Challenge for Wilderness Supporters

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:


u really dont get it

maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea"

Oh I get it all too well sweetie. :roll: You bet your ass it's one of the main objectives.  They'll never say that but the idea is to take out of control Johnny and turn him into a tame child creature (all hail Zappa).  You gotta break 'em to do that.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 17:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 17:47:00, TheWho wrote:



Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road."

What the hell is that supposed to mean? "

High road,  Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the  kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets)  if things don?t work out at home.  Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 18:09:00, TheWho wrote:


High road,  Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the  kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets)  if things don?t work out at home.  Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?."

Oh, I see now.  You were being a condescending prick. OK.  Just wanted to clear that up.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 18:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 18:09:00, TheWho wrote:



High road,  Fight the underdogs battle, stand up for the  kids and ensure they have options and places to go (other than the streets)  if things don?t work out at home.  Improve upon what we have?..move forward, do good ?..what?s morally right ?."

Oh, I see now.  You were being a condescending prick. OK.  Just wanted to clear that up."

Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 18:42:00, TheWho wrote:


Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?"

I haven't been that way at all in the past two days that I've been posting here.  Other anons may have, but I didn't.  I've watched your passive-agressive comments all over the place and still maintained my civility.  You're high road comment put my tolerance for bullshit over the edge.

[Deborah]

u really dont get it
maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea.

I think it's the foundation of the program. If the program didn't establish that they were the ultimate authority (boss) kids would be walking out by the droves. Without that foundation, there wouldn't be a program. It's fundamental.

In order to do that they limit contact with the parents. Tell the kid that their parents support the wacked shit they are doing. Call the parent and work out any concerns ahead of time so they have the parent's unwavering support on the next monitored call. Parent is warned to expect 'outrageous' stories.
Kid trys to talk about what's really happening and they call "manipulation". The call is ended if the kid doesn't change the subject.
They pit parent against child, for months before any real contact is reestablished.
The kid is being conditioned not to report anything negative, and the parent is being schooled on the program definition of manipulation and the importance of narcing on their kid. Everytime the parent narcs, it is further reinforced that the program is the ultimate authority over the kid.

It really is a very clever and effective method of establishing authority- who's boss- but nothing new or unique.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 19:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 18:42:00, TheWho wrote:



Why, is it only okay for you to be that way?"

I haven't been that way at all in the past two days that I've been posting here.  Other anons may have, but I didn't.  I've watched your passive-agressive comments all over the place and still maintained my civility.  You're high road comment put my tolerance for bullshit over the edge."

Your continuous narrow view that all schools are alike and the best any kid could ever do is survive, put my tolerance for bs over the top.   You have blinders on, you cant even see how arrogant your own posts are.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 19:36:00, TheWho wrote:


Your continuous narrow view that all schools are alike and the best any kid could ever do is survive, put my tolerance for bs over the top.   You have blinders on, you cant even see how arrogant your own posts are."

I have no blinders on.  I can look at this from both perspectives.  Can you?  No.  You were never subjected to the kinds of things that myself and these kids have and continue to be.  You couldn't possibly begin to fathom what we're talking about.

[Anonymous]

And I must have hit a nerve with you somewhere cause you usually don't let people get under your skin. ::nod::  :lol:

[Oz girl]

I understand that people were hurt in the past (12 years ago) and there is nothing funny about it and you see it as my word against many, but it is clearly not the case.

But that is the thing. Kids are still claiming that they are being hurt today! It does not seem to me that much has changed since Michelle Sutton and Aaron Bacon died! Every few months a kid in some facility seems to be dying. It is just NOT good enough to say that the kid was difficult or that it was a horrible acident when it is so frequent. It does not seem that there has been a change to the culture. A kid says they are unwell and they do not go to a medical professional who can make an independent diognisis, but get into trouble for lying. Many expensive reputable programmes talk openly of addressing "manipulation" without even defining what that is!

 Aside from the deaths there seems to be a myriad of unhappy customers! Most of these are kids who are meant to have a geat time & come back fixed. There also seems to be a pretty devil may care attitude to the kids complaints!

As to those at the top. There is probably not conspiracy to torture kids, it is more that they dont give a shit. As long as the cash keeps rolling in! If this means employing someone with no experience of kids who is willing to work for bubkis then so be it. If it means feding kids cheap crap food to save a back they will do it!
If it means inventing some kooky levels system so that a kid can misbehave their way into a few more months "treatment" or better still recommending that the kid go from wildreness therapy straight to their gulag scool then all the better!

lets not forget Michelle Sutton wanted to go to a Wilderness camp. As soon as she realised that it was her worst nightmare she asked to call her mum and go home! At least part of the reason why she could not was that it would cost them the 15k her mum shelled out!

You say that was 15 years ago but which camp today lets a kid call home & tell mum that it is their worst night mare without accusing them of "manipulation"?

From where i sit as an accountant it would be a rare programme that does, because there is too much cash to be lost! perhaps the business end of these places does not torture kids for fun but if it happens along the way to a profit i dont see any of them exactly shedding any tears!

[Troll Control]

The Who wrote:

"Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools..."

We have seen the "fruits" from these programs - that's why this site and so many other survivor and watchdog sites exist, Who.  Don't you get it?

The fruit of misbegotten conception is rotten, plain and simple.  Some of the "fruits" include PTSD, feelings of inadequacy, dependence, depression, social difficulties, continuing or worsening psychological pathology and suicide.  We already know the results, Who.  We don't agree with you based on relative merit not inexperience or lack of awareness.

Due to the fact that you are one of least experienced, least educated and least aware people on this board, your commentary on these issues comes across as the arrogance of dismissal of the viewpoints of those who know better than what you're pitching.  

This is why people get frustrated with your dogmatism.  You continually tell people not to believe their eyes, ears and personal history, but to believe your uneducated, inexperienced opinion based on anecdotes from a support group for program parents.  Let's face facts, the only programs you know anything at all about are SUWS and ASR and what you know about how they administer their treatment is based solely on anecdotal missives of your child and some other program parents.  

Stop trying to tell people who have direct experience with the industry how it is because your responses are the widely-known, widely-employed talking points of the programs and anyone who has direct experience already knows that they bear little resemblence to reality.

[Troll Control]

As to those at the top. There is probably not conspiracy to torture kids, it is more that they dont give a shit. As long as the cash keeps rolling in! If this means employing someone with no experience of kids who is willing to work for bubkis then so be it. If it means feding kids cheap crap food to save a back they will do it!
If it means inventing some kooky levels system so that a kid can misbehave their way into a few more months "treatment" or better still recommending that the kid go from wildreness therapy straight to their gulag scool then all the better!

Spot on.  Dead on the money.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-21 05:27:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

The Who wrote:



"Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools..."

We have seen the "fruits" from these programs - that's why this site and so many other survivor and watchdog sites exist, Who.  Don't you get it?



The fruit of misbegotten conception is rotten, plain and simple.  Some of the "fruits" include PTSD, feelings of inadequacy, dependence, depression, social difficulties, continuing or worsening psychological pathology and suicide.  We already know the results, Who.  We don't agree with you based on relative merit not inexperience or lack of awareness.



Due to the fact that you are one of least experienced, least educated and least aware people on this board, your commentary on these issues comes across as the arrogance of dismissal of the viewpoints of those who know better than what you're pitching.  



This is why people get frustrated with your dogmatism.  You continually tell people not to believe their eyes, ears and personal history, but to believe your uneducated, inexperienced opinion based on anecdotes from a support group for program parents.  Let's face facts, the only programs you know anything at all about are SUWS and ASR and what you know about how they administer their treatment is based solely on anecdotal missives of your child and some other program parents.  



Stop trying to tell people who have direct experience with the industry how it is because your responses are the widely-known, widely-employed talking points of the programs and anyone who has direct experience already knows that they bear little resemblence to reality.


"

Well okay, DJ, what is your experience with SUWS and ASR?  and which programs did you attend again?


[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-06-21 05:43 ]

[Troll Control]

Well, I'll tell you again...

I have six years of college education in psychology and social work and nearly a decade of experience working in the field.

I worked for two "programs," one of which is the largest and oldest one in existence and the other is widely regarded as the "model" for all "TBS's."  ASR is based directly upon HLA and it's treatment methods, philosophy and "founding father" are well known to me personally.

My point is that I am trained and educated to evaluate and critique treatment programs.  I read studies about them, have had dozens of clients with experience with them (including a few that attended SUWS) and generally have a solid, reality-based understanding of how they work and the model upon which they are based.

You, on the other hand, clearly and demonstrably have no concept of the following:

-the treatment model
-the effectiveness
-the side-effects
-the players in the industry
-the research surrounding these "schools"

...and many, many more - but I need not waste my time explaining this again, for the umpteenth time.

Are you going to tell me that we're on equal footing here?  You, a completely uneducated program parent and me a licensed therapist with thousands of hours working inside facilities and with their participants?  If that is what you are trying to imply, you are a woefully ignorant fellow.

Every time you open your maw to opine on the industry your pathetic utterances reveal the aforementioned facts and everybody knows it but you.  Are you always the last one to know, or do you just never "get it"?

[Troll Control]

On 2006-06-21 06:32:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"Why compare qualifications with a person who continues to ignore postings by survivors of the abuses at ASR and SUWS?



Seems like a waste of time to me. TheWho is just not willing to hear the truth, or is just very selective in what truth he wants to hear.

This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
http://www.aidoann.com/guncontrol.html' target='_new'>Adolph Hitler

"

True indeed, but I feel like I need to refute his nonsense periodically for the benefit of those who don't have the time or energy to read the previous refutations (the hundreds of them) on other threads.

This guy is as obtuse and ignorant as they come, but it would be a disservice to those of ungelled opinions to allow his nonsense to go unchallenged, lest it become defacto reinforcement of the sales pitches they've heard from the programs.