Jesus Camp

[Oz girl]

"I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means?"
 She is pretty open about being a christian jihadist. She admires almost everything about them except the fact that they are on the wrong side! in one of the clips she is pretty clear about this. She also does seem to spend a lot of time making kids no older than about 10 cry and going on "hell aint no disneyland" style rants to terrify these kids. There is also a clip of her lecturing about harry potter and claiming that the old testament would have him executed. Some of the kids who have obviously read one of his books look they feel pretty guilty!

I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such  summer camps as a kid?

[psy]

I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such  summer camps as a kid?

Unfortunately they are very common.  And i did attend several as a kid.  Among other games there was "smear the queer".  "Dying for Christ" is a fairly common theme (ie. martyrdom) though it is not meant to be interpreted as "killing for christ".  Big difference.  That's the job of the US Army.  If the lady who was at this camp implied that killing for christ is good she is waaaaay out of the "mainstream", even for the far right.

These places are brainwash camps yes, but what organized religion does not do this to some extent.  What are you going to do?  Ban religion?  The kids genuinely like it there at these camps and they are loved and treated well.  As much as i have bitterness against some Christians, i grew up in such an enviornment and can tell you that much of what was shown in the trailer for the movie was taken out of context of it's meaning.

People are (usually) still free to disagree at these places and voice thier opinion.  There are a lot of kids who are forced to be there yes, but if they aren't "believers" going in they are unlikely to be "believers" going out.  Lots of these kids just pretend to fit in.  Usually they're in the back of the room chuckling as the more enthusiastic Christians spaz out on the floor.

Personally I think we should just drop this thread.  Kids aren't being abused at these camps unless you count religious indoctrination as abuse.  Programs differ from religion in that they try to establish the program itself as the object of worship.  These camps are temporary.  It's not like the kids are forced to live there long term.

[Anonymous]

Well I've attended many different kinds of Churches & Church groups & Sunday Schools & Retreats & I  certainly never experienced anything remotely like what this is described as being - nor ever heard of anything like it. Nor have I ever heard of game like "smear the queer"! Or dying for Christ either. So - I would dispute any such thing as being common in Christian churches.

What kind of church did you attend where this was common??!!

[Anonymous]

Karen, are you jacking the thread to be an apologetic when thats really beside the point of JESUS CAMP IS BRAINWASHING?

Tch...

No - I am not.
Lets talk about it some. How is it brain washing in the same sense that we understand the Programs are brain washing? How are they similar or dis-similar?I am at a disadvantage not having seen the film, but judging from what I read here,  I would oppose the kind of frantic hyper-emotionalism being described. But this still doesn't make it brain washing. Does it cross the line into brain washing? If so - how?

I'm concerned that this woman is talking about creating a Christian version of the Jihadist. That is most alarming. But I wonder if it wasn't just a very poor choice of words, that isn't representing what she actually means? There is some concern that Christian children are not being given the tools they need - the firm foundation required - to understand their faith and put it into practice in their lives. I wonder if she means she wants to help Christian children believe and live their faith as ardently as so many Muslems do - minus the strapping on of bombs to blow up the infidel.

I question the teaching about being willing to die for Christ, meaning what you seem to think it means. Keeping in mind any Christian should be wiling to do so - and indeed many have; and still are in much of the world - but as Martyrs - not terrorist. Its a very different kind of thing. But - while this is what I would Guess she means - I do not know - and maybe she is some kind of loon. I would be concerned about the age of her "campers". I see no need to tell young children they must be willing to die for anything. This is like feeding tuff meat to babes who need warm milk.

"Hyperemotionalism" as you so eloquently put it IS brainwashing, in a nutshell!

It crosses the line into brainwashing by emotionally manipulating them based on very basal, primal and intense emotions to believe in what the person leading it wants them to believe... it doesnt matter if its 1+1=3, "there is no right or wrong only what works (plus the program)" or the dogma of any religion!

Get it?

There is a difference between believing in a religion (and its arguable that its just so much fairy tale baloney, but that is COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT HERE) and fucking with their emotions until they totally flip the fuck out about it and have terrors about being a sinner, sobbing for forgiveness, blah blah blah. To a believer its just an "affirmation of faith" becuase it meshes with what you believe and want to see, but psychologically speaking its all so much brain chemistry and psychological regression.

So yes, hyperemotionalism IS brainwashing, more or less by definition.

[Anonymous]

I am just wondering are such places common? Did anyone attend such  summer camps as a kid?

Unfortunately they are very common.  And i did attend several as a kid.  Among other games there was "smear the queer".  "Dying for Christ" is a fairly common theme (ie. martyrdom) though it is not meant to be interpreted as "killing for christ".  Big difference.  That's the job of the US Army.  If the lady who was at this camp implied that killing for christ is good she is waaaaay out of the "mainstream", even for the far right.

These places are brainwash camps yes, but what organized religion does not do this to some extent.  What are you going to do?  Ban religion?  The kids genuinely like it there at these camps and they are loved and treated well.  As much as i have bitterness against some Christians, i grew up in such an enviornment and can tell you that much of what was shown in the trailer for the movie was taken out of context of it's meaning.

People are (usually) still free to disagree at these places and voice thier opinion.  There are a lot of kids who are forced to be there yes, but if they aren't "believers" going in they are unlikely to be "believers" going out.  Lots of these kids just pretend to fit in.  Usually they're in the back of the room chuckling as the more enthusiastic Christians spaz out on the floor.

Personally I think we should just drop this thread.  Kids aren't being abused at these camps unless you count religious indoctrination as abuse.  Programs differ from religion in that they try to establish the program itself as the object of worship.  These camps are temporary.  It's not like the kids are forced to live there long term.

The passive stuff you get in NORMAL (by my standards at least...) churches/sunday school/parenting is a FAR cry from the intentional, "hyperemotional", fits-an-LGAT-to-a-T shit Jesus Camp was employing. Emotional manipulation, regression... hello? Thats what brainwashing IS!

[Anonymous]

I'm not so sure hyper emotionalism is, in an of itself, brain washing. I don't know that there are long lasting effects - either good or bad - as a result of attending such a service.

To call it brain washing I would think you'd need other accompanying factors - such as sleep depravation ; hunger; as well as other stressors.

I would argue a change must take place in the persons thinking, beliefs, and behavior,  that is in opposition to what they formally believed, to call it brain washing.

Hyper emotionalism is part of it - but by itself - in other wise well feed and rested persons, who are generally in agreement with the message, can not accurately be called brain washing - IMO.

Now - I do realize when speaking of children, the picture may be changed dramatically; but I would still question the long term effect; or lack there of; and so weather it crosses the line into "brain washing".

[psy]

Well I've attended many different kinds of Churches & Church groups & Sunday Schools & Retreats & I  certainly never experienced anything remotely like what this is described as being - nor ever heard of anything like it. Nor have I ever heard of game like "smear the queer"! Or dying for Christ either. So - I would dispute any such thing as being common in Christian churches.

What kind of church did you attend where this was common??!!

Well if you really need to have specifics: The Church of the Apostles in Fairfax, Va; Which had "Halleluja Parties" so kids wouldn't be polluted by halloween.  My family also attended a host of other churches such as the Evangelical Free Church in Annandale (non demoninational, which was also the one in which "smear the queer" was played in youth group).  In general. I'd say this type of thing is quite common among the "bible thumping" crowd.

Yes it is hyperemotional and it borders on brainwashing but it's not like propheets / Friendship Workshop where it's a marathon without food or sleep and traumatic experiences are brought up so you feel like shit and they can later console you.  It's a lot different.  The girl in the trailer was most likely crying tears of joy believe it or not.  These are happy places and although one could argue the happiness is a bit "over the top" with people feeling the "love of god", i don't think it crosses the line of brainwashing any more than the effect of any other group phenomenon including political polarization.

I am not a Christian.  Personally, i can't stand most of em, but i do think they are often unfarily picked on by those who see a snippet of somebody beeing "slain in the spirit" and take it out of context.  Such experiences are rare (unless it's a group event specifically for that purpose) and most of them are probably pretending (i know i did).  The kid flopping around like a fish was probably pretending.  From what i have been told, it is a feeling of peace which "overcomes you".  A lot of this stuff just has to be demystified and explained which was not apparantly the goal of the film, which was to present a carefully edited "freak show".  I however do think, however, bringing a political figure (bush) into a religious institution to have kids look up to him is despicable.

So fucking what if people have wacky beliefs and teach it to their kids.  I don't aggree with it, i think kids should have the choice; however it is a parent's right raise a kid as he/she wants as long as it does not cross the line into abuse.  This is freedom of religion at it's best or worst depending on how you look at it.

[psy]

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this.  Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives".  Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to.  Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

[Anonymous]

///My family also attended a host of other churches such as the Evangelical Free Church in Annandale (non demoninational, which was also the one in which "smear the queer" was played in youth group). In general. I'd say this type of thing is quite common among the "bible thumping" crowd. ///


Well again - I have never heard of anything like this - not even close - and I have associated with many a Bible Thumper and Bible Belt church.  Frankly - I am shocked anything like this would ever go on in a Christian youth group. It sounds more like something that might take place at a Klan rally.

Speaking of the Klan, I once was friends with a gal who had grown up in the KKK - and she was raising her children with the same rabid hate she was raised with. Now that was upsetting - but it was her right as a parent to do so. I'll never forget her oldest telling me, with a sweet little girl's smile, how she hated a long list of peoples and cultures.

Still, there is every possibility her daughters could grow up to see the lies, and to reject totally all they were taught from the cradle. Same for any American kid being brought up with any ideology.

The thing is - in this country - most all people are exposed to a mix of ideas and beliefs and practices - and being individuals with minds of their own, can and do go there own way despite (or to spite) the old folks.

On the other hand - it is true family values and traditions and beliefs do tend to be persistent and hard to over come, even when one is trying.

My Klan friend had a terrible time coming to understand not all Jews were evil; and not all blacks were stupid; and not all Southern Whites were anything remotely like a superior race.  Getting out into the working world and seeing evidence that all she had been taught was wrong, was a shock for her - but she lived threw it. You should have seen her face as she admitted to me, she had asked her priest, and he had confirmed that Jesus was Jewish!

[Anonymous]

I'm not so sure hyper emotionalism is, in an of itself, brain washing. I don't know that there are long lasting effects - either good or bad - as a result of attending such a service.

To call it brain washing I would think you'd need other accompanying factors - such as sleep depravation ; hunger; as well as other stressors.

I would argue a change must take place in the persons thinking, beliefs, and behavior,  that is in opposition to what they formally believed, to call it brain washing.

Hyper emotionalism is part of it - but by itself - in other wise well feed and rested persons, who are generally in agreement with the message, can not accurately be called brain washing - IMO.

Now - I do realize when speaking of children, the picture may be changed dramatically; but I would still question the long term effect; or lack there of; and so weather it crosses the line into "brain washing".

Do you even know what brainwashing is? In all seriousness, not an insult, do you actually know what it is, how its done, and what it entails?

Also, if you can twist religion into it, you dont NEED to starve them, the "fear of god" is enough to motivate you and to emotionally jolt you into belief without it.

Brainwashing boils down to fucking with someones emotions and feelings and breaking them down (thus psychological regression or hyperemotionalism, as you put it...) until they are full of what you want them to be full of, and their logical, rational, critical self is gone. There is no set criteria of "if its not this this and this its not brainwashing blah blah blah" so much as does whatever is being done manipulate them and break them down enough they are being unduly influenced or not.

Those children were rather clearly under extreme emotional stress (whether or not they were fed or slept is irrelevant...) and not only are you fucking with a childs mind but using religion to pry their head open so yes, I would say it is brainwashing.

Trying to define something else and say it is that might be useful for someone defending it but franky, what the hell is the difference between "hyperemotionalism" and brainwashing? Honestly, what good is being done to call it "hyperemotional" but not brainwashing?

Is that okay? is Hyperemotional nonsense with kids somehow justified?

NO!

[Anonymous]

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this.  Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives".  Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to.  Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...

IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.

[Anonymous]

IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.

I think for just as many people it's defining some sort of meaning, in an otherwise seeming meaningless existence. Why I am here? What's the point in waking up tomorrow? T

[psy]

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this.  Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives".  Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to.  Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...

IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.

Well duh.  When i was four this was tried on me and it worked.  By the time i was 10 i had realized it was bullshit.  Not everybody buys that "hell" crap.  I didn't for a simple reason, the logic does not add up:

A: Bible Says God is Just (gravity of crime = gravity of punishment)
B: Hell is eternal and thus infinite punishment.

There is no infinite crime (common friggin sense). so if A is true, B cannot be. (unless the inverse is true, god is not just, and thus we should kill him)  But of course i'm questioning "god's wisdom" if i argue this to Christians.

There are a lot of people who will sit through these things and think what's being said is horse shit.  Sure the existance of hell is a scary thing for kids, but not all of them believe what they are told.  I just thought they were a bit wacky.  For this reason, I thought whatever brainwashing my school, Benchmark Young Adult School, could throw at me, would magically bounce off.  Wrong.  Religion maybe be 10% proof kool-aid but Lifespring / Propheets / Raps, and the rest of the programs tools, will break even the most hardened.

Sleep deprivation, hunger, guided imagery, NLP, trances to remember / re-experience traumatic events, disclosure circles, pile-ups, Raps, dirt lists...  These things are the tools of true brainwashing.

Even if religion was brainwashing, there are no practical ways to outlaw it and doing so, i feel, would be crossing the line.  People have a right to their beliefs, and i don't think it's right to sit back and say "this is how they are and it's wrong".  Everybody's religion / culture / whatever always has odd aspects when looked at from an outsider's POV.  It is rather pointless to discuss whether or not something is "brainwashing" when stopping/banning it would be an infinately worse violation of ethics.

I have experienced both these "jesus camps" and a CEDU clone program and i tell you there is no comparison possable.  Programs attempt to permanantly alter your thinking, your thought process, your loyalties,  and your very image of yourself, not merely your beliefs.

[Anonymous]

There has been a lot of discussion of this concept of choice. i dont think it is any real kind of choice for these kids as they are too little.

 I am sure that most do want to attend the camp and I dont think i would go as far as to call it abuse, even if it is insane and bizarre. But how can anyone reasonably expect a small child to stand up to this woman and disagree or even question her authority? Small children are motivated by a desire to please those that they look up to. She is pretty formidable and scary. I could see how it would be easy for even a cynical 12 year old who is only there to play soccer to get caught up in the hysterical frenzy.
The thing about it is that while she agrees with the Islamic Jhadists methods she thinks that their god is the wrong guy. Given that both Muslm extemists and jackboot christians are both equally down on booze "the gays" any sins of the flesh and all the other fun stuff which constitues day to day life for most people perhaps they should just delcare a truce with each other and start a war on liberal athests!

[Anonymous]

I must also epphasize the element of choice in this.  Christians believe one must ask Jesus to "come into their lives".  Nobody is ever forced to do it and people are not ostracized if they choose not to.  Yes it means your Christians friends will bug you about it from time to time but it is hardly program style coersion.

The emotional attack of "you'll go to hell if you do not" is still present...

IMHO the biggest reason people turn to religion is the overriding terror of annihilation that believers have. Well, that and hell for the mental midgets, but whatever.

Not to hi-jack the thread - but I would like to respond. This is such a common miss-understanding of the Christian faith that a comment or two seems justified.

Yes, I know some preachers are "Hell Fire" preachers; and they seek to hold their congregation in fear of damnation. But I feel this is an error on their part - and believing this is the basis of the average Christian's belief is just plain wrong.

I think most believing Christians believe b/c they have seen evidence of the reality of God. They have come to recognize they have a Creator. Consequently, they begin to gather some sense of His awesome majesty, power and Holiness. Altho it is only the slightest glimpse of the reality of God, (as if through a glass darkly) it can be overwhelming - sometimes leaving them in tears, springing from a deep sense of Joy and Appreciation.

They believe, and try to serve, not from a fear of damnation - b./c they know they are saved - but out of Love for their Creator; and in thanks for the Gift of Grace - and in acknowledgment that the only safe place to be is in the center of His will.

Now - I know ya'll think this is majorly "midget-minded" ; and many of you no doubt believe such thoughts delusion of the highest order. Nevertheless - this is what its about (in a nut-shell) for the Christian.