Pledge to ban theWho

[Anonymous]

I wasnt saying that banning theWHo is like rape... no not at all.

I was saying that this forum is for survivors of mind rape basically, and sharing those experiences allows those "mind rapists" to come back and rape the victims again by trolling them or bringing their program friends to come group post horrible comments and saying they don't believe them and all that. My rape anaology was somewhat like if there was a rape survivor group (I know this site isnt just for survivors, just saying) would the rape survivor group allow rapists to enter the meeting too in order to listen? Isnt the public hearing about rapes enough to outrage them enough to not engage in that behavior? Because the theory of somne is that program people should be exposed, and in order to that you have to give them a place to say their feelings and post information. So this site is setup more like a designed battle, I think. It's definitely not a survivors group. If you stick your hoead out, it might get cut off because a lot of people aren't expecting the very detailed, long term, subtle trolls that are going to come when they post there experience. People pretending to care and using the information against you, shit like that. It causes an atmosphere of paranoia and anger and I think THeWHo sees that, and promotes it. Some people think that having enemies bands survivors together but hte enemy is in our own heads, not somebody else parents...enbd rant.

[Antigen]

I was saying that this forum is for survivors of mind rape basically, and sharing those experiences allows those "mind rapists" to come back and rape the victims again by trolling them or bringing their program friends to come group post horrible comments and saying they don't believe them and all that. My rape anaology was somewhat like if there was a rape survivor group (I know this site isnt just for survivors, just saying) would the rape survivor group allow rapists to enter the meeting too in order to listen? Isnt the public hearing about rapes enough to outrage them enough to not engage in that behavior? Because the theory of somne is that program people should be exposed, and in order to that you have to give them a place to say their feelings and post information. So this site is setup more like a designed battle, I think. It's definitely not a survivors group. If you stick your hoead out, it might get cut off because a lot of people aren't expecting the very detailed, long term, subtle trolls that are going to come when they post there experience. People pretending to care and using the information against you, shit like that. It causes an atmosphere of paranoia and anger and I think THeWHo sees that, and promotes it. Some people think that having enemies bands survivors together but hte enemy is in our own heads, not somebody else parents...enbd rant.

I think you've got it! And you've stated it better than I think anyone has so far. This project definitely was conceived as an open battle ground, not a closed, safe therapy session.

I hope Programer #A5 has hooked up w/ friends privately. I thank him or her for posting that story. I don't know if it was their intent to bait the Who to show both cheeks as he has, but that's what happened here. Blessings and gratitude to PA5 for that! And I certainly hope he or she has hooked up w/ sympathetic friends privately. But it's none of my affair unless he or she contacts me. I won't lift a finger to bust anyone's id.

Just take all the common threads of Program, turn them upside down and read them backward.That's the demonstration here.

The trouble with characters like Who is that they're not just individual people who act out of line with community norms. He's a manufactured product of the cult. Even if I successfully ban him (assuming he doesn't just get a proxy server and keep posting as someone else) he'll just be replaced by another and another of the pod people. They are an essential part of the story.

[Anonymous]

Does anybody really consider the people they befriended in the program to be "friends" at this point in their life? I sure as heck don't. I don't want to talk to them, be around them, or any of it. The most I can take of them is this forum, and even then it gets tiring. Wow, I sound like an asshole, but it's just the way I feel. I also do not like people to walk behind me, or eat near me, or touch me, or really talk to me. I prefer to be left alone  mostly. I think that's why the internet forums are so great for discussing personal and embarassing things like this. Has anyone tried talking about this stuff to their real life everyday friends? I have, and they tell me to shut the fuck up. They don't want to hear aout brainwashing kids, physical and sexual abuse, weird shit teens do when stressed beyond belief, the politics of jungle rules, what happens when kids are put in charge of other kids, and all the other fun stuff that comes along with programs. I think that is why its so important to have forums, and why Fornits specifically, is so useful. Program spefici forums, end up having the same social dynamic as the original program itself. The same strong personalities who took hold of hte program, take hold of the forum. This is the true value of fornits, in my own opinion, that is brings together survivors from many differnent programs. I enjoy reading the old timer survivors posts as much as the newer ones, and each one helps me in a strange way. But to sit in real life, and discuss this with people just doesn't work. Nobody wants to know about it. They don't want to be dragged down, because that's what it does. You delve in to this stuff, and don't tell me that it brings a positive effect intor your life, I know better. Talking to people who were at the same program, or same group as you is even more difficult, I think, because you canot be completely honest and say I hated all you motherfuckers and couldn't wait to get the fuck out. I hated the smell, I hated the stupid group meetings, I hated EVERYTHING including YOU. YOu just can't say that kind of shit. But I know that is the way a lot of people felt, including me. We fucking hated each other and only tolerated each other enough to pass the time, or whatever. A lot of people talk about having friends for life like war buddies, I just didn't get that experience.. wish I did. I want as far away from the program as possible. Meaning, I dont want friends who went to a program. I don't want to be drinking a beer, playing pool, and the topic of discussion to constantly be child abuse, brainwashing, and the fact we will probably never get over it. We just remind each other of the inevitable, that we are damaged goods and there really is nothing that can be done to fix that. I think we are all very divided in this way. That we never quite trust each other. Or wonder in the back of our heads, were you that upper level asshole I knew? There is no unity, no truth, and no conclusions. It's like getting on a roller coaster that has no perceivable end, you are just waiting for that final drop.. click.. click.. click... click.. click... I am getting nervous, how about you?

[Anonymous]

The trouble with characters like Who is that they're not just individual people who act out of line with community norms. He's a manufactured product of the cult. Even if I successfully ban him (assuming he doesn't just get a proxy server and keep posting as someone else) he'll just be replaced by another and another of the pod people. They are an essential part of the story.

Yeah thats a really good point. And I feel a bit like an idiot for making this thread an doffering 200 to ban him because it shows that I am a control freak like a programmie as well, I learn well. I feel the need , the desperate need, to maintain the knowledge that the horrble, and seeemingly unbelievable abuse that occurs to kids, is very very very real. To see someone laugh at it is like a fucking dagger to the heart. It brings up waves of rage and hate that couldn't be doused with all the water int he world, it goes that deep. To be honest, I would pay you all the money I have to ban him, I am that offended. I was going to post and say this was sort of a joke post to get a discussion started, which is partially true, I knew you wouldnt ban him and offered the money to show just how serious I am and let others know. But that odesn't take away from my own personal sense of hurt, and anger caused by him and others like him. And like you said, he coudl proxy up, and we all know another one will be coming along when he gets tired. One that will probably be even worse than him. Which is sad, because it's like watching a sand castle you spent all summer creating being slowly dragged back into the sea by the unrelenting ocean that melts away any existence of creation on that beach.. and I know thats why you say, well he stupid, go buy some cement and build a permanent one (build a website of your own), but the only thing that compells me to post is the constant challenging of truth. So it really is a catch 22. I probably wouldnt post if I didnt feel constantly offended, so what the fuck do I know. YOu seem to know a lot more than me anbout the working of this stuff, I am just a stoned rambler giving way too much thought to this shit. I was the person who posted in that thread way back when when you were asking for donations to fornits that you need to get a PO box so we can send cash. I dont have a bank account and cant use paypal or have a credit card, and I wanted to help this forum.. just saying I am probably not the only one out there who avoids banks and CCs. I dont want to see htis place dissappear any time soon. The archives should exist as long as abusive programs do, I think. Its prbably one of the most catalogued collecvtion of personal tales of abuse and whatnot in the entire world, for this industry.

[Antigen]

Some people hooked up w/ real friends. Some of them even married and had a bunch of kids together. I didn't and I don't know if I envy them others. Some days, but not others, ya know?

I find some comfort in talking w/ friends who do understand how fucked up the whole thing is. And I thoroughly enjoy being able to give a little moral support to kids just coming out of the thing. You're right, other people don't want to discuss it, they don't see how it relates to their lives. But it does. If it had been just one little band of lunatics, they would have self destructed. But these people have attained a great deal of influence in society.

Honestly, I think that has more to do with why we all keep flashing back on this shit years and years later. Not that each and every one of us was so profoundly, personally traumatized that we're all fucked up. More like we all got a crash course in some of the darker, uglier, really sort of terrifying side of human nature and we get reminders of it all the damned time. It's like being delusional in that we see significance in things that others around us just don't pick up on. For example, most people just think DARE is silly. Very few of my friends were really uncomfortable about it like I was. I probably heard a hundred times that I should just quit obsessing and relax before I found out that DARE was actually a DFAF undertaking, not just acoincidental reminder.

So yeah, I think there's value in hooking up w/ people who understand what you're talking about, but I wish it didn't tend to be such an exclusive thing. You're right, I've noticed the same thing. Wherever two or three program vets may gather for any particular reason, there's sure to be a come down rap and a termination somewhere along the line.

I don't know what to do about it, either. Any ideas?

[Anonymous]

I think we are all painfully aware that there is a net right below our feet ready to entrap us if we should take just one wrong step. Once you know that, experience it and feel it, it's hard to go back to not seeing all the fucking cracks in the sidewalk from then on, it really is impossible. You see just how close everyone else is to that cliff, as if they don't even see the edge.. and here we are running in the opposite direction, screaming back to them, get back you ignorant fuck!! Which can make you seem crazy. I know I seem this way to my friends, but I tell them, this is not because I have a chemical imbalance. I spent my entire teenage years running from and being put into facilities and shit like that, and well into my adult years. So when you know that there are people who take an active interest in knowing your thoughts, and pleasures and acting upon their idea of what's best for you, even if it means locking you up or forcing you onto brain altering chemicals, they will do whatever it takes and think themselves heroes. I still live in fear, and I think it's because I spent my younger years hiding and running from my parent. All the way up until I was 18 and finally clawed my way out of the constant maze of catch and release, escape and survival. I made a real friend, who I met a treatment center, but that was't a program. We are best friends now. We don't talk about our treatment experiences (we both have similar younger years) because what point is there really? I start to talk about it and my hands sweat,  pupils dilate, appetite goes away, muscles tense up, my jaw clenches and all the other signs that I am getting ready for a battle, and adrenaline is being released. I can't just sit around and talk about it like we are talking about politics or something. To me its unresolved. It never will be, because in order to do so I would have to enter battle and either win or die trying, and I am dead serious about that. Unless something that extreme were to occur, it's hard for me to imagine that this amount of hatred can ever, ever abate itself. Which brings up the point, who to fight? It wasn't one particular program, one particular family members, or one particular experience. It's the whole damn enchilada, and I am not quite sure whether I am allergic to just the peppers inside or the whole damn thing. It can get upsetting sometimes. The pent up stress and anger has taken its toll physically as well, it hurts, literally. So I don't know, I come here expecting to find answers and solutions so it's disheartening to read through some of this stuff. But it feels good, just to know, that others are out there.. but depressing at the same time. When you read about program survivors from programs 20 years ago, waking up, still having nightmares. It can get kind of scary.
I was thinking maybe a new forum might be in order for the abuse that takes place in regulated medical facilities and group homes, like psychiatric hospitals, and half way houses. I have a lot of stories from these types of places but I am never sure where to place than and just focus on my time in private programs, but its hard to tell a complete story. Like you say, DARE and public school, it starts early, and to suggest this is the result of only private programs is only telling half the story.
I like talking to the older survivors the most because they are further from the program and more chill.
ANd when I sawy the 'program' I am talking not hjust about private programs and such, but program families and all that kind of shit. Growing up in a fanatical AA family I feel like I was in a program from my earliest memories..and then prgoram after program after that. I was just fulfilling my destiny. 90 meetings in 90 days, whos up for it. lol

[Anonymous]

Ive been rereading my last post. Who do you fight, I ask in my last post.. and I have no realized the answer is, myself. The only thing left to fight is an internal battle, trying to remove the implanted psychological bullshit and self doubt that inevitably comes from being held hostage from love, family, society and respect so long as you withhold yourself. I think its hard to give up withholding self from that point on since its the only things that kept you, you.

[Anonymous]

So yeah, I think there's value in hooking up w/ people who understand what you're talking about, but I wish it didn't tend to be such an exclusive thing. You're right, I've noticed the same thing. Wherever two or three program vets may gather for any particular reason, there's sure to be a come down rap and a termination somewhere along the line.

I don't know what to do about it, either. Any ideas?

Maybe you should elaborate on this stuff sometime like with what all went down in some of these situations you've experienced....just a thought.  

What to do? Keep talking out in group, I guess. What else can you do?

[Antigen]

I will. Hanging with my daughter tonight, so prolly later once she turns in.

[Anonymous]

Cool..  ::seg::

[Antigen]

Ive been rereading my last post. Who do you fight, I ask in my last post.. and I have no realized the answer is, myself. The only thing left to fight is an internal battle, trying to remove the implanted psychological bullshit and self doubt that inevitably comes from being held hostage from love, family, society and respect so long as you withhold yourself. I think its hard to give up withholding self from that point on since its the only things that kept you, you.

I've been rereading it too. There's just so much in there. You think you're the enemy or the enemy is within you? Phfft! I think you've got some shit on the ball there, gal!

Btw, was talking to a friend last night who posts around here quite often. He said you 'tick tock' post was the best he'd ever seen on here. I agree.

Who or what to fight and how has been the most pressing question on my mind for some time now. Your background is so much like mine my heart bleeds for you.

[Antigen]

I think we are all painfully aware that there is a net right below our feet ready to entrap us if we should take just one wrong step. Once you know that, experience it and feel it, it's hard to go back to not seeing all the fucking cracks in the sidewalk from then on, it really is impossible. You see just how close everyone else is to that cliff, as if they don't even see the edge.. and here we are running in the opposite direction, screaming back to them, get back you ignorant fuck!! Which can make you seem crazy.

Oh, crazy you are not! Your choice of words reminds me of Catcher in the Rye, though. lol

I can't just sit around and talk about it like we are talking about politics or something. To me its unresolved. It never will be, because in order to do so I would have to enter battle and either win or die trying, and I am dead serious about that.

I think you've identified a big part of the problem right here. It's the way in which people 'talk politics' these days, like it's just a diversion to take up time between football games or something. As if our interests and our ideas don't matter--as if the idea of government by, for and of free sovereign people is just a quaint notion, not a way of life that we now celebrate w/ pyrotechnics every summer under the watchful eye of armed officers after we've passed through all the 'safety' checkpoints and such.

It's the whole damn enchilada, and I am not quite sure whether I am allergic to just the peppers inside or the whole damn thing.

I hear ya! It's incredibly hard to invest yourself in a society that condones, sometimes stands and cheers what they've done to us.

So I don't know, I come here expecting to find answers and solutions so it's disheartening to read through some of this stuff. But it feels good, just to know, that others are out there.. but depressing at the same time. When you read about program survivors from programs 20 years ago, waking up, still having nightmares. It can get kind of scary.

I wish I had a definitive answer for you. Hell, I wish I had one for myself! My friend said art is the answer. I've thought that often, but art takes a generation to seep in, or so says my friend. I want it NOW, damn it! lol

I was thinking maybe a new forum might be in order for the abuse that takes place in regulated medical facilities and group homes, like psychiatric hospitals, and half way houses. I have a lot of stories from these types of places but I am never sure where to place than and just focus on my time in private programs, but its hard to tell a complete story.

Now that I can answer!

Public Sector Gulags
Just like any good welfare mama, The Toughlove Hategroup has it's friends in government and gets is handouts. Here's a place for discussion of public sector gulags like the Florida State run Boot Camp where Martin Lee Anderson was killed. Florida also runs wilderness programs, like Eckerd Camp and the Sheriff's Boys and Girls Ranches. And it seems their already bad track record has taken a considerable dive since Brother JEB! took up residence in a public housing unit in Tallahassee.
Moderator Nobody

Like you say, DARE and public school, it starts early, and to suggest this is the result of only private programs is only telling half the story.
I like talking to the older survivors the most because they are further from the program and more chill.
ANd when I sawy the 'program' I am talking not hjust about private programs and such, but program families and all that kind of shit. Growing up in a fanatical AA family I feel like I was in a program from my earliest memories..and then prgoram after program after that. I was just fulfilling my destiny. 90 meetings in 90 days, whos up for it. lol

No shit, me too! Almost all my nightmares used to be about waking up back in the program, only my kids were lower phase inmates and it was all about trying to plan an escape in such a way that I could get all of us out.

When I first started getting involved in all this, I thought it would only take however long to make connections among ourselves, figure out what the message is and how to deliver it and we'd have a pretty serious presence in the media and society. I know a lot of people back in my day had their reservations about the whole thing and I thought all we had to do was elucidate and validate those and the whole thing would come down like a house of cards.

These days, I'm just looking to hook up w/ like minded people and  drop out enmass! LOL