The Who

[psy]

Psy Wrote:

Schools exist for the benefit of the customers, and customers have a right to demand accountability and oversight. They shouldn't have to ultimately... that's what state regulation is supposed to be for: so there is some authority making sure the kids aren't being abused, and their human rights are being respected.

Exactly, The customer is the parent, the product is the child.  The schools will respond primarily/initially to the needs of the parent not the child, although there is an assumption (made by the parents) that the child is protected from being abused and having their rights violated.  If the parents are not educated or know enough about the industry to understand what is needed for their child or they are being taken advantage of by the industry the state should be there, step in and advocate for that child.  There should be something in place to protect the child?s rights and insure no abuse is taking place.  As a minimum standard this should be true in any state.

i resent being called a "product".... but ... oh well.. you're just insensitive.

Well there isn't anything in place to protect child's rights at the moment.  There is no minimum standard.  The kids have no methods of reporting abuse/fraud while in program and it is not required.  So yes.  There should be something in place but there isn't.  And while that is the case, no EG schools (or unlicenced programs in general) are safe.  Like slavitz says... russian roulette.

[Anonymous]

The only one who is making sense is The Who. Period. End of story. Throw in the towel guys, you're losing.

Oh look Cindy you finally got someone dumb enough to buy into your nonsense. Congradulations!    

   :rofl:  :lol:  :rofl:

CongraTulations dumb ass.

[Anonymous]

Well there isn't anything in place to protect child's rights at the moment.  

Don't you fret young man. Kev and CCMGirl at hard at work developing a strategy that will save all the kids!!!!

[TheWho]

Sorry for the slight

[psy]

Well there isn't anything in place to protect child's rights at the moment.  

Don't you fret young man. Kev and CCMGirl at hard at work developing a strategy that will save all the kids!!!!

Kind of like a "final solution"?

[Anonymous]

The only one who is making sense is The Who. Period. End of story. Throw in the towel guys, you're losing.

Oh look Cindy you finally got someone dumb enough to buy into your nonsense. Congradulations!    

   :rofl:  :lol:  :rofl:

CongraTulations dumb ass.

You'll do better next year, don't be bitter.

[psy]

Sorry for the slight

no problem.  It just illustrates a point that many people often make on Fornits though... The kid is not a "product"  he/she is a living, breathing, sentient organism who can make choices for him/herself (that's how we learn consequences... touch hot stove.. get burned.. etc).  What say does the kid have in a placement?  Has he/she no rights at all?  It seems many parents want a result... unsatisfied with the choices his/her child has made of his/her own free will.  Is this an unreasonable amount of control?  In many cases yes.

Of course you could argue drugs bla bla bla... on his way to shooting heroin...  Well.  You could convince him/her that he/she needs help.  Try talking to his/her other friends... maybe relatives.  Express concern.  30 day treatment centres... as i've said.. usually have good results... and prepares them for the real world as well.

How long does a coerced change last?  Sure the parent gets a nice temporary result in a controlled(you have no idea) enviornment...  but once the kid gets out... what happens?  often:  Boom!  and it's back to the TBS again.

[TheWho]

Sorry for the slight

no problem.  It just illustrates a point that many people often make on Fornits though... The kid is not a "product"  he/she is a living, breathing, sentient organism who can make choices for him/herself (that's how we learn consequences... touch hot stove.. get burned.. etc).  What say does the kid have in a placement?  Has he/she no rights at all?  It seems many parents want a result... unsatisfied with the choices his/her child has made of his/her own free will.  Is this an unreasonable amount of control?  In many cases yes.

Of course you could argue drugs bla bla bla... on his way to shooting heroin...  Well.  You could convince him/her that he/she needs help.  Try talking to his/her other friends... maybe relatives.  Express concern.  30 day treatment centres... as i've said.. usually have good results... and prepares them for the real world as well.

How long does a coerced change last?  Sure the parent gets a nice temporary result in a controlled(you have no idea) enviornment...  but once the kid gets out... what happens?  often:  Boom!  and it's back to the TBS again.

I see your point, my daughter went Boom!! When she got home and I tried not to panic, although I did inside, and gave her a ton of space because she and I were able to talked things thru each night or when needed and she convinced me she was fine.  She finally decided on her own to do something different than what she was doing and the open communication, being able to express herself and her feelings, which she learned at ASR really helped and she eventually chose a better path for herself and she is doing great.  I am not the type to flip out over some pot, piercings, type of dress etc.  ASR just worked for her and helped her figure things out.

[Anonymous]

ASR just worked for her and forced her figure things out.

[Programmie-Trans 9000]

I miss your point again, my daughter went Boom!! (although obviously not enough, as I'm still alive) When she got home and I threw a huge hissy fit inside and out, and threatened to send her back on multiple occasions and she finally realized that she'd need to feed me almost as much bullshit as she fed the program. But the program had destroyed her sense of self, boundaries, etc for her to relate to her old friends anymore, not to mention the lack of open communication. Basically, ASR really destroyed her soul to the point that she couldn't function in society anymore, thus she still hates me and still won't talk to me. I fucking flipped out over some pot, piercings, type of dress etc- why do you think I sent her to that abusive shitpit in the first place? ASR fucking ruined my daughter and now I want to spread the pain.

[Anonymous]

Dayum! Howd I miss tha t the first rounod through this therad!!???

[psy]

Sorry for the slight

no problem.  It just illustrates a point that many people often make on Fornits though... The kid is not a "product"  he/she is a living, breathing, sentient organism who can make choices for him/herself (that's how we learn consequences... touch hot stove.. get burned.. etc).  What say does the kid have in a placement?  Has he/she no rights at all?  It seems many parents want a result... unsatisfied with the choices his/her child has made of his/her own free will.  Is this an unreasonable amount of control?  In many cases yes.

Of course you could argue drugs bla bla bla... on his way to shooting heroin...  Well.  You could convince him/her that he/she needs help.  Try talking to his/her other friends... maybe relatives.  Express concern.  30 day treatment centres... as i've said.. usually have good results... and prepares them for the real world as well.

How long does a coerced change last?  Sure the parent gets a nice temporary result in a controlled(you have no idea) enviornment...  but once the kid gets out... what happens?  often:  Boom!  and it's back to the TBS again.

I see your point, my daughter went Boom!! When she got home and I tried not to panic, although I did inside, and gave her a ton of space because she and I were able to talked things thru each night or when needed and she convinced me she was fine.  She finally decided on her own to do something different than what she was doing and the open communication, being able to express herself and her feelings, which she learned at ASR

Trained behavior is not "learned" behavior.  She was forced to be "open" at ASR.  The fact that she was able to figure out things on her own speaks volumes.

You were trained too... at parent workshops.  You simply do not realize it.  Emotion overwhelmed you and they used that weakness to drive a point home.  Emotion is not bad mind you...  It simply can be used to manipulate.  I would suggest you think about what was said in those workshops and see if they line up with reality.  what real insight could they offer you.. it was a clever, scripted scam.  Of course you don't believe me.    Of course if i'm right...  you would still not believe me.

Personally.  I doubt she tells you what she truly feels anymore.  I never have since my parents sent me to program.  I don't trust them enough.  of course.. after program.. and the "masks" (of herself) she threw away... i wonder if she feels much at all anymore.  Sad price to pay for good behavior.

really helped and she eventually chose a better path for herself and she is doing great.  I am not the type to flip out over some pot, piercings, type of dress etc.  ASR just worked for her and helped her figure things out.

And i'm sure she believes that too.  It takes a while for the kool-aid to wear off.  Kool-aid half-life is different from person to person.

Do yourself a favor... ask her exactly... and have her quantify:  What skills did she learn?  I can almost guarantee... she will not be able to answer that question... why?  Because the only thing she learned, is to say "i learned valuble life skills... etc."

[psy]

When i compare the program to a cult... people often argue: "well ... where is the undying loyalty to the leader"....  Where is the leader?  The program is the "leader", the "saviour"... the one without you would be nothing... the one who saved your life... who gave me the skills to survive....  

But it is all hollow rhetoric....  ask for an explanation and ... "well there's nothign in the (very simple shell) script for that"

Which is  why... if you wish to disprove me... and more importantly... prove to yourself that you are right... ask your daughter what i suggested in my last post.

[teachback]

CCM Girl is being a troll, plain and simple.

She doesn't mean a word of what she says; she just wants to see how much of a reaction she can get.

[Troll Control]

Sorry for the slight

no problem.  It just illustrates a point that many people often make on Fornits though... The kid is not a "product"  he/she is a living, breathing, sentient organism who can make choices for him/herself (that's how we learn consequences... touch hot stove.. get burned.. etc).  What say does the kid have in a placement?  Has he/she no rights at all?  It seems many parents want a result... unsatisfied with the choices his/her child has made of his/her own free will.  Is this an unreasonable amount of control?  In many cases yes.

Of course you could argue drugs bla bla bla... on his way to shooting heroin...  Well.  You could convince him/her that he/she needs help.  Try talking to his/her other friends... maybe relatives.  Express concern.  30 day treatment centres... as i've said.. usually have good results... and prepares them for the real world as well.

How long does a coerced change last?  Sure the parent gets a nice temporary result in a controlled(you have no idea) enviornment...  but once the kid gets out... what happens?  often:  Boom!  and it's back to the TBS again.

I see your point, my daughter went Boom!! When she got home and I tried not to panic, although I did inside, and gave her a ton of space because she and I were able to talked things thru each night or when needed and she convinced me she was fine.  She finally decided on her own to do something different than what she was doing and the open communication, being able to express herself and her feelings, which she learned at ASR really helped and she eventually chose a better path for herself and she is doing great.  I am not the type to flip out over some pot, piercings, type of dress etc.  ASR just worked for her and helped her figure things out.

I have been making this point repeatedly for years, but let me make it again for clarity's sake:

Behavior modification produces behaviors in the subject to which it rigidly adheres in the test environment, however, these conditioned responses are not generalized into other environments.  That is, BM produces behaviors in the subject that are environment specific.

This is the reason why all of these programs fail to produce any lasting results outside the treatment center.  This is not new information and has been axiomatic since the dawn of behavior research.

TheWho is a living example of this.  His daughter imploded upon release because, in effect, she learned nothing that applies to objective reality.  After two years and some natural maturation that was forcibly delayed by her placement her life took on some meaning and she became autonomous (read "deconditioned" from her programming at ASR).

It's really that simple.  These programs have not, can not and will not work - ever - because of the flawed, discredited, abandoned concepts upon which they are based.