Author Topic: I don't get it.  (Read 4457 times)

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Offline MightyAardvark

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I don't get it.
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2006, 08:15:00 PM »
that's something worth exploring. mightyaardvark is my login if you have yahoo messenger
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
see the children with their boredom and their vacant stares. God help us all if we\'re to blame for their unanswered prayers,

Billy Joel.

Offline Anne Bonney

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I don't get it.
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2006, 08:21:00 PM »
My computer's down and I'm using hubby's.  He doesn't do the IM thing.  PM me if you'd like.  

There is one difference I can think of right off the bat.  The rape didn't fuck with my head and my soul near as much as the BM facility.  At least with the rape I knew what happened to me wasn't my fault.  For years after getting out I thought I pretty much deserved whatever I got in there and then had to suffer after, and that was quite a bit.  But the whole control aspect of it is identical.  Rapists are about control.  These places cannot fuction without the dangerous kind of control over a kid.  That wouldn't enable them to bring about the miraculous changes they claim to produce.  The places do work.  They modify kids' behavior alright, but at what price?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline AtomicAnt

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I don't get it.
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2006, 09:08:00 PM »
Quote
Your assumption that programs "take a healthy human being, destroy his/her personality and rebuild him from the ground up" is one you seem particularly attached to, so I guess I won't waste the energy trying to convince you that it doesn't apply to many programs, with the possible exception of truly military style boot-camps--and most of those are licensed or run by the state. But you might consider looking more closely at the patterns and practices of private programs.


I don't know about the 'healthy human being' part, but it is not important really. The issue is that the behavior changes are forced onto an unwilling victim. That is the basic, and unethical, part of any of these programs that take kids against their will and hold them against their will.

The very basis of a free, democratic society, is the individual's right to choose. Giving people freedom of choice means taking the risk that some of them will choose to go against the rules. They may suffer the consequences of these decisions, but it is still their choice. If society chooses to intervene in the behavior, it does so as a democratic society.

The basic premise of these programs is that the parents have a right to take all choice away from their teenaged child and 'fix' them with forced psychological behavior modification whether or not the child agrees there is even a problem. The teens are denied their right to choose based solely upon their age, not their competency or level of development. Those who make this decision (the parents) are not required to have any expertise or qualifications for making this decision. There are no checks or balances protecting the teenagers' rights or best interests. The parents are not held accountable to any set of standards or rules regarding this decision.

Programs operate in the same way. There are no standards or rules to which they are held accountable. There are no checks or balances to ensure that their methods are safe or humane. There is no recourse for the imprisoned teenager who must endure the 'treatment' whether or not it is warranted or has any merit or whether or not the teenagers' own identity and core values are aligned with it.

The mind set that supports programs has a theological basis. People who adhere to theological ideologies will hold to their beliefs in spite of the lessons of history, reason, science, and logic. They rationalize, dismiss, attack (verbally and sometimes physically) those that oppose their ideas because these ideologies cannot stand on their own merit.

Those of us who are free thinkers actually have the more difficult task of having to justify what we believe in.

Programs tell their young victims what to believe in and force compliance. Such tactics have no place in a free thinking democracy.

As someone already wrote, both neo conservatives and liberals jump on this bandwagon. The neo conservatives don't mind forcing adherence to their religious based ideology. The liberals tend toward the nanny state which must interfere with liberty to protect us from ourselves. Both are enemies of free will and free thinking.

Discussions of efficacy, available alternatives, abuse, etc are secondary to the inherent violation of a persons' ability to think for themselves and make decisions for themselves, express themselves freely, and choose their own path in life.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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I don't get it.
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2006, 09:18:00 PM »
:nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

Ant, ya took the words I was trying to find right outta my mouth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Oz girl

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I don't get it.
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2006, 11:45:00 PM »
I largely agree with Aardvark (who are you barracking for btw)
It seems that the thing used to sell lots of programmes is that the kid came back " a whole new person" This does seem rather sinister at the very least to me.

The other thing that disturbs me is that many schools often have group therapy component but with kids. The whole point of group therapy as an adult is that you are choosing to go and ultimately choosing what to disclose. Even alcoholics anon lets people just go to meetings and say nothing if they so desire. The thought of forcing kids to confess private things to or infront of their peers is bizarre and morally reprihensible. Particularly if it is becasue they may 'manupulate" a therapist. This indicates to be that eiterh the kid is not mentally ill therefore does not need "therapy" or they are smarter than the quack that they were sent to in the first place!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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I don't get it.
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2006, 12:05:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-06 20:45:00, Pls help wrote:

"I largely agree with Aardvark (who are you barracking for btw)

It seems that the thing used to sell lots of programmes is that the kid came back " a whole new person" This does seem rather sinister at the very least to me.



The other thing that disturbs me is that many schools often have group therapy component but with kids. The whole point of group therapy as an adult is that you are choosing to go and ultimately choosing what to disclose. Even alcoholics anon lets people just go to meetings and say nothing if they so desire. The thought of forcing kids to confess private things to or infront of their peers is bizarre and morally reprihensible. Particularly if it is becasue they may 'manupulate" a therapist. This indicates to be that eiterh the kid is not mentally ill therefore does not need "therapy" or they are smarter than the quack that they were sent to in the first place!"



Your ignorance shows again in this matter. Most of the time these so called group therapy sessions are conducted by entry level staff who used to work at Burger King.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

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I don't get it.
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2006, 06:30:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-07-06 21:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-07-06 20:45:00, Pls help wrote:


"I largely agree with Aardvark (who are you barracking for btw)


It seems that the thing used to sell lots of programmes is that the kid came back " a whole new person" This does seem rather sinister at the very least to me.





The other thing that disturbs me is that many schools often have group therapy component but with kids. The whole point of group therapy as an adult is that you are choosing to go and ultimately choosing what to disclose. Even alcoholics anon lets people just go to meetings and say nothing if they so desire. The thought of forcing kids to confess private things to or infront of their peers is bizarre and morally reprihensible. Particularly if it is becasue they may 'manupulate" a therapist. This indicates to be that eiterh the kid is not mentally ill therefore does not need "therapy" or they are smarter than the quack that they were sent to in the first place!"






Your ignorance shows again in this matter. Most of the time these so called group therapy sessions are conducted by entry level staff who used to work at Burger King. "


I dont know if what i was trying to say was made clear there. I was reffering to the article in the previous post which once again mentioned that group therapy in behavour modification schools is good for kids who "manipulate" traditional one on one therapists. I was suggesting that for many kids " therapy" was not the answer because they are not in need of fixing! I was agreeing that "modifying" a persons behaviour & personality is as a princiapl highly immoral! I was suggesting that it is not ok to to force people to disclose things to a group & the difference between legitimate group therapy & whatever it is these kids are forced to do is choice. I do not believe that anywhere in that post did I say that the forced disclosures that these kids are put through are done by professionals.
If you want to accuse someone of being ignorant then take the bag off your head and have it out with them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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I don't get it.
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2006, 09:34:00 AM »
***Your premise seems to be that generally, kids are doing fine. The numbers say otherwise. Look at suicide rates and studies on isolation (adults and kids): there is cause for alarm.

Precisely the fear mongering that politicians and programs use to sway terrified parents and further their personal agendas. Where did you read this? Which program told you this? Come on anon. Cite your sources. Be 'responsible and accountable' for what spews from your mouth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline MightyAardvark

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I don't get it.
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2006, 10:36:00 AM »
Excuse me, suicide rates amonst juveniles have been dropping since 1995, crime rates have been dropping since 1994 and juveniles account for only a fraction of drug related hospital admissions.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/contents.htm

Still we are getting diverted from the core point. Even if teenagers were drug addicted, suicide prone hellions it would still be wrong to treat them like this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
see the children with their boredom and their vacant stares. God help us all if we\'re to blame for their unanswered prayers,

Billy Joel.

Offline Oz girl

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I don't get it.
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2006, 10:54:00 AM »
I have also wondered whether "forced disclosure" makes kids more suceptable to being preyed upon by potenitially perverted adults. It seems like forcing a kid to tell stories about their sexuality is a "safe" way for a pedophile to get some kind of perverse pleasure. "i didnt lay a finger on the kids, i just made them give me a few fantasies" The whole thing seems quite unhealthy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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I don't get it.
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2006, 09:07:00 PM »
A recent large study (at least 1000, iirc) that applied the diagnostic criteria for bipolar disorder to every participant found it occurs in 4% of the population.

That means it occurs twice as often as it's being diagnosed.

It's one of the disorders with the highest risk of suicide.

Suicide rates for bipolars are cut almost in half with treatment.  That's proper, competent psychiatric treatment for the medical problem bipolar is, not quack "treatment" from the Programs.

If you want to heavily shrink adolescent suicide rates, find and treat these bipolar kids.

If you want to shrink those rates even more, increase funding for research into bipolar disorder with the goal of developing better treatments that further reduce the suicide rates for treated patients.

Bipolar disorder is highly heritable.  More people with bipolar disorder are surviving long enough to have children.  Therefore more people are being born with the genes that put them at risk for bipolar disorder.

That's not societal.  That's not cultural.  That's not anything a Program could remotely fix even if it worked.  It's biological.

If we identify the factors that trigger it in susceptible people, maybe we can block the trigger from activating.  If we identify the genes, maybe we can come up with gene therapies to protect the people who have it from getting sick--or to arrest the disease's progress and prevent further damage.

Improvements to teen suicide rates will come from medicine.

Program owner/operators are ignorant quacks running a scam to separate gullible parents from junior's college fund.  Nothing they do will ever help anybody.

Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

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I don't get it.
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2006, 12:22:00 AM »
is bipolar the same as clinical or manic depression?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline MightyAardvark

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I don't get it.
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2006, 02:35:00 AM »
Manic depression is a pretty apt description of bipolar disorder. Clinical Depression is a different beast altogether, still not one that can be addresed using behavioural theories.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
see the children with their boredom and their vacant stares. God help us all if we\'re to blame for their unanswered prayers,

Billy Joel.

Offline Anonymous

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I don't get it.
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2006, 06:08:00 AM »
If you consider fearful compliance and bizarre, trained reactions to be healthy, that is.
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Offline MightyAardvark

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I don't get it.
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2006, 06:40:00 AM »
The hardest thing for me is accepting that there is nothing I can do to protect these kids. The best we can hope for is justice after the fact which is rather less satisfying. Justice doesn't get you your childhood back.

Apropos of nothing, It just felt relevant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
see the children with their boredom and their vacant stares. God help us all if we\'re to blame for their unanswered prayers,

Billy Joel.