I need advise

[Anonymous]

A small, but noteworthy detail: A moderator would have had to enter the "quintessential yuppie sellout" text under Who's name. Perhaps he came up with it himself and requested it be done..?

[Antigen]

I think he's on the payroll. Most people, even pro-program people like your mom just wont dedicate their lives to this bombardment of fornits stratagem oterwise. Its too weird.....Unless, im wrong and he is just nuts. John Wayne Gacy level nuts

Of course, that's entirely possible. Just saying that good old fashioned down home stupid and crazy covers the bill well enough. After I came of age, the last of 6, kids and the 5th of those to go through the program, Mom went to wok on Dad. Two months later, he turned up back in Pompano, having left a coffee cup embedded in the kitchen wall. She then opened her home as a prison location for Straight. Once that gig finally ended, she went right to work recruiting for some Bethel type home for pregnant teens--she thought she was helping pregnant girls take an honorable, kinder alternative to abortion.

I don't know if she got paid for referrals or not. I do know here well enough to say that she'd do it for free just to have somebody to pretend to rescue.

[Antigen]

There is no sense to all of this, I don’t understand….whats the point of someone doing this?

The point? There is no point and that's all the point they need. That's part of the mindfuck, Who. That's why they use pointless work, like digging and then filling in holes or hauling rocks up a steep hill. Pointless, injury inducing work is more effective at demoralizing a person than productive work. Same w/ external punishment. If you get into a brawl and somebody punches you in the nose, it only hurts your nose and maybe your ego a little, depending on whether you gave as good as you got. Put pointless violence, especially the kind that induces panic and real fear of death.... there's a word for it.... what the... on the tip of my tongue and  and it's been resonating through the halls of power in DC lately.

And you know good and god damned well people are capable of it. All that is needed are the right conditions, like complete, unquestioned authoritarian power and plausible (to enough of the right people) deniability. That's just about the whole recipe right there.

[psy]

During the PURE vs. WWASPS trial some of the jurors cried as they watched video clips of the “Box,” where American
children were reportedly hog-tied, hand-cuffed, duct-taped, starved, and slugged by staff.

When asked about whether using "3 inch tape" or "duct tape" constituted abuse in his opinion, he responded with this - "I, I, uh, I dont know I don't think I'm the right person to answer that question, I really honestly don't dont know that that would be... abuse. I really... (smiling) I know that you'd like to get an answer but I really don't know and I don't know how I feel about it, I uld probably be appropriate. Not at one of our schools but in the public system, and once in a while with my own children I thought, man, that wouldn't be a bad idea." - Ken Kay (President of WWASP)

Photos were shown of children who were locked inside The ISO Box (Isolation Box), a wooden structure no larger than a small closet at WWASP's Paradise Cove program in Western Samoa. Children told of their experiences when they were hog-tied, struck by staff members, and duct-taped during their stay. When an investigation into allegations of child abuse and neglect was initiated, WWASP closed this program.

I was often struck by WWASP's harassment of the parents who testified. For example, Fred Silvester, WWASP’s attorney, was asking Mr. Goodwin, a father whose son was in WWASP’s High Impact, about a comment made having to do with going to look around the "school". In what appeared to me to be a sharp, sarcastic tone, he asks, "And what did you see?" I guess maybe he thought Mr. Goodwin would say, happy kids soaking up knowledge! Mr. Goodwin responded, "Well, I looked in one door and saw a girl sitting with a three inch strip of duct tape across her mouth." Silvester’s back went stiff, as he drummed his fingers on the podium; Then he waves his hand at Mr. Goodwin and snaps, "You just made that up, didn't you?!"

"NO I did NOT just make that up!" was Mr. Goodwin's adamant reply.

It was powerful.

It was during Mr. Goodwin's testimony about High Impact that I learned some things I had not been aware of before. He explained how the staff used cattle prods to terrify the students and keep them in the stress positions. It was either maintain the position, or get a jolt from the cattle prod. They would strike the ground and create a discharged by the kids' heads, so they would know the prod was hot.

Enough controversy, including records supplied to officials that allegedly documented restraints used against children such as handcuffs, pepper spray and duct tape, led the Boonville City Council on Monday to unanimously reject Lichfield's offer.

TheWho: Why do you think this is a big fucking joke?

Guest, Because it isnt that believable to me, I am sorry.  I have heard many a story of parents who say TBS was a last resort and no one believed them and made jokes, I was in the same position as they were.  So it depends on you perspective.

Is it funny, though?

No, not duct taping someone across their mouth, thats awful.  But to believe someone would duct tape someone from the tip of their head down to their toes like a mummy is really hard for me to believe....what would be the point?  What do you do with someone like that?  I have never duct taped anyone before but I know if I duct taped someone’s hands and feet they are not going anywhere, there is no point to cover him in tape like a mummy, is there?  Do you know how many people it would take to remove all that tape?  Have you ever worked with the stuff?  They would have to hire 2 extra people just to remove this from the people each day
To duct tape someone’s mouth, sure, to keep them from talking...abusive? yes.  Funny ?....no.

The whole person is pretty funny to me, sorry for insensitivity.

I wont even touch the typhoon abuse.  Has anyone ever been near the sea wall during a hurricane?  Would you want to carry someone down there and try to toss them into the ocean?  Its nuts! 60 mile per hour winds coming straight back at you, if you manage to get any object in the water  thru all this it would be gone for good, no one would be coming back to tell the story.  There is no sense to all of this, I don’t understand….whats the point of someone doing this?

What is the point of bla bla bla.. How could they possably do yadda yadda.  why didn't you ask him.  The point was to pressure somebody, by whatever means, until they broke, from which point they can be rebuilt out of cards.

Look.. When you sent your daughter to get "Behavior Modification".. what the fuck did you think it was.  You can't change a person unless they want to change, and yet programs profess to be able to do that... How?  Ask yourself that question.  Break them down and build them up again...  CEDU-esque programs have their ways, as did WWASP and Straight.  It doesn't matter how you break a person down...   just know that breaking the will of a person takes a lot of pressure, and it's a lot harder than in the army when people are there voluntarily, and want to "get tough"...

You just don't get the con-game do you... Until your daughter actually believed she needed to be there, she wasn't going to leave.  There are people who went to Paradise cove, or Tranquility Bay, who say they loved it...  Because they don't leave until they at the very least, say it to the parents (preferably on video for the marketing dept.).  90% of the time, This effect wears off after a while, at which point the kid goes "fuck you" and doesnt talk to the parents again.

What... you don't think ASR was like that?

[exhausted]

Why is every thread turned into a The Who hatred thread?

I didn't intend this thread to become a slanging match - what The Who said in reply to me made sense

What he said in reply to the ex program kid does not ... I can well believe the use of duct tape for the very reasons he pointed out, that it is so strong it would completely immobilise the child physically, hence immobilising them mentally at the same time, it seems the perfect way of getting a kid to comply if you ask me, it's a disgusting practise & something that should be left to 2 consenting adults in the bedroom!!

I do take his point about the tornado thing though...I won't call this person a liar, because I wasn't there, but it does seem a bit strange to carry out something that is likely to get the program staff killed, however, no matter what - if this person has been through any type of abuse, then it is wrong, wrong, wrong - just my 2 cents worth

[Anonymous]

We are lucky to have such smug, intelligent parents on this website to explain to the survivors when they are being truthful or not. I don't think I would be able to tell if it weren't for these parents. Let's give them a big hand for making this place such a conducive place to want to post your story.  Some might wonder why these parents post here at all. I say hogwash, they have every right to question survivors testimony on a survivors site, if they don't, who will?

[TheWho]

Psy Wrote:

Look.. When you sent your daughter to get "Behavior Modification".. what the fuck did you think it was. You can't change a person unless they want to change, and yet programs profess to be able to do that... How? Ask yourself that question.

Lets say you are trying to get your son to sit in their chair when he is eating and he doesn’t seem to want to.  Those times he does sit in his chair you give him praise, eventually he is sitting in his chair during the whole meal.  Maybe he would rather stand but his behavior has been modified and is just as happy sitting.
The same with a child playing soccer, when he scores a goal the people roar and applaud so he tries that much harder to do it again.  If he passes it off to the other team he hears “Boos”, so he tries harder to make goals and not give the ball to the opponent.
Is it abusive? No….Behavior Mod?  Yes.   If you duct taped your son to the chair, it would work also, but why would you want to do this? and even if you did, one or 2 pieces would hold him down why use a whole roll?  It will take you hours to remove it all.

You place a child into a safe environment and provide them with therapy most children will eventually work on their issues and grow.  Sure there are exceptions where this doesn’t work and the child needs to move on or maybe the child shouldn’t have been there in the first place and these are the children that many here on fornits speak to.
But TBS’s are not just providing behavior modification, they provide a safe environment where the child can slow down and focus on themselves without the influences of external stimuli which may not be healthy.  Get them back to the books if that is the issue, making poor decisions if that is their issue, etc.

I agree, that if you dig your heels in for 16 months you are not going to benefit from the stay there.

[psy]

Psy Wrote:

Look.. When you sent your daughter to get "Behavior Modification".. what the fuck did you think it was. You can't change a person unless they want to change, and yet programs profess to be able to do that... How? Ask yourself that question.

Lets say you are trying to get your son to sit in their chair when he is eating and he doesn’t seem to want to.  Those times he does sit in his chair you give him praise, eventually he is sitting in his chair during the whole meal.  Maybe he would rather stand but his behavior has been modified and is just as happy sitting.
The same with a child playing soccer, when he scores a goal the people roar and applaud so he tries that much harder to do it again.  If he passes it off to the other team he hears “Boos”, so he tries harder to make goals and not give the ball to the opponent.
Is it abusive? No….Behavior Mod?  Yes.   If you duct taped your son to the chair, it would work also, but why would you want to do this? and even if you did, one or 2 pieces would hold him down why use a whole roll?  It will take you hours to remove it all.

Provided you cared about it hurting.  If you didn't.. Well just take him outside, grab one end of the tape, and pull.

Also consider that that particular facility in Western Samoa rarely let the kids bathe.  Because of the excess buildup of skin oil, sweat, and dirt, the adhesive on the tape would stick less.  Western Samoa is a hot country remember.

You place a child into a safe environment and provide them with therapy most children will eventually work on their issues and grow.  Sure there are exceptions where this doesn’t work and the child needs to move on or maybe the child shouldn’t have been there in the first place and these are the children that many here on fornits speak to.
But TBS’s are not just providing behavior modification, they provide a safe environment where the child can slow down and focus on themselves without the influences of external stimuli which may not be healthy.  Get them back to the books if that is the issue, making poor decisions if that is their issue, etc.

I agree, that if you dig your heels in for 16 months you are not going to benefit from the stay there.

 bla bla bla.. You think these places practice positive re-enforcement!??!?!  They (more often that not) explicitly state that they will "break the kids down" so they can build them up.  Also consider that you can practice a hybrid:  You create a miserable enviornment, and give them pieces of normalcy for compliance.  EG:  Interrogations, where the rule of reciprocity is used (I make you miserable, remove that misery, and you feel the desire to give me something back)

You really have a twisted idea of what these places do.

[Oz girl]

I think it says something that the Who is one of those parents who boos at little childrens sporting matches.

[psy]

I think it says something that the Who is one of those parents who boos at little childrens sporting matches.

now  he didn't actually say that.  read carefully.  He is an asshole however, there's no question about that.

[Anonymous]

What he said in reply to the ex program kid does not ... I can well believe the use of duct tape for the very reasons he pointed out, that it is so strong it would completely immobilise the child physically, hence immobilising them mentally at the same time, it seems the perfect way of getting a kid to comply if you ask me, it's a disgusting practise & something that should be left to 2 consenting adults in the bedroom!!

Oh, really?  ::whip::

Do you prefer 'top' or 'bottom'? Your place or mine??  :question:

[Antigen]

But TBS’s are not just providing behavior modification, they provide a safe environment

You just made that up, didn't you?

[TheWho]

psy wrote:

bla bla bla.. You think these places practice positive re-enforcement!??!?!

I realize every place is different and I cannot speak to where you attended but on one of my visits to ASR we headed back to my daughters room, which was quite nice, she shared it with three other girls, they had their own bath.  There was a table in the middle and she pulled out some dominos and we played, shot the breeze while waiting to join the other kids after dinner for a movie (I think they showed a movie every Sunday night).  Anyway I noticed the bed next to my daughters was covered with sticky notes and I kind of walked over and they all said little words of encouragement, like “Good luck!!”, Know you can do it” etc.  I asked my daughter what that was all about and she said her room mate had a history exam the next day (which was oral) and she had always be afraid of being called upon in school so this was a milestone for her to stand up in front of class.  The notes were from students as well as staff members.  They really cared for each other there and the staff/ counselors were always supportive as each child met and tackled each challenge.

[TheWho]

Psy wrote:

now he didn't actually say that. read carefully. He is an asshole however, there's no question about that.

Thanks for sticking up for me, psy, but …… its very conflicting, for some reason I feel insulted.

[Anonymous]

What he said in reply to the ex program kid does not ... I can well believe the use of duct tape for the very reasons he pointed out, that it is so strong it would completely immobilise the child physically, hence immobilising them mentally at the same time, it seems the perfect way of getting a kid to comply if you ask me, it's a disgusting practise & something that should be left to 2 consenting adults in the bedroom!!

Oh, really?  ::whip::

Do you prefer 'top' or 'bottom'? Your place or mine??  :question:

 :rofl:    :silly:  ::kiss::  ::bwahaha::  ::ftard::  ::shhhh::  ::bwahaha2::  :rofl: