Author Topic: I used to hate people. but now...  (Read 12953 times)

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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2006, 10:56:25 PM »
I can understand the parent being concerned about kids doing poorly in school in that education increases options. (not to the point of sending a kid to a programme) but I wonder what the parents of kids who are just not academically interested or inclined actually do for their kids on this score. I wonder if many take a socially snobbish view to trades and apprenticeships. i know if i had the choice between this & some programme for my kid id soon get over the snobbery. I wonder if it is even an option that many talk to their kid about trying to pursue. In Australia at the moment their is a skill shortage in many of the trades because of this mentality. The irony is that many trades pay quite well over here. What is the situation over where you are?
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2006, 12:17:52 AM »
My sister (a graduate student) said they were told in a Career Counseling course recently that there is a shortage of workers in vocational/trades here as well. That older workers aren?t retiring because there is no one to replace them. Years ago, the boys who weren?t academically inclined were usually those who took woodworking, metal shop, auto shop, etc. I don?t think most high schools offer those now. I tend to hear about them in rural districts but not in the cities/burbs.

In Texas, a teen can quit school at 17 with parental consent. Quitting prior to 17 requires a judge?s approval and I feel certain a condition of quitting would be to take and pass the GED. Kids who get in trouble with the law can be sent to Vocational ?BM? (residential) programs.

I can?t speak about the situation nationwide, but a few districts around here are building Vocational schools. One must be enrolled in the district in order to attend. I don?t know the particulars or what is offered.

The Texas Workforce Commission has a training program for ?at risk?  16-20 year olds. Must have a GED, under or unemployed, and meet the income requirement, among other criteria. If one qualifies the training is free and they can receive a stipend for gas/transportation. I think they may also pay for childcare for unwed moms. Not sure of what training options are available. It?s actually a pretty good program but not heavily publicized.
http://www.twc.state.tx.us/svcs/youthin ... th1203.pdf
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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2006, 12:59:38 AM »
Deborah,  I am not saying that suiing over a mistake mastectomy is running up the cost of malpractice insurance and thus the cost of health care.  

Just how many malpractice lawsuits do you think are as serious as a mistake mastectomy??  

I was not aware of Bush making any changes to the malpractice suit issue-  just tht he wished to, but I wasn't aware that he actually managed to pull that off.  

But seriously...  if really, God Forbid, your loved one had died possibly because they took some drug which made them form a blood clot, or something along those lines... should  you really receive $250 million for that??  

Regarding C-sections-  if you are so sure that these births could have been performed vaginally, then why not just birth babies at home?  Years ago, death rates during childbirth were 1:5.  You want to take your chances??  Go ahead.  Maybe it will reduce the incidence of malpractice lawsuits and thus reduce the rates of malpractice insurance, and then there will be enough obstetricians to go around to deliver babies for those of us who consider a safe birth to be more important than our own egos and our ability to push a healthy baby out vaginally sans intervention.  

If Americans weren't so sue-happy, then more obstetricians would be willing to forego a C-section and allow the mother to keep trying with the vaginal birth.  But obstetricians must protect the baby as well as their license, both before the mother's ego.  Otherwise, who will deliver all the babies to come after?

If you have that little faith in obstetricians, then birth your babies at home, without their help.
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egan Flynn
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2006, 02:51:20 AM »
OH yes lets clamour for our government to fart gold coins and piss diamonds also.

The malpractice problem has been about long before Bush came into office.

And sorry Pls Help everyone pays taxes regardless of income bracket. We call the sales taxes, and other sorts of things rather than direct income taxes. Most people living under the poverty line get money back from the government rather than pay actual taxes.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2006, 04:54:35 AM »
I should have clarified.I meant inocme tax not a GST etc
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2006, 09:12:28 AM »
Quote from: ""Three Springs Waygookin""
For the most part people who exist in the low income tax bracket do not pay income taxes. They in fact get money back on their income tax returns at the end of the year.


That could be true for persons with dependents, but I prepared the tax return for a young adult for about 3 years whose gross was a little over $6000. Tax was paid.
This has been about four years ago, so I don't know what the poverty level was then. It is currently $9800, much too low.
For seniors- their SS benefits (average $7-900/mo) are tax free. If they choose to work or otherwise have income that exceeds $12,000, then they pay tax on the benefits as well.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2006, 11:29:54 AM »
I did have my babies at home, as stated in our previous discussion.

Re: Infant Mortality
Why does the wealthiest nation on the planet rank 23rd in infant mortality?
"The international standing of the U.S. [in terms of infant mortality rates] did not really begin to fall until the mid-1950s. This correlates perfectly with the founding of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologist (ACOG) in 1951. ACOG is a trade union representing the financial and professional interests of obstetricians who has sought to secure a monopoly in pregnancy and childbirth services. Prior to ACOG, the U.S. always ranked in 10th place or better. Since the mid-1950s the U.S. has consistently ranked below 12th place and hasn't been above 16th place since 1975. The relative standing of the U.S. continues to decline even to the present."
[Stewart, David, "International Infant Mortality Rates--U.S. in 22nd Place." NAPSAC News, Fall-Winter, 1993, pages 36, 38.]


You said: ?Years ago, death rates during childbirth were 1:5.?

Can you cite that? It conflicts with my information.
In 1939, Baylor Hospital Charity Service in Dallas, Texas, published a study that revealed a perinatal mortality rate of 26.6 per 1,000 live births in homes compared to a hospital birth mortality rate of 50.4 per 1,000.

A six-year study done by the Texas Department of Health for the years 1983-1989 revealed that the infant mortality rate for non-nurse midwives attending homebirths was 1.9 per 1,000 compared with the doctors' rate of 5.7 per 1,000.(Texas Lay Midwifery Program, Six Year Report, 1983-1989, Berstein & Bryant, Appendix VIIIf, Texas Department of Health, I 100 West 49th St., Austin, TX 78756-3199.)

Re: Iatrogenic Deaths
What do you think is fair if a doctor prescribes a drug that causes a blood clot? Is the patient told of the risk and asked to sign an informed consent waiver? Was the patient monitored closely enough? There are often safer methods of treatment that carry no risk, but aren't approved by the AMA. That?s unfortunate.

Re: Medical Malpractice Myth
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ice#103119

When discussing tort reform, and particularly medical malpractice reform, it is helpful to know the size of the problem. How much money is paid out each year in medical malpractice judgments and settlements? That would seem to be a basic fact that needs to be established at the beginning of a public policy debate. After all, if we do not know the size of a problem, how can we ever decide on a solution?
The tort reform lobby and the scare tactic media almost never report that basic fact. If you do not believe me, go to Google News or Google and try to find the answer.
In my post, I noted that medical malpractice payments total a little over $4.2 billion per year. As I have previously noted, the total of all sums paid out in medical malpractice settlements and judgments is approximately the same as Estee Lauder?s sales of makeup. The total of payments in 2002 would have paid interest on the national debt for about eight days.
http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/000664.html

Another interesting perspective:
One [insurance] scheme, $1.3 billion in fradulent billings [by doctors].  Just for comparison's sake, the total amount of all medical malpractice judgements and settlements paid in 2003 was $4.2 billion.
http://mithras.blogs.com/blog/2005/03/f ... lawsu.html

Tort Reform:
Studies indicate that only a small fraction of medical mishaps become legal malpractice claims. (2-4%) Although the vast majority of doctors are not sued, a study involving New York doctors indicates that a majority who are sued have had multiple claims. Malpractice awards are brought against physicians, the hospitals, and other medical personnel. The rate of malpractice payments per physician has not appreciably changed  although the rate does significantly vary from state to state. There has been an increase in the average payment  but there has actually been a recent reduction in the cost of malpractice insurance premiums per physician.  
Medical malpractice reform is at the forefront of the "tort reform" agenda of the Bush Administration because it combines the particular dissatisfaction of medical community with the overall concerns of insurers and businesses regarding the costs of the tort system.
Actual stats at the link:
http://www.newsbatch.com/tort.htm

Bush wants medical tort reform to protect the pharm industry and doctors who are following his TMAP agenda- more expensive and risky drugs.
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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2006, 02:17:39 PM »
If you think it's a bad thing that 6 of your friends had C-sections, then why not encourage them to birth at home, as you did?  Are all of their babies healthy?

A few reasons why the mortality rate could be higher with hospital, MD assisted births (versus home births):  hospital deliveries include most of t he high-risk pregnancies, mid-wives will not accept these cases (it's difficult enough for mid-wives to practice in the first place).  Also, there are just more germs in the hospital, and we all have to take that risk when we decide to go into a hospital for whatever reason.

The 1:5 mortality rate because of childbirth was a long time ago, like a couple hundred years ago, this was before we had safe C-sections and antibiotics.  This is what I read in nursing school, and it's pretty much common knowledge.

I am not saying that it is "fair" for a patient to form a blood clot.  Many times, particuarly with newer medications, we are not aware of all of the risks.  Just look at Celebrex.  And that laser eye treatment- the long term effects of it have yet to be seen.  

I do think patients should sign waivers.  Either that, or we just need  serious malpractice lawsuit reforms.

As I have said before, people need to understand that our bodies are not computers, they will not always respond as we would like.      

Additionally, there are risks in everything, including herbal treatments, ect...    Just what "safer methods of treatment that carry no risk" are you talking about?

While I do not know specifically how much cash is paid out every year in malpractice awards, I do know the effects that malpractice suits bring on each and every doctor, healthcare provider, hospital, clinic and practice.  

By the way, do you know the number of lawsuits brought against doctors/hospitals each year?  I don't, but I figure that with the sort of money awarded to the plaintiffs in these cases (such as Celebrex, manufacture ordered to pay $250 million to one person)  we only need one or two cases a year to have the kind of effects on healthcare that I see every day.  

About billing fraud... I know one doctor who was investigated by Blue Cross Blue Sheild for "erroneous" billings.  Yeah, the guy was a greedy jerk.   I went to see him once for a suspected UTI... he wanted to do an abdominal xray (to rule out kidney stones), plus give me iv fluids!  Totally ridiculous.  

As I have said before, if you are a greedy jerk looking to make tons of money, medicine is not the field to go into.  Most doctors know that going in, they don't expect to become super-wealthy, just to have a stable, challening career with a comfortable income.

My boyfriend (who is a doctor) was told that all doctors should expect an average of 2 lawsuits brought against them during their careers.

Most of these lawsuits are frivilous or not legitimate, so as a result, most of these lawsuits are dismissed.  However, these lawsuits can have a profound effect in the psyche of the doctor, shaking their confidence, weakening the trust and relationship between doctor/patient, and driving up malpractice insurance rates.

I do not think that George Bush has honorable intentions in wanting to reform malpratice.  He (and you too, Deborah) understands nothing about the actual practice of medicine.  No offense.  And by the way, if you were to come to my boyfriend's practice, I would advise him not to take you as a patient.
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egan Flynn
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2006, 03:55:37 PM »
My argument was that C Sections are not performed only in emergencies, as you implied; but for other reasons, including- to avoid malpractice suits, which you stated. I?m still trying to understand how a surgery is less risky than a vaginal birth.
In testimony before the U.S. Commission to Prevent Infant Mortality, Marsden Wagner MD, European Director of the WHO, suggested the need in the U.S. for a "strong independent midwifery profession as a counterbalance to the obstetrical profession in preventing excessive interventions in the normal birth process."
'Mothering Magazine has calculated that using midwifery care for 75% of the births in the U.S. would save an estimated $8.5 billion per year." (Madrona, Lewis & Morgaine, The Future of Midwifery in the United States, NAPSAC News, Fall-Winter, 1993, p. 15 November 23, 1996 issue of the British Medical Journal.)

***A few reasons why the mortality rate could be higher with hospital, MD assisted births (versus home births): hospital deliveries include most of t he high-risk pregnancies, mid-wives will not accept these cases (it's difficult enough for mid-wives to practice in the first place). Also, there are just more germs in the hospital, and we all have to take that risk when we decide to go into a hospital for whatever reason.***

?Could be??. but isn?t:
"Every study that has compared midwives and obstetricians has found better outcomes for midwives for same-risk patients. In some studies, midwives actually served higher risk populations than the physicians and still obtained lower mortalities and morbidities. The superiority and safety of midwifery for most women no longer needs to be proven. It has been well established." (Madrona, Lewis & Morgaine, The Future of Midwifery in the United States, NAPSAC News, Fall-Winter, 1993, p.30)
Further:
three times greater likelihood of cesarean operation if a woman gave birth in a hospital instead of at home with the hospital standing by. The hospital population revealed twenty times more use of forceps, twice as much use of oxytocin to accelerate or induce labor, greater incidence of episiotomy (while at the same time having more severe tears in need of major repair). The hospital group showed six times more infant distress in labor, five times more cases of maternal high blood pressure, and three times greater incidence of postpartum hemorrhage. There was four times more infection among the newborn; three times more babies that needed help to begin breathing. While the hospital group had thirty cases of birth injuries, including skull fractures, facial nerve palsies, brachial nerve injuries and severe cephalohematomas, there were no such injuries at home.  [Dr. Lewis Mehl, "Home Birth Versus Hospital Birth: Comparisons of Outcomes of Matched Populations." Presented on October 20, 1976 before the 104th annual meeting of the American Public Health Association. For further information contact the Institute for Childbirth and Family Research, 2522 Dana St., Suite 201, Berkeley, CA 94704]

***The 1:5 mortality rate because of childbirth was a long time ago, like a couple hundred years ago, this was before we had safe C-sections and antibiotics. This is what I read in nursing school, and it's pretty much common knowledge.***

Yes, I knew the 1:5 rate was a couple of centuries ago. I?d say a little more than a ?few? years ago, as you first stated. ?A few? sounds like 30, 40, 50. And if you know that, you also know that the primary reasons for lower mortality rates has to do with better sanitation (sewer installations), more food- better nutrition, clean water, etc? thanks to the ?Progressives?.

***Additionally, there are risks in everything, including herbal treatments, ect... Just what "safer methods of treatment that carry no risk" are you talking about?***

Answered that in an earlier post. I guess you didn?t read it.

***While I do not know specifically how much cash is paid out every year in malpractice awards, I do know the effects that malpractice suits bring on each and every doctor, healthcare provider, hospital, clinic and practice.***

You?d know if you?d read the link I provided. Are you engaged in the discussion or simply compelled to defend your boyfriend?s profession?
 
***By the way, do you know the number of lawsuits brought against doctors/hospitals each year? I don't***

You would if you had read my link.

***, but I figure that with the sort of money awarded to the plaintiffs in these cases (such as Celebrex, manufacture ordered to pay $250 million to one person) we only need one or two cases a year to have the kind of effects on healthcare that I see every day.***

I think you mean Vioxx?  Cry me a river. When you conceal research findings that show risk of death, you probably should give some of the billions you earned back to the victims. But that?s just me. How bout those poor fuckers who went blind taking Viagra? Were they informed? Deserve any compensation?

***However, these lawsuits can have a profound effect in the psyche of the doctor, shaking their confidence, weakening the trust and relationship between doctor/patient, and driving up malpractice insurance rates.***

Rates have gone down. Malpractice suits are actually low. 2-4%. You?d know that if you read the links I provided. Perhaps medical students should consider the high risk involved with the profession before they invest in an education. I think it has more to do with the inadequateness of western medical training. They should consider being trained in ?Integrative? medicine so they have some safer options and aren?t so inclined toward unnecessary invasive procedures and risky drugs, except in crisis.
http://www.integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/
http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/page/wei1bio-1

You're right, Shrub isn't a doctor... but he sure knows how to protect the profits of daddy's cronnies at the Drug Houses.
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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2006, 06:07:14 PM »
I don't feel like reading every single link.  

So either you see a Western doctor, or you don't.  Plan to have your baby at home/birthing center, or plan to have it in a hospital.  Assume the risks associated with taking drugs, or don't take them.  Use some of your other treatments, which you think "post no risk".  Seriously, could you elaborate on these treatments of which you speak?    Go ahead.  

Leave Western doctors alone.  They work hard and with the best intentions.  

I'm not just defending my boyfriend's work.  I say these things because I am a nurse, and I see it first hand.  

So if you think hospitals are so bad, stay out of them.  

If you want to know how a surgery is less risky than a vaginal birth, well, I assure you, most of the time it is.  I do have one friend who developed a nasty infection after a C-section, which I believe she got from maybe a contaminated OR.  I do see more than one side of this, Deborah.  

But her baby's heart rate was decelerating (a symptom of distress or low oxygen, and a common indication for C-section).  It only takes minutes for an oxygen-deprived baby (or person) to suffer brain damage.  Better safe than sorry.  My friend may have had to deal with this infection, but her baby is healthy.  


So if you want to birth your children at home, the choice is yours.  But in the hospital setting, the doctors and nurses are not going to take those kinds of risks.
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egan Flynn
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2006, 07:34:51 PM »
***If you want to know how a surgery is less risky than a vaginal birth, well, I assure you, most of the time it is.***

I don't want your assurance. I want you to cite data to support your comments. Your opinion conflicts with the research I've posted today.
"According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, nearly 28 percent of American women gave birth by cesarean delivery in 2003, up from 6 percent in 1970, 17 percent in 1980, and 23 percent in 1990. A c-section is major abdominal surgery, so it is riskier than a vaginal delivery. Moms who have c-sections are more likely to have an infection, excessive bleeding, blood clots, injuries to the bladder or bowel (though these are very rare), more postpartum pain, and a longer hospital stay. Plus, if you plan to have more children, each c-section you have increases your risk in future pregnancies of placenta previa and placenta accreta."

That's a lot of risk for moms and babies so docs "can avoid malpractice suits". I still can not figure how they think it lowers the possibility of a lawsuit. It's more invasive, with much higher risks of complications/death.

***But her baby's heart rate was decelerating (a symptom of distress or low oxygen, and a common indication for C-section).***

I was curious what might cause so many cases of decelerating heart rate that result in C Section. As I expected, intervention.

What are the disadvantages of EFM?
For baby: The mother?s immobility, and likelihood to remain on her back or semi-sitting, may decrease oxygen flow to the baby, creating the very problems EFM is monitoring for.
For parents: Unable to move around and limited choices of positions to ease labor pain and help labor progress. The noise from the monitor can be disturbing, though usually volume can be adjusted.
De-humanizing: Some mothers report that after the monitor is placed, caregivers and support people pay more attention to the readouts than to the mother herself. Lack of understanding of normal variations in heart beat can cause unwarranted anxiety in parents attempting to evaluate the results.
Most significant risk is unnecessary c-sections, due to potential for over-diagnosis of fetal distress in a healthy baby. There is a 1.3 to 2.7-fold increased likelihood of cesarean section with continuous EFM. The likelihood of c-section due to fetal distress diagnosis specifically is 2.0 ? 4.1-fold increase. The chance of operative delivery (including c-section, vacuum extractor, and forceps) is increased by about 30% with EFM.

Internal monitoring- Advantages: Similar to external monitor, but internal offers increased accuracy of readings.  Disadvantages: Similar to external monitor, plus risk of infection from AROM, fetal infection from implantation of the electrode.

And what about that Morphine and Demerol. I'm sure they have a decelerating effect on fetal heart rate. How about that, they do.
"Parenteral pain medications for labor pain decrease fetal heart rate variability and may limit the obstetrician-gynecologist's ability to interpret the fetal heart rate tracing. Consideration should be given to other drugs in the setting of diminished short- or long-term fetal heart rate variability."

"Changes in fetal heart rate have been reported to be extremely common during conventional epidural analgesia14, 15,16."

***So if you want to birth your children at home, the choice is yours. But in the hospital setting, the doctors and nurses are not going to take those kinds of risks.***

I've not seen anything to substantiate that hospital births are less risky, but plenty to indicate the opposite. The data doesn't support your opinion, or training, whichever.

Gosh, do woman deserve to be informed? What if their doctor was required to inform them that births with midwives result in 1.9 deaths per 1,000 compared with the doctors' rate of 5.7 per 1,000 (7.8 now). Would that be fair?
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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2006, 08:46:47 PM »
The fact is that midwives in this country do not take high-risk cases.  Call some and ask.    

I would also propose that many women who seek out a midwife and a natural birth also may be more health-conscious and take better care of themselves than the many women who seek free obstetrics care at one of the many clinics (which obstetricians kindly lend their time and practice to, with little or no financial compensation).

I am not going to spend time researching statistics to prove a point to someone who appears to be a fanatical nutcase.  

Midwives are great, sure, for women with low-risk pregnancies who don't mind long labors with lots of pain.  

Anyway, here is some information from my Maternal-Newborn textbook from nursing school :

*indications for c-section include-  herpes infection, nonreassuring fetal heart rate patterns, prolapsed cord, breech or transverse position, hypertension, and feto-pelvic disproportion.  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every woman must decide for herself what risks she is and is not willing to take.  

If there is concern that the baby is not getting enough oxygen or is not going to fit through the birth canal (both of these things happen naturally, don't try to pin them on medical interventions, they have been happening forever), then most women would err on the side of "better safe than sorry".  

That is, those women who believe that having a healthy baby is more important than fulfilling her own ego by proving to that she can push that baby out herself.
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egan Flynn
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2006, 10:11:25 PM »
Oh, I see. So birthing a baby the way nature intended is now considered an EGO trip?
Gotcha. Where is this culture headed?
Obstetricians and medical intervention are about as necessary as RTCs- once in a great while. They cause problems that require further treatment /intervention.

*indications for c-section include- herpes infection, nonreassuring fetal heart rate patterns, prolapsed cord, breech or transverse position, hypertension, and feto-pelvic disproportion.

They forgot, doctor convenience, doctor incompetence, fear of malpractice suits, decelerating heart rate due to medical interventions.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #73 on: July 20, 2006, 12:01:43 AM »
Wow I stoped caring about this a long time ago.
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our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #74 on: July 20, 2006, 12:12:23 AM »
Believe it or not, the universe does not revolve around you.
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