CCM, I have just a few questions for you. And no, Im not attacking you.
- What defines a good program?
- How can a program be 'good', but still be... a program?
- How do you justify lock-in forced 'treatment' if nothing if they dont justify for in-patient treatment in a psychiatric hospital morally, and ethically?
- How can you ethically force treatment on a kid and make it effective?
- How do you defend the fact that not one program has ever proven its efficacy and that all programs we've seen here boil down to nothing more than isolation and coersion with the intent of creating a regression and a euphoric feeling after the regression so they're easier to indoctrinate, aka "brainwash", dont provide therapy, dont provide any lasting 'fixes', and leave them more messed up than they went in.
Or, gimme the cliffs notes on how a program can still be a program but not abuse them, not lock them up, not isolate them from family and friends and legal representation, and not fuck them up socially and hurt them deeply psycholgoically, but still actually be effective at all... especially when you cant FORCE therapy on anyone, programs only 'work' by breaking them down, and the medical profession has committed itself to "minimal control and discomfort" in treatment - if theyre not a danger to themselves or others, they're not locked up, basically.
You cant MAKE a kid change without resorting to mind control, so what are you saying, that there are some forms of coersion that are ok, and some that are not?
This isnt intended to be an attack or affront at you, just asking you to think about what you say and try to come to terms with the facts about what makes a "program" a "program" and not a "school for kids with problems and/or bad parents who want to ditch them".
A good program starts at the top with the people who create it, they need to be of healthy mind and spirit. A good program has good people working for it some who have degrees in psychology, others who might not but atleast provide adequate training in how to handle teens that have issues. These schools cannot be overcrowded, 4 kids per room. They need to have rules, boundries, and limitations set in place, but reasonable ones so it's not a constant form of being able to punish them. With all the money they receive for housing these kids, there should be ammenities such as swimming, an athletic field, and some type of activity that includes animals. Every kid is different, but there needs to be things that stimulate their minds, body, and souls. Therapy is always good. You'll find that most kids want to talk about there feelings. I maybe only saw a couple times where kids actually refused therapy. Hey, they should have that option, and therapy shouldn't be forced. With kids, I want you to be patience.
Programs don't need to be toughlove to be effective. These kids don't need to be pushed around, and told what to do. Sorry, I know there are some parents out there that failed as parents, but is it your kids fault? No, it's not. Programs should be built out of love not hate. Kids should be encouraged by being healthy they will get further in life. You don't need to program a kid, and cram it down their throat, for them to get it. You show them how to succeed in life, and give them the tools to do it, if they choose not to take those tools fine, but later on down the rode they might. If you force kids you will get some who may take the tools, but most will either pretend to take them, or out of pure rebellious behaivor throw them in your face. You have to remember that teens are mini-adults. Do you like things being crammed down your throat? I sure the hell don't, and I doubt those of you reading this do either. Well, it's kinda like that. If somebody points something out to me that I am not doing right, or they have a better more efficent way of doing it, I will take the time to listen to them, and think about what they had to say, and perhaps change my ways. But, if somebody tries to force me to do it their way, and tells me how I was doing it all wrong blah, blah, blah.......I'm going to be like screw you buddy!!!!
As far as lockdown treatment is concerned, there needs to be valid reasons for doing this. I wouldn't be able to justify programs that force treatment upon kids.
You can not ethically force treatment on anyone, and why would you want to? It takes the credit out of the kids hands for being able to finally see themselves going down the wrong path of life and deciding to do something about it on their own, and puts credit into somebody elses hands whether it be the parents, the therapists, or program directors/owners.
The programs we focus on here at Fornits have very little efficiency because of how screwed up they are in their structure. That's why we talk about them. There are good programs out there. But, it's not any of the ones mentioned here. I don't have anything to do with Fornits, besides posting here. But, look at it like a small parking lot with reserved spaces for programs who like to intimidate, brainwash, punish, abuse, falsley represent themselves, lie to parents, lie to kids, have hidden agendas, force their religious beliefs on children, practice cult like techniques for mind control and reprogramming. Look, I could go on forever and forever.
I'm running out of steam here. I don't know what you want from me? I hope I have answered most of your questions. Excuse me while I go grab some coffee.
CCM, you're forgetting a few things.
1. Who is to decide if they should go? If they should stay? The Medical guidelines for being forced to stay somewhere is only if they need it... if you cant force it, then you have to let them go, otherwise you're forcing it! It is a catch-22! How do you keep them there?
2. Institutionalizing someone in some 'magical school/program/hogwarts' really has little basis in reality, Im sorry to say. You're ripping them from their environment... all thier comfort, their hobbies, friends, family, romantic interests, familiarity, is GONE, and is now provided to them by an insitution, and theyre isolated from the world becuase they're inside of it. People who remove kids from abusive home environments who work for social services often say that doing that to them is often worse tahn any benefit given by removing them from an abusive parent! But this isnt just a foster home, this is an INSTITUTION!
3. How do you replace the normal growth and development someone gets where theyre free to socialize and go out and do shit after school around an actual, real community without walls and fences, in an institution? That element is STILL THERE, even if they have access to the outside world via computers or phones or mail, unless its just a case of schooling and boarding.
4. What if they're recalcitrant to the program? What if nothing is actually wrong with them? And what if something IS wrong, but they dont want to 'work the program'?
5. What "rules, boundaries, and consequences" without outright torture and coersion... why would you want any more than what people get normally, anyway, exactly? What if theyre not violent, but simply dont want to 'work the program'?
Im not against your ideas, but in practicality it kind of falls apart - and there are more than a few things an institution simply can not provide - freedom, first of all.
If their parents just dont want them or their relationship is so
strained its torture for the kid, some sort of 'halfway house' thats not coersive seems like a good idea, IMHO. The point is to help them function in a free, open society, not have to live in an institution and try to make it some "magical place" cut off from the outside world and forced to spill their beans to therapists on cue and repeat canned phrases... which is what happens in institutions.
Im not trying to bust your balls or rain on your parade here, but IMHO the crux of the problem is that its an institution in the first place and that ultimately there is coersion... and that the kid is taking the blame for failed parenting - that, and if they're a teenager, they need to learn how to stand on their own two feet anyway, not "grow" and "thrive" *BARF* in some 'environment' thats 'structured'. Unless they plan on being a career military guy, anyway.
Niles,
I'm sorry but your statement in paragraph 2 is ridiculous. The one about people who work for social services that remove kids from abusive homes is causing them more harm then good. What?!! Are you kidding me! Who said that? That's pretty twisted.
Parents don't have to be parents if they don't want to be anymore. We have a lot of selfish people that should've never had kids in the first place. Kids sense this, that's the beginning of their problems. Parents will always have the option of sending them away. There are some programs that are better then others. I don't care if people rip kids from their enviroment or comfort quite frankly. Because, take this from someone who had an alcoholic Mother, I was 5 and wandering on the beach late at night making forts and such. This was in Long Beach, CA. not the most safest place in the world. My Dad fought long and hard to get custody of me, it was my step-bitch Mom who didn't want me. At the age of 11 after putting up with her bullshit for 6 years I told her and my Dad I want to live with my Mother. So, off I went back to my Mom's where I had little to no supervision, was lost in my own world wandering the downtown into the wee hours while she was parked at the local bar. I was getting into trouble, and nobody cared. I'm lucky I didn't end up dead. It wasn't until my Mom was really high on drugs one night and I was running a 104 temperature she called the paramedics and they took us both to the hospital. I ended up getting picked up by social services, and taken back to my Dad's, she ended up in a mental hospital for a couple weeks for evaluation. In one years time I was unrecognizable. The woman from social services started pushing me in the door at my Dad's, as they were pushing me out (they thought I was one of my friends). I had bleached my hair almost white, and was thin as a rail. I will never forget the words out of their mouths once the recognized me.
She can't stay here. We don't want her. We told her if she were to go live with her Mom she could never come back. Well, in the next couple weeks they drug me around to different psych hospitals in the area, none of them would take me. It wasn't until they had contacted Heritage School that somebody would take somebody as young as me 12. They kept their promise, I was never going to return home. So, I bounced from Heritage to Cross Creek to St. George when I ran away and lived on my own. It wasn't fun. I had three options since I had no job experience. Work at a old folkes home, be a hotel maid, or flip burgers.
I had volunteered at an old folks home through Heritages Program years back, so how bad could it be? Well, lets just say it was awful. I was in charge of bathing old people who would always shit themselves in the shower. That's why they sit them on one of those rolling toilet seats. I have seen more wrinkled genitals then most people on here have, so enjoy it while you got it folkes! I quit after I was forced to brush a dead womans teeth before her family came to visit her, I had saved this womans life when I heard her choking in her sleep a week prior a little much for a 16 year old girl don't you think?
Next job, I was a hotel maid, What a horrible maid I was! While other toothless women in there 40's were kicking my ass by completing 25 rooms compared to my 15. I was soon fired. Look, lifes not easy. For some of these kids they would prefer to be in a nuturing enviroment as oppossed to living on their own. It's not easy. Don't kid yourself. Thank god my parents agreed to give me a small amount of money per month that barely covered my rent, and top ramen.
Anyway, Niles........I don't have the answers for all your questions. But, kids aren't always at fault. It's the parents who truely can't be bothered or who don't have the skills to raise a teenager. So, I do believe that people can create programs for kids that will help them sort everything out. Sometimes that does need to be in a controlled enviroment. Sorry, but it does. With rules, yes. But, not more then any normal family would have.
I needed help, I got help. But, the kind of treatment I was in was meant for a year, maybe a year and a half? I should've been able to go to a real boarding school, not left to rot in these places. In the end after being there for as long as I was I believe it did more harm then good.
Places should be monitored. I wish the state would go in, and pull records 2 times a year and see how long these kids have been warehoused for. When it gets to be long periods of time they need to start asking questions. They need to talk directly to these kids. Half way houses should be an option, or foster homes. Kids should not be left to rot.
We have different views Niles. I am not sure what your past is like. I am not afraid to post what has happened in my life. If someone could take something, and learn from it, then I am happy for them. Hopefully they will avoid mistakes I have made, and my parents made. But, sometimes people need to make mistakes to grow. Hopefully not at their childrens expense though.
Bottom line, you cannot force parents to be parents. Also you can't emancipate kids at age 14. They do not have the skills, or the emotional/financial strength to make it. Look what is your solution to this big mess we have here? I'd like to know.
