Author Topic: Thoughts abouts Virginia High  (Read 2579 times)

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Offline Covergaard

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« on: April 21, 2007, 04:19:16 AM »
I don't live in the States and being a Dane with a family I would properly not go there anymore due to too strict security on the travel. (I would properly be too exhausted due to the journey itself in order to enjoy anything your country can offer).

But I can understand your pain, because some 10 years we had a shooting in a school in Jutland, where 2-3 people were killed. The offender was also an isolated guy, who went berserk one day. Of course it is a lot more difficult to get a hand on a gun in Denmark, but it is possible, so we also live with that danger.

What troubles me is the reaction your president has made. It seems that he is acting out of panic. That's why I put this letter to the editor in several newspapers in Denmark yesterday.

---
Thought about  Virginia Tech.

When prevention are in the risk of turning into abuse - about President Bush and his initiative.

http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article291669.ece (In Danish) and
http://www.examiner.com/a-682640~Virgin ... e_law.html

Oblivious it is difficult to stand in the shadows of the tragedy of Virginia High and warn against abuse which can take place under forced treatment of mental illnesses.

Of course we all wish that we could turn back time and get this young man treated before he - helped by the lax gun laws - could purchase weapons enough to wipe out half the town.

Still, the warning must be put forward. Already before the tragedy President Bush had introduced a new bill for forced screening for mental illnesses of children when they enter school. The purpose of this bill is to get calm classes when the most unruly children are medicated so they just can be placed in a corner where they can drool al day long. Calm classes mean increased performance, but it is fair to let some children pay the price just so the majority can perform extra 5 percent?

And it is not a small quantity of medication a lot of them get. Often they have to eat laxative in order to ease the pressure on their bowels.

They had been very unfortunate with this offender. The course up to the tragedy makes it sound like the parents and the school had no opportunities to treat this young man. But that is not the standard in the states. The fact is that we are talking about 4000000 people on Ritalin. We are talking 100000 teenagers being forced on treatment by the widespread outsourcing of normal teenager issues labeled as mental problems.

Companies like WWASP, Aspen Education and CEDU charges up to 30.000 Danish Crowns per month’s full-service packet which include the pickup of the child in his own home. The parents don't have to get a diagnosis by a certified person. They just have to pay. The therapists will then prove that the parents are right when the child - in order to survive - copies the problems of the other children in treatment and confesses to problems they don't have.

We can write off this hysterically development as typical American, but the hard fact is that the consumption of medicine used on children has increased in Denmark, because the market in the states has reached its limit, so the industry has to look for markets outside the states. On of these markets is Denmark. Who had thought about TV-advertising in Danish Television for drugs against depression just 10 years ago?

Yes, it is difficult to argument against forced treatment after this tragedy, but we have to ask your self why everyone seems to walk around having pain in their souls. Is it because they can not get rid of their troubles? Do they have to cut themselves to let the pain come out because their families are busy doing their own stuff?

We all have a backpack where we put our problems in until we have time to solve them. It becomes heaver and heaver to carry. Sometime you have to empty it and there are so many techniques to do so. Some can run or bike for a long time so they can work their problems in their mind in a in a state of endorphin intoxication. Others need to load their problems on to another person (family member or therapist). Regardless of the techniques they choose they are all good. Just the weight of the backpack is lifted so it can be carried again.

I believe that the best method of avoiding a similar tragedy in the future is that we join together as families again. We should force our self to hear our children out regardless how much we differ in opinion. Secondary that we let our classmates and work colleagues live the life they choose right (inside the limits our laws). We don't have to interact with them all time, but from time to time we have to let them know that we respect them as classmates and colleagues. We should be able to praise people without feeling a loss in ourselves. Who would lose something by giving thumbs up?

We don't have to medicate our society. It is not sick. It is just partial out of order because we are too busy doing our own stuff.

---
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Offline Antigen

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 03:22:40 PM »
WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commen ... index.html
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Offline Deborah

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 03:43:32 PM »
Dr. Peter Breggin
04.19.2007
The Real "Mental Health Lessons" from Virginia Tech
 
Focusing on Virginia Tech mass murderer Cho as a disturbed mental patient has led media analysts to ponder how he could have been more readily identified by the mental health system. But Cho is not someone who slipped beneath the psychiatric radar. Instead, he was frequently detected as a large object on the screen.

On separate occasions, he was involuntarily hospitalized, sent for psychological evaluation, and referred to the university counseling center. Consistent with getting him more psychiatric "help," experts have also opined on how he might have benefited from medication. These are all the wrong lessons.

The mental health system was fully alert to Cho's existence and to serious manifestations of dangerous behavior. A faculty member of the English department was so frightened by Cho's behavior that she insisted on having him pulled him out of class. The police and the counseling center were notified and ultimately Cho was given individual tutoring, instead of quick removal from the campus. Also, a number of students called the campus police, probably at least twice in regard to his stalking behavior. Furthermore, he had previously been involuntarily hospitalized in Virginia as a danger to himself and others.

The answer to vengeful, violent people is not more mental health screening or more potent mental health interventions. Reliance on the whole range of this system from counseling to involuntary treatment failed. There is not a shred of scientific evidence that locking people up against their will or otherwise "treating" them reduces violence. As we'll see, quite the opposite is true.

So what was needed? Police intervention. Almost certainly, the police were hampered in taking appropriate actions by being encouraged to view Cho as a potential psychiatric patient rather than as a perpetrator. It's not politically correct to bring criminal charges against someone who is "mentally ill" and it's not politically correct to prosecute him or to remove him from the campus. Yet that's what was needed to protect the students. Two known episodes of stalking, setting a fire, and his threatening behavior in class should have been more than enough for the university administration to bring charges against him and to send him off campus.

Police need to be encouraged and empowered to treat potentially dangerous people more as criminals than as patients. In particular, men stalking women should be handled as definitively as any perpetrator of hate crimes. Regardless of whether the victims want to press charges, the police should. Cho shouldn't have been allowed to get away with it a second time.

How would a police action have affected Cho? Would it have humiliated him and made him more violent? There's no way to have certainty about this, but anyone with experience dealing with threatening people knows that a good dose of "reality," a confrontation with the law, is much more of a wake up call and a deterrent than therapeutic coddling. Furthermore, involuntary psychiatric treatment is one of the more humiliating experiences in American society, and tends to make people more angry, not less.

Mental health interventions do not protect society because the person is almost always quickly discharged because his insurance coverage has run out or because mental health professionals, who as a group have no particular capacity to make such determinations, will decide that the patient is no longer a danger to himself or others. Indeed, in December 2005, when the university obtained a temporary detention order against Cho, a magistrate referred him for a mental health evaluation that found "his insight and judgment are normal." Need I say more about the hazards of relying on mental health screening and evaluation to identify dangerous perpetrators--even after they have already been threatening people?

Psychiatry's last resort for presumably violent people is involuntary hospitalization. Not only does it almost always lead to rapid release, it does not help the involuntary patient. Coerced treatment is not perceived or experienced as "helpful" by the recipient but as unjust bullying. If coercion accomplishes anything, it teaches the "patient" to stay far away from all providers of mental health services.

And what about drugs for the treatment of violence? The FDA has not approved any medications for the control of violence because there are no such medications. Yes, it is possible to temporarily immobilize mind and body alike with a shot of an "antipsychotic" drug like Haldol; but that only works as long as the person is virtually paralyzed and confined--and forced drugging invariably breeds more resentment.

Instead of offering the promise of reducing violence, all psychiatric drugs carry the potential risk of driving the individual into violent madness. For example, both the newer antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft and Celexa, and the antipsychotic drugs such as Risperdal and Zyprexa, cause a disorder caused akathisia--a terrible inner sensation of agitation accompanied by a compulsion to move about. Akathisia is known to drive people to suicide and to aggression. Indeed, these tragic outcomes of drug-induced akathisia are so well documented that they are described in the most establishment psychiatric book of all, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

For the past fifteen years or more, I've been writing about the capacity of psychiatric drugs to cause mayhem, murder and suicide. In early 2005 the FDA finally issued a warning that antidepressants cause both suicidality and violence. For example, the FDA's new mandated warning label for antidepressants states that these drugs produce "anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania, and mania."

Note the reference to "irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity" in the label or package insert for antidepressants. That's a formula for violence. Note the mention of akathisia, another source of both violence and suicide. And finally, note the reference to mania, yet another drug-induced syndrome associated with violence and suicide.

As a psychiatrist and medical expert, I have personally evaluated dozens of cases of individuals driven to violence by psychiatric drugs of every type, but most commonly the newer antidepressants. One of the cases I evaluated, the Columbine shooter Eric Harris, looks the most like Cho. Both were very emotionally disturbed in an extremely violent fashion for a prolonged period of time. For the entire year that Eric Harris was evolving his manic-like violence, he was taking Luvox, a drug known to cause mania at a high rate in young people

In my book Reclaiming Our Children, I analyzed the clinical and scientific reasons for believing that Eric Harris's violence was caused by prescribed Luvox and I've also testified to the same under oath in deposition in a case related to Columbine. In my book the Antidepressant Fact Book, I also warned that stopping antidepressants can be as dangerous as starting them, since they can cause very disturbing and painful withdrawal reactions.

We have not been informed whether or not Cho was taking psychiatric drugs at the time he unleashed his violence; but even if he wasn't, he might have been tipped over into violent madness weeks or months earlier by a drug like Prozac, Paxil, or Zoloft. He could also have been undergoing severe drug withdrawal. Investigators should set a high priority on obtaining and publishing Cho's psychiatric drug history.

To focus on Cho as a "mental patient" or "schizophrenic" distracts from the real need to enforce security on college campuses, or in any setting, by reacting definitively to lesser acts of violence before they escalate. It also maligns people with serious mental problems, the vast majority who are, above else, inoffensive and overly docile.

The violence unleashed on the Virginia Tech campus should not lead to calls for more mental health screening, more mental health interventions, or more drugs. Instead, the violent rampage should confirm that psychiatric interventions don't prevent violence and instead they can cause it. Early on, Cho should have been confronted by the police and by university administrators with the reality that his behavior was unacceptable and he should have been suspended. In other words, he should have been treated as a criminal who was stalking women, and as an obviously threatening individual, not as a potential mental patient. These measures might have confronted him with sufficient reality to nip his violence in the bud and more certainly would have removed him from the circumstances that the he found intolerably stimulating, while also removing him from so many targets of opportunity.

My scientific papers describing medication-induced violence and some of my cases can be found on www.breggin.com.
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Offline Oz girl

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 08:30:48 PM »
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commen ... index.html


Now now I dont think that opposition to an object that can only be used to cause harm to others is that crazy an idea. I do think that the whole America and Guns thing is something that outsiders will never get. Kind of like the swedish sense of humour or the fact that iin Italy there is nothing wrong with parking your car in the middle of a busy road to go and get a coffee. Afterall I never saw it as odd to live in a country where people are legally abliged to vote before people from other places told me it seemed weird.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline RTP2003

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2007, 08:56:46 PM »
Quote from: ""Antigen's Ghost""
WACO, Texas (CNN) -- Zero tolerance, huh? Gun-free zones, huh? Try this on for size: Columbine gun-free zone, New York City pizza shop gun-free zone, Luby's Cafeteria gun-free zone, Amish school in Pennsylvania gun-free zone and now Virginia Tech gun-free zone.

Anybody see what the evil Brady Campaign and other anti-gun cults have created? I personally have zero tolerance for evil and denial. And America had best wake up real fast that the brain-dead celebration of unarmed helplessness will get you killed every time, and I've about had enough of it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/19/commen ... index.html


That guy's kill count would have been a hell of a lot less if there were more people carrying weapons.  Instead of cowering in fear beneath a desk, waiting to get shot, they could have put an end to the rampage, real quick.....

What's the old adage?  "An armed society is a polite society".  If one or two of the students or professors had been legally allowed to carry a concealed weapon,  I would bet the loss of life would be significantly lower.    All the gun control assholes are coming out of the woodwork, whining for stricter gun laws, when in reality, more guns in the hands of more people is really what is needed.  Sort of like the drug situation---if you want drug abuse and deaths from drug abuse to decline, then legalize the damn things.  If you want mass killings by firearms to go away, arm more people.  Look at it like this:  When the USA was the only kid on the block with an A-bomb, it got used on people.  Twice.  Then Ivan showed up at the playground with his,  and nuclear weapons have not been used in anger since.

More guns and more drugs in the hands of more people is the way to go.
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Offline Antigen

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2007, 06:06:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Now now I dont think that opposition to an object that can only be used to cause harm to others is that crazy an idea. I do think that the whole America and Guns thing is something that outsiders will never get.


Leme see if I can help clear things up a bit. There is no lobby, no not for profit, no contingent or movement against that dreaded killing object. Absolutely no one is trying to eliminate fire arms. What the gun control people are asking for, and getting inch by inch, is total government control of killing force. That only seems like a good idea to people who have a very optimistic view of the nature of government. The rest of us don't trust the bastards w/ that much authority. Better to have everyone armed physically and mentally prepared and accustomed to self defense than to lay it all off on the government and hope they do it right. It actually works out very, very well. We have very little of any serious violence around here and part of the reason is that damned near every household has at least one serious hunter in residence. Guns are everywhere around here and people are so accustomed to factoring that into their caluclations when deciding how big an ass they want to be that polity just becomes automatic.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2007, 08:43:48 AM »
Ive heard this argument before and  I am afraid it does not make any sense to me. If everyone in America *except* pollies and beauraucrats walked around unarmed but up in Washington everyone had their own Uzi I would understand.
But having a blanket law that says unless you need a gun in your line of work (farming etc) you may not keep one in your home or about your person does not seem unreasonable at all. Afterall govt may be bastards but someone makes the law an these are the bastards who do it. Such an extreme distrust comes across as paranoid.There will always be guns in the criminal underworld but this is where they belong. Not in the hands of peaceful ordinary citizens.

The idea of 20 yr old kids walking around a uni with a gun expecting that they will need to arm themselves against a mass murderer seems really odd to me.
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Offline Antigen

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Thoughts abouts Virginia High
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2007, 09:17:59 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Ive heard this argument before and  I am afraid it does not make any sense to me. If everyone in America *except* pollies and beauraucrats walked around unarmed but up in Washington everyone had their own Uzi I would understand.
But having a blanket law that says unless you need a gun in your line of work (farming etc) you may not keep one in your home or about your person does not seem unreasonable at all. Afterall govt may be bastards but someone makes the law an these are the bastards who do it. Such an extreme distrust comes across as paranoid.There will always be guns in the criminal underworld but this is where they belong. Not in the hands of peaceful ordinary citizens.

Paranoid? No. I've just been paying attention.
http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/ ... ctims.html

I know the mindset of the people running our government over here. That's why I don't trust them with sharp objects.

Quote
The idea of 20 yr old kids walking around a uni with a gun expecting that they will need to arm themselves against a mass murderer seems really odd to me.


No, of course you wouldn't expect that because it's so incredibly unlikely that anyone will go postal in your presence.

But let's talk about expectations, shall we? You can expect that people will sometimes be at odds with one another. You can expect people to try and rob each other in various way and to fight over it. You can expect jilted lovers, disgruntled employees and students and others under emotional duress to act out of line sometimes. You can't expect any better than that from human beings no matter whether they work in the public or private sector.

Now put yourself in the shoes of someone intent on doing harm to others. Say a robber or rapist or someone in a jealous rage. If you live in DC, you can safely assume that, unless you get unlucky and pick a cop or body guard as a target, your chosen victim will be unarmed and no one in the vacinity will be armed iehter, so just carrying a .22 automatically puts you at an advantage over everyone you can expect to encounter.

Where I live, only a couple of hours drive from there, it's a whole different world. A criminal does not expect to find easy targets. The target or a bystander may have been expecting to go hunting later, but if he has to, he'll use his weapon on the bad guy. You don't walk into a store around here expecting to find the clerk unarmed so very rarely does anyone even attempt it.

This gets into behavioral science deeply! The mindset around here is just different. There was a cute story in the local papers a couple of years ago. Some joker pulled a gun on a teenaged clerk at a retail store. The grandmother in line behind this genius picked up her cane and beat him silly till the cops got there and rescued him. When asked what she had been thinking, she said she didn't think at all, she just saw how frightened the little girl was and it sent her into a rage.

People around here are entirely accustomed to upholding a certain standard of conduct. They don't expect the cops to do all the work. We've got hillbilly grannys for that.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 01:51:01 AM »
Well without coming off as all snotty and european in outlook :wink:
I would argue that heavy handed policing is definitely a factor which contributes to the culture of fear which allows a gun culture to flourish. it is like the chicken or the egg debate. If police were not encouraged to practice a zero tolerance dirty harry sort of mentality people would not have to keep guns in their homes and learn to shoot to kill.

As to the Nana beating the burgular off with a stick :rofl: I have no issue with that. It is all about degrees.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 06:33:54 PM »
I think people should be concerned with the normalization of violence via the media, Hollywood, television including/especially children's shows, overcoverage of the gruesome on the news and so on. It really does affect the way people behave.
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