Siblings who commit suicide after program

[Antigen]

I ran into a program sibling not too long ago. Crazy muthuh, he was. I took a job working for him in rental property development. The dude was just... scattered. He was buying up distressed properties on personal credit, complete at odds with himself. Said he was going to just bring the places up to Section 8 standards and take the government cheese. But he kept doing entirely fucked up things, like having us paint a room 4 times with the most expensive, kick ass paint till it was really well covered then rip the whole thing down and replace it with tile. Or take down a wall of new tile and replace it with something else. He'd spend several thousand on a pressure washer or some other really hardcore industrial equipment that, given the nature of the enterprise, there's just no way you'd ever get that kind of use out of it.

In the course of working w/ the dude, painting mostly, we got to talking about all kinds of things--loved to bs about politics and philosophy, this dude. The whole way he thought and even some of his vocabulary prompted me to ask him one day "Ok, which program were you in".  Said the place was called Tomorrow or Today or something in Philly. Wasn't him, though, was his little brother.

Funny how  I was able to recognize one of our own though, isn't it? The Program truly does involve the entire family. Maybe sibs and vets alike tend to lose our grip just because, having been so acculturated, we don't really fit in anywhere else. That's how I felt the whole time my older brothers and sisters were involved w/ the Seed.

[psy]

Well I might aggree that he might have committed suicide otherwise... however:

He was not suicidal prior to Benchmark

neither Was Jason, who was sent there for ADHD, slit his wrists two months into program.

Neither was Emily, who was caught by the night watchman on top of the apartment buildings ready to jump

Suicide attempts were so common at Benchmark they got the nickname "5150"... (ie. he/she 5150ed)...  The standard punishment was to make the kid pay for the ambulance bill (usually around $900) by working it off at $2.50 an hour on weekends.  This resulted in essentially permanent "work ethic" duty which didn't really help the situation much.  Suicide attempts were seen as manipulations.   Telling the staff "i'm feeling like slitting my wrists" resulted in a "go talk about it in group" or "what?  are you looking for attention?!?! Go away!"

Shit, even I thought about it, and I was never suicidal prior to Benchmark.  It was not an environment conducive to viewing one's self in a positive light (that would interfere with the program's goal of "breaking you down").  They turned us into animals, forced us to beat each-other down, rewarded us for being cruel.  Some could take it, other's couldn't.  Those that couldn't either took to the streets (prostitution, dealing, begging, whatever to survive), or they attempted suicide.  A psych ward was a lot more peaceful than program according to those i have talked to who have tried.  If you look at the interviews I've done, every single one mentions witnessing multiple suicide attempts.  I know of two confirmed suicides, one in program one afterwards, as well as one person who claims there was a second in-program suicide.  Why it didn't make the papers?  Probably because the kids are (mostly) over 18.

A whole lot of em came from other programs (SUWS, CEDU, etc...).. and when you're in program you're entire life essentially, and it continues even after you turn 18, where is the hope for a normal existence...  And when hope dies.. all sorts of things happen.  You can give in, like I did, and let them erase your identity, you can leave, take to the streets, and come back broken, or you can end it all and hope for a better place...  A lot of people I know took option #3.  Some suceeded.  Had they been given another option... one without program, one that involved self-worth, I believe things would have been different.

[Anonymous]

it always amazes me that people dont get that
if you can "help" than you can "hurt"
if you can "save" you can "destroy"
If you can intervene and turn everything around in a good way
than you can intervene and turn everything around in a bad way

. I mean if thats not the case then why dont we all volenteer to live lives in prison, or have our limbs amputated, or to live the life of a diseased homeless prostitute? Afterall, its about "what we are inside" right? What we are inside is dictated by what we are on the outside. If our outside is bad enough long enough it will start affecting in a permanent and destructive way what we are on the inside

People arent rocks. They are living organisms that are formed by their surroundings. In brazilian rainforests we'd be eating our villages nightly communal supper now, if you were bought in the 1700s and brought to America youd have worked on a plantation and dies in obscurity, if you lived in the 1600s you'd be married at 13 and have children at 14 and work in feilds , or else youd be off to the convents. Men had a bit more variety-but not much. But thrughout history peoples live are pretty much dicatated by the society they live in.

Driving people to suicide is just the same just a little further out on the spectrum but can be affected just as easily and predictably. If not why not just tie your kid to a chair for the next 5 years, I mean as long as ya feed him...but in truth of course, we know what you do to a person affects their life quality both while its happeneing and after

[exhausted]

Whoa a minute, back up here!!

I never said programs don't cause so much distress as to make kids want to commit suicide, we know that can be the case, its a fact.
But then so it is a fact that people who haven't gone to programs do the same, shitty childhoods can get you that way even when you haven't been in a program, unfortunately as an adult, you have to carry that child within

I was having an adult debate here guest, about wether we can 100% blame programs for what may have happened anyway, suicide happens for all sorts of reasons and sometimes for none at all, I've done heaps of research on it, I really know my stuff when it comes to it as I was personally affected.

Not once did I say programs don't have that effect, I know they can do, I was merely pointing out that it may not have been the program at all, it may just be the way it was going to happen.
A little nugget for you - the child of a parent who has comitted suicide, is 80% more likely on average to do the same

Glad we cleared that up

[hanzomon4]

It's reasonable to hold programs accountable for most survivor suicides. Programs claim to treat depressions, suicidal ideation, and a host of other stuff they only make worse. The "survivor" may have been suicidal pre-program but the program denied them any real help and piled a heap a shit on an already sinking ship. Also experts on thought reform sight suicide as a risk.

[Anonymous]

ok, if you please, this thread is meant to be a reberence and discussion thread ..not a "did it happen" thread...thanks

psy what happened to the twin

also, do you know what the parents of "karlye" and the sucides think afterwards
the program parents that I know are so abusive that they thought their kid was wrecked" to begin with. Ya know, the way the father of Nixmary Brown saw his daughter as so "wrecked" she needed "special" disipline- in a way that reflects their hatred of their own child, their projection of their inner darkness onto an innocent bystander...
do any of the parents put things together..my feeling is that,as they are terrible parents to begin with they never make the connections, adn are too lazy to do any investigations further once they do make the connections

[psy]

ok, if you please, this thread is meant to be a reberence and discussion thread ..not a "did it happen" thread...thanks

psy what happened to the twin

He killed himself right after program.  AFAIK he "graduated"... they used his name "Seth H." in on of thier newsletters to the parents as a "sucess story"  and that's after the fact.  No.. of course the don't mention he killed himself directly after program.

I can no longer find his obituary using Google but I archive pretty much everything so i should have a copy around somewhere.

also, do you know what the parents of "karlye" and the sucides think afterwards

What happened after the twin killed himself?  They had a special group (rap ultra-lite) for the parents, comforting them and showing them what a loving place it is...   When they posted his obituary they suggested sending wreaths and flowers to Benchmark...

Kid named George jumped off a bridge onto his head (allegedly after a harsh confrontation from staff) about 30 feet from program (not on property technically)  They held a group to help his family grieve (ie... not sue)

you can probably fill in the blanks.

the program parents that I know are so abusive that they thought their kid was wrecked" to begin with. Ya know, the way the father of Nixmary Brown saw his daughter as so "wrecked" she needed "special" disipline- in a way that reflects their hatred of their own child, their projection of their inner darkness onto an innocent bystander...
do any of the parents put things together..my feeling is that,as they are terrible parents to begin with they never make the connections, adn are too lazy to do any investigations further once they do make the connections

Lazy... maybe they don't believe thier kids becuase they would sometimes lie.  Program knows they can do whatever the hell they want to a boy who cried wolf.  In any case.. yes.  The parents do have responsibility for not investigating... especially after dismissing accusations of mistreatment as "manipulations".. The biggest program blanket excuse of all time...

but yeah.. there are some fucked up and totally evil parents who just don't give a fuck.

[Anonymous]

Well I might aggree that he might have committed suicide otherwise... however:

He was not suicidal prior to Benchmark

neither Was Jason, who was sent there for ADHD, slit his wrists two months into program.

Neither was Emily, who was caught by the night watchman on top of the apartment buildings ready to jump

Suicide attempts were so common at Benchmark they got the nickname "5150"... (ie. he/she 5150ed)...  The standard punishment was to make the kid pay for the ambulance bill (usually around $900) by working it off at $2.50 an hour on weekends.  This resulted in essentially permanent "work ethic" duty which didn't really help the situation much.  Suicide attempts were seen as manipulations.   Telling the staff "i'm feeling like slitting my wrists" resulted in a "go talk about it in group" or "what?  are you looking for attention?!?! Go away!"

Shit, even I thought about it, and I was never suicidal prior to Benchmark.  It was not an environment conducive to viewing one's self in a positive light (that would interfere with the program's goal of "breaking you down").  They turned us into animals, forced us to beat each-other down, rewarded us for being cruel.  Some could take it, other's couldn't.  Those that couldn't either took to the streets (prostitution, dealing, begging, whatever to survive), or they attempted suicide.  A psych ward was a lot more peaceful than program according to those i have talked to who have tried.  If you look at the interviews I've done, every single one mentions witnessing multiple suicide attempts.  I know of two confirmed suicides, one in program one afterwards, as well as one person who claims there was a second in-program suicide.  Why it didn't make the papers?  Probably because the kids are (mostly) over 18.

A whole lot of em came from other programs (SUWS, CEDU, etc...).. and when you're in program you're entire life essentially, and it continues even after you turn 18, where is the hope for a normal existence...  And when hope dies.. all sorts of things happen.  You can give in, like I did, and let them erase your identity, you can leave, take to the streets, and come back broken, or you can end it all and hope for a better place...  A lot of people I know took option #3.  Some suceeded.  Had they been given another option... one without program, one that involved self-worth, I believe things would have been different.

I respect your point, but if one person could tell when another is suicidal, there would be fewer suicides, don't you think? You really can't claim a person was not suicidal. Many times, there is no warning whatsoever--especially when the intention is really to die.

[psy]

Well I might aggree that he might have committed suicide otherwise... however:

He was not suicidal prior to Benchmark

neither Was Jason, who was sent there for ADHD, slit his wrists two months into program.

Neither was Emily, who was caught by the night watchman on top of the apartment buildings ready to jump

Suicide attempts were so common at Benchmark they got the nickname "5150"... (ie. he/she 5150ed)...  The standard punishment was to make the kid pay for the ambulance bill (usually around $900) by working it off at $2.50 an hour on weekends.  This resulted in essentially permanent "work ethic" duty which didn't really help the situation much.  Suicide attempts were seen as manipulations.   Telling the staff "i'm feeling like slitting my wrists" resulted in a "go talk about it in group" or "what?  are you looking for attention?!?! Go away!"

Shit, even I thought about it, and I was never suicidal prior to Benchmark.  It was not an environment conducive to viewing one's self in a positive light (that would interfere with the program's goal of "breaking you down").  They turned us into animals, forced us to beat each-other down, rewarded us for being cruel.  Some could take it, other's couldn't.  Those that couldn't either took to the streets (prostitution, dealing, begging, whatever to survive), or they attempted suicide.  A psych ward was a lot more peaceful than program according to those i have talked to who have tried.  If you look at the interviews I've done, every single one mentions witnessing multiple suicide attempts.  I know of two confirmed suicides, one in program one afterwards, as well as one person who claims there was a second in-program suicide.  Why it didn't make the papers?  Probably because the kids are (mostly) over 18.

A whole lot of em came from other programs (SUWS, CEDU, etc...).. and when you're in program you're entire life essentially, and it continues even after you turn 18, where is the hope for a normal existence...  And when hope dies.. all sorts of things happen.  You can give in, like I did, and let them erase your identity, you can leave, take to the streets, and come back broken, or you can end it all and hope for a better place...  A lot of people I know took option #3.  Some suceeded.  Had they been given another option... one without program, one that involved self-worth, I believe things would have been different.

I respect your point, but if one person could tell when another is suicidal, there would be fewer suicides, don't you think? You really can't claim a person was not suicidal. Many times, there is no warning whatsoever--especially when the intention is really to die.

I don't know where to start with that one... There was plenty of warning.  plenty.  Staff dismissed it as a manipulation to get attention etc... You just don't do that... (for obvious reasons) but since a good portion of benchmark's staff (and i mean counselors) don't even have high school diplomas... eeh.. lack of education isn't an excuse.  nevermind that.  They have blood on their hands, it's pure and simple.

I never realized how bad Benchmark was until I found fornits...  it seemed bad... i knew it was bad.. but i didn't quite know how to quantify it...    I used to think it was "lite" compared to other places and then i interview a girl who went to SUWS in Idaho.. and she said it was a picknic compared to Benchmark  Young Adult School.

And despite the ambulances I saw, those i knew, and know who rode in them...  looking into Redlands police and ambulance records shows no visits to the State St apartments...  Fucking incredible..  Jayne Selby Longnecker... Director of benchmark... I knew Jayne's family (son et. al) worked for the Redlands popo but I had no idea they would stoop so low...  Oh this just keeps getting bigger and better. And yeah I will allege that the ambulance records were tampered with. So fuck you Jayne Longnecker.  Like I said before, you can't erase the human evidence.  Please... please ple plse pleeeaaaase.. sue me ...  Let me bring George's parents in to ask em some questions.. or seth's brother, who I knew very well...  Oh... and that one person, the most credible, the last person you would expect to testify...  or... JASON... ahahahahahahah ... you know exactly what I am talking about... and Don't think Jorge hasn't been stupid enough to brag...  and the list goes on, and on, and on... and you know the bell is tolling for you...  I've been busy, bitch.

Oh... and when you get to jail. Your cellmate will rape you violently.  Believe that.  And that will be for Brian.

sorry folks for that display of program love...  I'm afraid i've slipped into pure rage mode after some recent revelations which will become public in time...

[AtomicAnt]

It certainly does not stretch anyone's imagination that being placed in a program might be the cause of suicidal thoughts or of suicide as a form of escape. The problem is proving it. It would be almost impossible to win such a case in a court of law.

Programs take great care to remove the means to prevent suicide. They would argue these precautions are necessary due to the nature of their prisoners. We might argue these precautions are necessry due to the nature of the program. Perhaps both arguments are correct.

But, if you could prove cause and effect, you could shut a place down quick.

[Anonymous]

It certainly does not stretch anyone's imagination that being placed in a program might be the cause of suicidal thoughts or of suicide as a form of escape. The problem is proving it. It would be almost impossible to win such a case in a court of law.

Programs take great care to remove the means to prevent suicide. They would argue these precautions are necessary due to the nature of their prisoners. We might argue these precautions are necessry due to the nature of the program. Perhaps both arguments are correct.

But, if you could prove cause and effect, you could shut a place down quick.

prooving it would actually be fairly easy if you had a somewhat involved parent and a somewhat honest prosecutor (thats the rub eh)
I can think of 3 instances off the top of my head where a caregiver was imprisoned for driving a youth to suicide, one where a mother kept a filthy house and was not respondant to her daughters emotional needs regarding being bullied, one where a mother forced her daughter to work as a stripper (and the dauther was 18 when she died) and one case where parents were negligent in terms of providing adequate cloting an emotional assistance...so there you have 3 cases where the abuse is no where near as horrible as the least abusisve program. Ultimately, No matter how shitty a parent you are, you cant top the inevitable inasnity that comes from an environment where prople are  paid to make a child ssuffer on a 24/7 basis.

All it will take to prosecute is the one involved family member and the one honest DA......tic toc tic toc

[White Cracker Man]

Well, the argument is totally irrevelant.

No child should be in any program regardless of their potential of commiting suicide.

Yes, I am back once again, hoping to stay this time,lol.

[Anonymous]

yes, im looking for people who have experience with their "better half" and people they are entwined with commiting suicide after program
i fell like I have completely lost my mind. Similar to how it feels in program, like my consciousness (sp) has been altered. I am always in pain so terrible that I cant concentrate. I am "stuck" inside myself. I dont have a normal "sense" of time. I always feel "degraded: like Im getting raped....Its hard to explain its a feeling of rage so powerful but twisted. I would go after program but am too weak now for health reasons.Its an unlivable existance and am planning on suicide- Im not saying that to "talked out of it" or to discuss it, its just that there is no future and all there is at present and past is agony. Amazing ...I was always ao strong one. I took anything.. abusive parents, isolation,the works.....Now I am one of those people I never understood. I am an emissiary from planet damaged speaking the language I never understood. And I am trapped here forever ...I think

[Anonymous]

ok, if you please, this thread is meant to be a reberence and discussion thread ..not a "did it happen" thread...thanks

psy what happened to the twin

He killed himself right after program.  AFAIK he "graduated"... they used his name "Seth H." in on of thier newsletters to the parents as a "sucess story"  and that's after the fact.  No.. of course the don't mention he killed himself directly after program.

I can no longer find his obituary using Google but I archive pretty much everything so i should have a copy around somewhere.

also, do you know what the parents of "karlye" and the sucides think afterwards

What happened after the twin killed himself?  They had a special group (rap ultra-lite) for the parents, comforting them and showing them what a loving place it is...   When they posted his obituary they suggested sending wreaths and flowers to Benchmark...

Kid named George jumped off a bridge onto his head (allegedly after a harsh confrontation from staff) about 30 feet from program (not on property technically)  They held a group to help his family grieve (ie... not sue)

you can probably fill in the blanks.

the program parents that I know are so abusive that they thought their kid was wrecked" to begin with. Ya know, the way the father of Nixmary Brown saw his daughter as so "wrecked" she needed "special" disipline- in a way that reflects their hatred of their own child, their projection of their inner darkness onto an innocent bystander...
do any of the parents put things together..my feeling is that,as they are terrible parents to begin with they never make the connections, adn are too lazy to do any investigations further once they do make the connections

Lazy... maybe they don't believe thier kids becuase they would sometimes lie.  Program knows they can do whatever the hell they want to a boy who cried wolf.  In any case.. yes.  The parents do have responsibility for not investigating... especially after dismissing accusations of mistreatment as "manipulations".. The biggest program blanket excuse of all time...

but yeah.. there are some fucked up and totally evil parents who just don't give a fuck.

These parents I know are that sort of parent. They are fucked up and totally evil. But at the same time they "loved" this kid that commited suicide.
They dont persue things for the same reason they didnt keep the kid at home..they are too lazy to do anything else. What I mean by "lazy" is that they are abnormally limited emotionally, mentally and spritiutally with what they can devote to their children both before and after they kill them.

To know that porgram hurt him, they would have had to see him  accurately before program- which they were incapable of. They were abusive, they were blind to the indescribable beauty of their own child.

To know that program hurt him, they would have to have had an honest open loving dialogue with him. They were incaplable of that.
They do not have the nuturing instinct. They dont extend acts of "care" . Whatever opprotunity for their shadow of "care" being enough to engage with their kid was destroyed by program. Their kid had lost any trust in the parents and now that he'd been damaged by program he needed a more sensitve ear than even normal children need .

To go after the program now would require emotional recorces they simply lack. These parents have all the cash in the world but very lttle heart. Programs both bank on that, and take that to the bank.

To go after program would entail personal soul searching with what they find being unpleasant ,and investment of time spent in fashion also unplesant, on a topic very unpleasent.

These parents are not willing and unable to do basic acts of nuturing. They do not have it in them to do extradinary acts of ordinary decency.

It is not their fault and completely their fault, like all nutty parents who murders their children.  But it's sadder because had these parents been protected from thelseves by laws that protect children they couldnt have carried their well-intended insanity to its bloody conclusion

[hanzomon4]

yes, im looking for people who have experience with their "better half" and people they are entwined with commiting suicide after program
i fell like I have completely lost my mind. Similar to how it feels in program, like my consciousness (sp) has been altered. I am always in pain so terrible that I cant concentrate. I am "stuck" inside myself. I dont have a normal "sense" of time. I always feel "degraded: like Im getting raped....Its hard to explain its a feeling of rage so powerful but twisted. I would go after program but am too weak now for health reasons.Its an unlivable existance and am planning on suicide- Im not saying that to "talked out of it" or to discuss it, its just that there is no future and all there is at present and past is agony. Amazing ...I was always ao strong one. I took anything.. abusive parents, isolation,the works.....Now I am one of those people I never understood. I am an emissiary from planet damaged speaking the language I never understood. And I am trapped here forever ...I think

Having been there myself what you say makes perfect sense. I had a 5 yr bout of severe clinical depression and it felt like I existed outside of the "real world". It was like being a ghost watching the living world swirl around me but not being able to do anything more. It wasn't like I was boo whooooing for 5 yrs. it was more like a slow burn and at worse grieving. The weirdest thing is that once it ended(so I thought) I couldn't remember how it felt or why I felt the way I did. Now it's more like a dream(nightmare) then a real memory.

but, yeah... I've been there...........

and thought, "What the FUCK!!"