working to force your culture down over our head with shows like Brat Camp etc. WWASP has offered the authorities to take teenagers from UK to TB just in order to show that all the solutions they have in UK does not work nearly as good as WWASP can go. Aspen have shipped teenagers from UK, Germany and the Netherlands to Utah with the same message. Use our double-standard way of living and imprison your children. Then all would be good.

When we can show good results, a low number of casulties both in our roads and in generally due to violence, alcohol and deaths, I dont thing that the cultural export should continue and taking basic elements away from a child from another culture are abuse.

Brat Camp and similar concepts reminds me about the  Rabbit-Proof Fence where Aboriginal children separated from their parents by the State. They were also forced to live by rules totally strange and unnatural to them. European children forced to stay in the State must experience such a stay exactly as those children from the stolen generation.

I hope you understand how different our cultures are.