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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2006, 10:21:20 PM »
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But I do believe there is a need to seperate people who are dangers to themselves (in reality, not the alleged 'he will die otherwise' crap), and those who are physically addicted to substances.


This is already in place, but they don't send kids to programs, they send them to psychiatric care units.
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Offline chaking

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« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2006, 10:23:24 PM »
Yes, you are correct.
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Offline chaking

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« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2006, 10:26:30 PM »
Also, I do suggest reading the link Kat posted up a few posts back... It has Dr. Charley Huffine explaining his position very well.

I believe if you look at what he says, it does hold true to what I am advocating.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2006, 10:42:49 PM »
Quote from: ""chaking""
Quote from: ""katfish""
Quote from: ""chaking""
So, in your view a federal law needs to be enacted granting a younger age of consent? That would be the only way I can see to actually allow a person under 18 to have the right to defy their parent's wishes in terms of placement.
That, though, could lead to a world of problems. Not the least of which would be deciding when a kid can actually make rational decisions for themselves.  When I was sent away, would I have checked myself into a center or not? Probably not. Did I need some help. Probably.


I think the age of consent needs to be lowered, personally- within certain contstraints of course.   It doesn't have to be all or nothing.  Defying parents if they are irrational is not a bad thing... each person needs to be asses differently. I'm against institutionalization period, unless the person is a threat.


I agree with Charley on this one.  - you say, would i have checked myself in and respond 'no'...well, at a certain point you have some rational sense, talking would have helped... but no one changes by force... and if they do, it's only superficial until the external regimine is removed.  


http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35

I don't have enough information to say whether the age of consent should be lowered or not.  I do think that would be much more difficult to persuade people of, than regulating the industry as a whole. Although I've heard Washington State does have a good model for age of consent (something like 14?)... So it might be worth checking out. But on a federal level, that might be a very hard proposition to pass.

And as for forced therapy. Obviously that doesn't work. But I do believe there is a need to seperate people who are dangers to themselves (in reality, not the alleged 'he will die otherwise' crap), and those who are physically addicted to substances.  They need separation for a time so that they may regain some "free will" and not "addicted will"...


Federal would interfere with state sovrienty, as I understand it this would not happen... but a state to state effort to that end wouldn't be a bad idea, IMHO...


Although, maybe there's hope- I have zero working knowledge of the law, this is pure speculation...



The argument that Congress exceeded its power under the Fourteenth Amendment(2) when it enacted Title II of the ADA is based on the case of City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997).(3) In that case, the Supreme Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment gives Congress the power to enact civil rights statues only if (a) the statute is designed to remedy a history of unconstitutional conduct and (2) the remedy contained in the statute ? for example, requiring states to make reasonable accommodations ? is "proportionate" to the history of constitutional violations.(4)

Relying on City of Boerne, states have argued that Title II is not designed to remedy a record of unconstitutional discrimination by states against people with disabilities. The opponents argue that there is no such history, despite Congressional findings to the contrary. According to the opponents, there may have been discrimination, but the discrimination did not violate the constitution or was not widespread. Moreover, the opponents say, even if there was a record of unconstitutional discrimination, the ADA is not a "proportionate" response. Congress "went overboard" and imposed obligations on states that are "excessive."

Opponents acknowledge that, when Congress legislates to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment, it can outlaw conduct that is not itself unconstitutional and impose requirements not contained in the constitution itself. However, they note, Congress can do so only in limited circumstances. Congress can "prohibit a somewhat broader swath of conduct" than that prohibited by the constitution, but only for the purpose of remedying or deterring unconstitutional conduct.(5)

http://www.bazelon.org/issues/disabilit ... tmemo.html
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2006, 10:44:18 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
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This is already in place, but they don't send kids to programs, they send them to psychiatric care units.


That's not true... plenty of suicidal kids are sent to program... case in point- yours truely!  Or Pauls kid- part of ASTART, who ultimtely commited suicide there... extreme negligence on their (the program's) part.  See Ryan Lewis - Alldredge Academy.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2006, 10:52:01 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
But I do believe there is a need to seperate people who are dangers to themselves (in reality, not the alleged 'he will die otherwise' crap), and those who are physically addicted to substances.

This is already in place, but they don't send kids to programs, they send them to psychiatric care units.


substance abuser arent' sent to psych, unless they're dual- then it's off to MICA place.... but not always, not in my expeirience anyway, we had girls coming of meth, they were all messed up.... their cure=exercise. Maybe for meth medical detox isn't necc.   But pure substance abuse isn't a psych placement, it's a detox/rehab. placement.
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
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Offline chaking

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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2006, 11:01:12 PM »
You are right kat, I would argue though that even though kids were sent to our facilities for said problems, this would not have been accepted by the state... just guessing though...
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Offline chaking

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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2006, 11:06:28 PM »
Quote from: ""katfish""
Federal would interfere with state sovrienty- would never happen... but a state to state effort to that end wouldn't be a bad idea, IMHO

True...Since it might be inconceivable, though, to expect all states to adopt such a resolution... I think maybe a combination of regulation that states something along the lines of George Miller's EICA Act of 05 (i.e. The state receiving the child must hold true to the standards of the state the child is being received from) and a good number of individual states passing age of consent similar to Washington would work well in conjunction with each other.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2006, 12:10:05 AM »
Quote from: ""chaking""
You are right kat, I would argue though that even though kids were sent to our facilities for said problems, this would not have been accepted by the state... just guessing though...


Well, turning a blind eye by not ensuring this is not occurring and not following up, not requiring anything essentially of these facilities makes it appear as such... but my guess is that youth have to be hospitatlized if they are considered a suicide therat.
 anywhere in th US
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Offline chaking

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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2006, 12:18:36 AM »
Officially considered a threat. yes. But we both know officially is not the only way for someone to be a threat.  And I don't recall too many kids sent to the programs we were, who were sent from the state after trying to commit suicide? I could be wrong, as I haven't looked into any statistics on this lately.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #40 on: July 19, 2006, 06:40:36 AM »
Quote from: ""chaking""
.... I haven't looked into any statistics on this lately.


b/c there are none... heh.

Sure, person can be a threat unbeknownst to others...  I suspect a good number (not the majority far as I can tell) of kids have at least a history of depression or suicidal ideation and are still sent to these programs... Not to say this makes them a threat, bt certainly a potential threat to themselves.
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Offline katfish

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« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2006, 05:30:57 PM »
Quote from: ""katfish""

The argument that Congress exceeded its power under the Fourteenth Amendment(2) when it enacted Title II of the ADA is based on the case of City of Boerne v. Flores, 521 U.S. 507 (1997).(3) In that case, the Supreme Court held that the Fourteenth Amendment gives Congress the power to enact civil rights statues only if (a) the statute is designed to remedy a history of unconstitutional conduct and (2) the remedy contained in the statute ? for example, requiring states to make reasonable accommodations ? is "proportionate" to the history of constitutional violations.(4)



Barbara Bennett Woodhouse, the director of the Center on Children & the Law at the University of Florida, stated, "The constitution has been interpreted to allow teens effectively to be imprisoned by private companies like [escort services] and private schools like [unregulated "specialty boarding schools"]---as long as their parents sign off. If these were state schools or state police, the children would have constitutional protections, but because it is parents who are delegating their own authority, it has been very difficult to open the door to protection of the child (Labi, 2004, 79).
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Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2006, 12:50:10 AM »
keep those responses comin'!!
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