Author Topic: Bowling for Columbine  (Read 10251 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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Bowling for Columbine
« on: September 22, 2006, 11:34:10 PM »
I was watching this tonight, until we lost the station. It got me thinking - how unusual is our murder rate, and why?

How many people do you all know, who were murdered - or who murdered someone else? I don't mean that you know about - but that you actually know - spent time with on at least a few occasions.

I can count The Lovesay Brothers. They beat their land lord to death with an ash try stand.

Lester Rose and Randy Arrowood - they shot two men to death and would have shot the girl - but she got away.

Whimper killed his wife and left her in the trunk of her car at the airport.

Pudd shot and killed GW.

And these are just the cases I know of - among the people I know. I've left out the suicides and accidental shootings.

 Is this normal?

And is it true that our murder rate is astronomical compared to other "western" nations? In the case of Canada - the gun ownership rate seem equal to or greater than our own - and they have the same media influences (Music; Movies; violent games) According to Moore, so why do they have a much lower shooting rate? Any thoughts?

Moore seemed to be trying to argue it is all a big race war - but that doesn't fit the facts. *Generally* whites kill whites and blacks kill blacks. Of corse there are exceptions - but this is a general rule of thumb. Whites aren't killing blacks by the score because we fear or hate them - nor are they killing us in large numbers for such reasons. So, racial strife can not account for it. So, what does?

And as for Columbine - and the many other cases of school shootings - what can explain it? BTW - I've n oticed they have occured in rural or small town school systems. It is not a product of urban rot and ruin, as some assume. Any thoughts?
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Offline Oz girl

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2006, 12:32:00 AM »
I dont know whether the violent crime figures Moore quoted were correct or not. I have always questioned what urban civilians in the US or anywhere would want with violent weapons though. If a gun is not required to kill pests becuase you live on a farm and you do not work in law enforcment or the military, the right to bear arms seems like a fairly random thing to have in any constitution. it kinda sets a rather negative tone for the way a country expects her citizens to conduct themsleves. There is something a bit paranoid to it.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2006, 09:27:07 AM »
Our right to bear arms attitude comes from our history. The British tried to take the Colonists guns away at some point. They ran around collecting them. This doesn't work in a colony that uses guns for hunting, pest control, and protection against the natives and roaming 'bad guys.'

The Constitutional reasoning for the gun thing was that each State had a militia and the federal army was rather weak. The States and the Nation wanted the ability to call every able bodied man quickly in times of strife.

The culture of the USA does contain an element of paranoia, especially towards authority and government. One of the modern traits of anti-gun control people seems to be they want protection not just from the criminal element, but from the government should the government go too far in its oppression. Our Country is home to several so-called militia groups that feel this has already come to pass. These groups are armed to the teeth and talk of the conspiracy of One-World-Government and mysterious black helicopters watching over things.

Personally, I think the violence thing is cultural. In the USA the underdog and even the outlaw are romantic figures that are admired. Billy the Kid is considered a hero even though in real life he was cowardly, ruthless killer. Watch those violent movies and you find a wronged man after revenge against a stronger foe is the  most common theme. This is Americas anti-hero than developed in the movies during the 1970s. The quintessential example was the movie Taxi Driver.

These movies reflect and nurture the idea that violence is still a valid option for solving disputes. Look at Bush and Iraq, for example. The current Administration is filled with so-called 'tough guys.' There is a man in my office that has the following posted in his cubicle: "It is God's job to judge the terrorists. It is the Marines' job to arrange the meeting."

When taken to the urban ghetto, fear is mistaken for respect. The violent gang leaders become heros against the oppressive establishment. Just listen to Hip-Hop lyrics.

And fuck all u cops u ain't shit to me
But hoes with guns playin hard for fun
So stay off my dick because I ain't the one
For anyone tryin to bust me up
U better chill with that tryin to fuck me up
And if you're talkin shit I'm gonna shut ya up
And all ya wack D.J.'s I'm gonna cut ya up
Cuz I don't give a fuck about no one
And when I wax I tax and that's just how it goes son
    - Kid Rock (Three Sheets to the Wind)

I know, I know, Kid Rock isn't really hip hop. He is a white guy from the suburbs, but that is my point. This is mainstream music, not some fringe group. This is what your son is listening to at age 15 in the USA.

What I liked about Bowling for Columbine, is that Michael Moore really did not point to one particular issue and blame that for the violence in America. He basically questioned the whole situation giving both arguments for and against each issue; access to guns, violent media, America's violent history, etc.
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Offline The Butcher

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Re: Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2006, 09:54:17 AM »
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
Whites aren't killing blacks by the score because we fear or hate them - nor are they killing us in large numbers for such reasons. So, racial strife can not account for it. So, what does?

And as for Columbine - and the many other cases of school shootings - what can explain it? BTW - I've noticed they have occured in rural or small town school systems. It is not a product of urban rot and ruin, as some assume. Any thoughts?

Well I can say that there is nothing quite so satisfying as the 'high' attained during the act of brutally murdering someone. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise probably hasn't had the pleasure! However, only a coward would resort to using a pistol instead of a cleaver or knife.
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Offline BuzzKill

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2006, 04:35:48 PM »
Thank you for your thoughts Butcher. I'll keep them in mind.

Pls Help we are a paranoid people, I think.

Atomic Ant - I know your right about the history and the culture - but is this culture really unique to the States? I wouldn't think so. For example, The successful cat burglar is respected in most all western cultures - and even those who kill if they seem to kill for 'good' - reason - or even if they don't - think the Godfather - a movie very popular the world over.  

How many people do you personally know who have been murdered - or have committed murder?  

If our numbers really are as wildly out of proportion to the rest of the "civilized" world - there has got to be something more behind it than a love for the under dog and a history of rebellion.
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Offline Deborah

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2006, 11:03:49 PM »
Moore did focus on an issue, "Culture of Fear" and Fear begets Violence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_fear
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/libr ... /index.php
http://www.earthlight.org/2002/essay47_deboer.html
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199607--.htm

There are some good clips from the movie here:
http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/media/clips/
Interview with Marilyn Manson-"Poster boy of Fear"
"I Loves My Gun" animation (Brief History of America)- Awesome, hilarious, and very direct to the point.

Despite the presence of guns in 7 out of 10 Canadian homes, there is less than one gun-murder in Canada for every 100 gun-murders in the United States.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
And white collar crime exceeds street crime exponentially.
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Offline Oz girl

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2006, 12:34:56 AM »
I will have to look at those sites deborah. I am aware that there is a certain level of suspicion of govt. i find this interesting because it means that private enterprise is trusted more. i would argue that govt is supposed to enforce somekind of minimum standard of practice on the private sector so that the enrons of the world dont take place. I also understand why at the time of the war of independence people felt strongly about bearing arms. But not now.
 
I can remember seeing bowling for columbine when it came out. What scared me was not the nuts. they exist everywhere. It was that there seems to be a pro gun movement among fairly mainstream citizens in some parts of America in spite of the fact that there are crazy militia groups in the US. if i knew that my mad neighbour felt strongly about over throwing the govt and shooting anyone who got in his way, i would want his access to lethal weapons limited. This would make me feel more relaxed.

The ultimate irony of this culture of fear is that it seems in a lot of towns in the US there is a strong sense of community and that people seem to really care about each other. You guys seem to be more philanthropic for example than your Australian counterparts. When i stay with relatives in the US I am always surprised that they actually know their neighbours. Where I live that is really rare. if anything between such strong communities and statistically well behaved kids who in some parts ponder what jesus would do before remembering to call adults mam and sir, you guys probably have less to fear.    :wink:
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Offline Dr Phil

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2006, 01:06:40 AM »
We have guns because they are an effective tool, and work well for what they were designed to do. I don't think it's much more complicated than that. You cannot uninvent the wheel. If your goal is to kill, is it any surprise the user seeks out the most effective means of accomplishing this? Will there not be laser school shooting two hundred years from now, or are they simply a byproduct of the tool, the gun, our culture, or both?
Go to a grade school play yard and watch the little boys play cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, or any other sort of game and realize the people stay the same, only the toys get bigger and more dangerous. Some of us choose sides, and the rest are stuck in the middle. Welcome to Sparta, the new warrior culture; you know what they say you live by the sword...
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Offline Dr Phil

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2006, 01:16:25 AM »
On the topic of Moore, I don't really like his films too much. I think he grandstands for his own publicty, and builds his fame off dead kids and bad presidents (he has stocks portfolios of tens of millions including haliburton, etc). I think the idea that you can get a free .22 rifle at a bank, is some how connected to school shootings to be ridiculous. I think he used a tragedy such as Columbine to serve his own agenda. As did the anti-video game people, and everyone else. Something terrible happens, and they bandwagon on to explain the cause. I don't think such a complex situation can be explained away by such a simple answer, and he is insulting the audiences intelligence by suggesting so. In most school shooting the kids steal the guns from their parents, why are they not held responsible. Parents want the government to do everything from drug test their children, diganosis mental illness to making sure they don't have guns. Shall we employ half the population as government agents to dearm, diagnosis and surveil the rest? It seems like that is where we are heading. If parents locked up their guns this would be a non-issue, like so many other issues being debated. I haven't seen banks handing out guns to 16 year olds. But then again, 20 somethings are shooting up schools in Montreal. I bet Moore is all over that one, eh?
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Offline Oz girl

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2006, 02:35:00 AM »
I somewhat agree that moore is a bit of a grnadstander. But the resons why i would argue that in any civilised country a govt should strictly limit the ownership of weapons which serve no purpose but to kill is because it makes no sense for people to own them. The idea that your average citizen can own something that can kill people in order to protect themself does not make any sense. This is what police officers and home security systems are for. It seems to contribute to a culture of fear. What is so free about that?
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Offline The Butcher

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 07:32:12 AM »
Quote from: ""Pls help""
I somewhat agree that moore is a bit of a grnadstander. But the resons why i would argue that in any civilised country a govt should strictly limit the ownership of weapons which serve no purpose but to kill is because it makes no sense for people to own them. The idea that your average citizen can own something that can kill people in order to protect themself does not make any sense. This is what police officers and home security systems are for. It seems to contribute to a culture of fear. What is so free about that?

Complete nonsense! The government should not ban guns, despite the fact that they're for cowards! {I much prefer the cleaver or knife in mortal combat.} You trust the gov't that much, eh?
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Offline Deborah

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 11:58:35 AM »
***I think he grandstands for his own publicty, and builds his fame off dead kids and bad presidents (he has stocks portfolios of tens of millions including haliburton, etc).

Really? You believe he ?builds his fame off dead kids?? Hmm. I saw him advocate for the victims of Columbine and desperately try to explain what pressures those boys were under to send them off the deep end.
As for stock, if this is true, can you fathom any reason (other than he?s a hypocrite) for him owning stock in the very companies he criticizes? Activism sometimes requires Guerilla tactics. Just as some have encouraged people to work in programs in order to get an inside view. When you own stock you can attend shareholders meetings, vote, and are privy to a lot more information. And what better than to use the proceeds earned from an investment in a given company to expose it?
Makes perfect sense to me. But the fact that so many people chose to buy the ?hypocrite? party line that was spun, is a perfect example that the average American is ?stupid?. Incapable of critical thinking, can?t see beyond what someone puts on the surface for them to see.

***I think the idea that you can get a free .22 rifle at a bank, is some how connected to school shootings to be ridiculous. I think he used a tragedy such as Columbine to serve his own agenda.

I didn?t get that he was making a connection there. While I think people should have the right to bare arms, and I agree with you that parents should be responsible for keeping them locked up away from children, the point is the fascination with guns in a Culture of Fear. I think it speaks volumes that a bank would offer a rifle as an incentive to open a $10,000 CD. Why not a lawnmower or TV or tickets to the symphony?

***As did the anti-video game people, and everyone else. Something terrible happens, and they bandwagon on to explain the cause. I don't think such a complex situation can be explained away by such a simple answer, and he is insulting the audiences intelligence by suggesting so.

Did you watch the interview with Marilyn Manson? I?m wondering because it directly refutes what you just wrote. Moore spent a good deal of time debunking the fear-mongering that the right was spinning about Manson etal being responsible for inspiring Columbine. I think Manson made one of the most intelligent comments in the movie when asked what he?d say to the Columbine kids, ?Nothing. I wouldn?t say anything. I?d listen to what they had to say. Which is what no one did.? Moore also interviews someone from Littleton to depict the attitude and pressures kids live under in that high pressure MC burb. He did not use kids or the tragedy for his own gain. Did you really watch this film? Or have you forgotten the details?

***In most school shooting the kids steal the guns from their parents, why are they not held responsible. Parents want the government to do everything from drug test their children, diganosis mental illness to making sure they don't have guns. Shall we employ half the population as government agents to dearm, diagnosis and surveil the rest? It seems like that is where we are heading. If parents locked up their guns this would be a non-issue, like so many other issues being debated.

Agreed. And I was impressed that they were able to pressure Kmart to stop selling ammo. Does it make sense that kids would be able to purchase bullets? He targeted Kmart because that?s where the boys had purchased the ammo used to shoot up Columbine. What was missing in that segment is the fact that the shooter was taking antidepressants, like the other school shooters, which can cause suicidal/homicidal thoughts and behaviors.

***But then again, 20 somethings are shooting up schools in Montreal. I bet Moore is all over that one, eh?

Now, let?s talk about someone capitalizing on dead kids. Why do you think Ladonne?s ?Super Columbine Massacre RPG!? was so popular with kids? The Montreal shooter listed it as a favorite.
http://tinyurl.co.uk/d913
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Offline Anonymous

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2006, 12:14:25 PM »
Quote
Really? You believe he ?builds his fame off dead kids??


Yep, that is what I really believe. I was the same age as the kids at Columbine when it happened, and in my opinion he doesn't come even close to the real reasons for the tragedy. I think he picks an issue, in this case gun control, and goes with it. Like you said about this new shooter in Montreal, I am sure the anti- video game crowd will be all over that... but can a video game really explain why someone becomes a killer and kills themself? I don't think so, and I don't think that gun restrictions would stop school shootings either. I feel that Moore's film is misdirection, rather than address the issues that lead to school shootings in society it's simplified and the audience is given a mantra to repeat, in this case no more guns. Moore could have easily blamed it on Marilyn Manson, as some politicians and others have done, if that was his issue. Or he could of gone the anti-depressant route. He didn't even mention it, again he gets to frame the issue, and in my opinion he missed the mark, dismissaly.

As far as the stocks. The guy makes a movie mocking the president for having financial connections to the bin ladins, and saudis, and war profiteering. Now that the guy has tens of millions of dollars he wants to keep safe, he invests in coporations that actually kill people like halliburton. He owns stock of a company who's job it is to provide mercenaries in a war zone, while making a film against said war. You can't get any more hypocritical than that, so why should we believe a work of his movies?
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Offline Dr Phil

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2006, 12:16:20 PM »
post was mine

Quote
And what better than to use the proceeds earned from an investment in a given company to expose it?


How would you feel about teen advocates taking jobs or investing with WWASPS.... how do you think that would go over ?
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Offline Deborah

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Bowling for Columbine
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2006, 12:35:46 PM »
And what, in your opinion, is the "mark he missed" HorseEater? What's the "real reason" Columbine, and the other school shootings, happened?

Yeh, he gets to frame the issue, based on the information he has at the time, the same thing all film makers do, or what anyone with an opinion does, for that matter. He may not have known about the antidepressant issue. He certainly addressed the unrealistic pressures kids in school deal with. And personally, I think this is a significant issue.

***How would you feel about teen advocates taking jobs or investing with WWASPS.... how do you think that would go over ?

Given that I know Barbe, I'd assume she had a good motive, until proven otherwise.
It wouldn't make sense that she worked for WWASPS while simultaneously hosting a forum that is critical, would it?
As I said, sometimes you have to look a little deeper than what's on the surface.
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