Author Topic: guilty feelings  (Read 2059 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« on: June 16, 2006, 04:13:00 PM »
SO I was talking to an old freind from CCM who graduated a while after me and she reminded me of what a horrible person I became there. I put together a "process" for her where I shoved needles and old drug paraphanalia her parents sent our therapist in her face and screamed at her and said the most sickening and awful stuff to her. I had totally forgotten about that and I keep remembering what a sadistic mean judgemntal holier than thou person I was then. I feel so sick to my stomach about it and so guilty. Does anyone else feel that way? I cant seem to stop thinking about it, and if anything it makes me more bitter and angry about being forced to go there. I feel like there is little I can do Karmicly speaking to make up for how horrible I was to not only the people there, but my family and friends when I went home. I searched one of my cousins rooms and found a baggie with some seeds in it and told his parents. Needless to say even after numerous apologies and reasurances and five years, our relationship has never been the same. I told on one of my friends from the program who relapsed when she came home to her mom. I avoided a "D" friend I saw on the street by walking across the street and passing her and then crossing again right in front of her. I feel like CCM took so much away from me, not only the time I spent there, but the years I spent afterwards being an obsessive, fearful, judgemental person pushing people away from me and missing out on SO MUCH! Anyway, Im sorry to ramble on, I just needed to get that off my chest.
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Offline Fr. Cassian

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guilty feelings
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2006, 06:57:00 PM »
You were only doing what was needed to keep those people Straight...there is NOTHING whatsoever to feel the least bit guilty about!
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Offline Fr. Cassian

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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2006, 06:57:00 PM »
You were only doing what was needed to keep those people Straight...there is NOTHING whatsoever to feel the least bit guilty about!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2006, 07:44:00 PM »
You were just a kid. I am sure you were told that you were saving them from themselves. I am sure some other kid was as mean to you in the "therapy" sessions as you became.
At the end of the day some of these people may forgive you, you friend obviously did, as she came to see you. Those that don't don't. I want you to forgive yourself. You no longer do these things to people as you now are able to see things differently.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2006, 01:42:00 AM »
One of the wonderful services Fornits provides for survivors is a place to get it off their chest. Sorry they wasted so much of your precious time.

As for your guilt, what would need to happen for you to feel resovled? Can you make it happen?
Have you talked to any of the people you mentioned? Do they hold resentment?

If you're up for it... you might contact them and give them the opportunity to 'get it off their chests'. You'd be wise to be prepared for some harsh words, probably equivalent to the degree of guilt (shame?) you feel. Given that you were the 'perptrator' so to speak, they probably won't have ears to hear about your guilt/shame, for a while anyway.

Realizing my relationship with my younger sister had hit a log jam due to her long-standing resentments (that eeked out as jokes), I offered to listen to all her resentments about the past. She was reluctant at first. It was uncomfortable, but we both learned a lot in the process. In the end, there was no 'forgiving' to do. Many hours later, we both realized that we were kids and each reacted differently to the same environment. We better understood what motivated the other at the time. We were kids, doin the best we could. Childhood- The proving ground. We survived!!!

Guilt can work in a positive way.
Shame kills.  :skull:

The truth is, many people would do the same thing under the same circumstances. Kudos, for figuring it out!!
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Offline MightyAardvark

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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2006, 02:43:00 AM »
My advice, You don't have anything to make up "Karmically". The techniques used on you were more or less the same (differing only in minor points) to those used on PWOs held in China. Given that even fully grown alert and highly skilled and competent men were unable to resist the effects of this kind of cognitive restructuring I think it's totally unreasonable to expect a child to do it. The lingering guilt is just another mechanism of control.
You wanna get even, or you want to make it up? There are people on these boards working very hard to shut down WWASPS, why don't you see howyou can help?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2006, 08:54:00 AM »
I completely understand what you are trying to say. I do want to offer my opinion, and that is the fact not every kid that was there, graduated or made it to upper levels was a complete asshole. Personally, I do not believe just because you were at a WWASPS camp, that gives you a free ride morally. Staff have tried to pull this for a while, so why should other kids get away with it? Yes they use high pressure brainwashing techniques, but at the end of the day you still have the final say about how you are going to treat somebody else. I never treated anyone horribly while there, and sometimes it even cost me points or even more, in order to save my dignity and self respect.
I believe the kids who went overboard and embraced the role as upper levels really have that inside them deep down and it was just allowed to show. I don't think WWASPS turns you into a bad person, as much as they allow you to BE a bad person. Again, this is just my opinion. In my experience the upper levels who were assholes, were just assholes. Maybe it was the program? I don't know, but not everybody was an asshole. Even if it meant doing a little more work.
I feel bad for every kid that ever was sent there, but in reality every kid sent there is not a nice person, there were some mean, spoiled brat kids who LOVED the role given to them. I hope you were not one of them...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2006, 09:09:00 AM »
I don't think that being a programme kids excuses anyone from behaving horribly, but I do think that nobody should be made carry around that kind of guilt forever.
The fact is if you are a kid stuck somewhere horrible & all you ever hear is that "the programme" saved your life & this is coupled with the fact that it is what your whole family beleive and, it is not so easy to make the "moral" choice. I am sorry for the other poster who also suffered because of these places but I want you to move on.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2006, 02:20:00 PM »
Thanks everyone so much for the advice and responses. I have contacted most of the people I feel I did a real wrong to and they have all been really understanding and forgiving, mostly becasue Im not that way anymore. I see what one of the above posters was saying about how if you are a bad person anyway, the ability to control others in an environment just exemplifies that, but that was not the case for me. I really feel for all the CCM mumbo jumbo, I believed in my heart that I was doing the right thing by forcing my views on others, I was doing the right thing by putting my friends through processes, and yes, people did the same thing to me. Actually, my group was known for doing mini seminar processes in group, where others would dress up in clothes our parents would send our therapist and put on music our parents sent our therapist and basically act out a persons worst memories of being home. Like if they were raped, we would act that out in group to remind them, or if they were a "druggie" we would act out thier life at home and how "horrible" they were to their parents and what not. They usually ended up with the person dying. I remember the point in the program where I lost who I was and turned into a totally different person was during my process. My friends dressed up as me and my old friends and basically acted out my life and told me that my friends at home hated me and I was going to die if I didnt stop using drugs (granted I was there for pot and alcohol). It was really horrible and I threw up and cried ALOT it was worse than any process in any seminar, except maybe the one in accountability that was pointless and all people were doing was screamingat each other and making fun of each other. Anyway, I really did change at the program. Im not who I was then, which is why I totally belive in brainwashing. Its like the whole time I was in the program and a coupel years after, I was someone else. ITs really thanks to fornits that I snapped out of that, and thanks to ginger and I am forever greatful for it. But to the poster I was talking about before, I agree that some people may be genuinly mean and pissy when they are sent to programs, but the seminars and group "therapy" there are brainwashing and do turn perfectly kind and non judgemental people into assholes. It happend to me.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2006, 03:12:00 PM »
You have made the amends that you could. Now, you can move forward and let go of the "guilt."
You should be very proud of yourself, for being able to go through this process. Good for you. Now, forgive yourself; and know that you are a good, worthy, person. Good luck.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2006, 07:05:00 PM »
***Like if they were raped, we would act that out in group to remind them, or if they were a "druggie" we would act out thier life at home and how "horrible" they were to their parents and what not. They usually ended up with the person dying.

Good lord. What would the therapeutic community at-large think of this?
What exactly were ya'll 'reminding' the rape victim of? That it was her fault?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2006, 07:10:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-20 16:05:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Like if they were raped, we would act that out in group to remind them, or if they were a "druggie" we would act out thier life at home and how "horrible" they were to their parents and what not. They usually ended up with the person dying.



Good lord. What would the therapeutic community at-large think of this?

What exactly were ya'll 'reminding' the rape victim of? That it was her fault?"



Happened quite often.  Yes, we were supposed to look at our responsibility in the situation.  How we got ourselves into that kind of environment in the first place.  Same ol same ol as saying a woman was asking for it if she wore a short skirt or went to a bar alone.  Pretty twisted huh?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2006, 06:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-20 16:05:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Like if they were raped, we would act that out in group to remind them, or if they were a "druggie" we would act out thier life at home and how "horrible" they were to their parents and what not. They usually ended up with the person dying.



Good lord. What would the therapeutic community at-large think of this?

What exactly were ya'll 'reminding' the rape victim of? That it was her fault?"


Its funny that you say that. My moms ex boyfriend, the man she was dating while I was at CCM, was appaled by TASK seminars (he owns his own company and does drug and alcohol therapy and groups and other therapy and stuff). He went to Discovery with my mom and freaked out on the facilitator, telling him he was disgusted with their "theraputic techniques" and that he would know, being a licensed therapist. He walked out and of course wasnt allowed to be a big part of my life ther after that. ITs funny how they do that, a parent who dosnt agree with something goes from being held up on a pedestal and being an important key role in the kids program to being non working and decitful and having as little to do with the program as possible.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2006, 12:45:00 AM »
This is another one of my long rambles, but if you're the one feeling guilty, I hope you'll read it and get something useful out of it.  I'm sleepy and don't have time to edit, so hey, take whatever you can use:

One of the things I want you to understand in dealing with your guilty feelings is that what happened to you is part of the brain washing technique used to break the victims---in this case, used to break you.

What they do is try to sucker you into a morally complicit act.  They try to sucker you into a very small, seemingly insignificant act---an act that makes you part of what they're doing to you, by you doing it to others---and then build on it.  It's like how you boil a live frog:  Plop a frog into boiling water and it will jump right out.  Put a frog in cold water and heat it up slowly and the frog will stay in the water until you boil it to death.

The Handmaid's Tale by Atwood is a good book for showing some of the classic patterns of brainwashing.  The "ceremonies" the Gilead men made for the rapes---they made the wife be in the same room and hold the handmaid's hands up during the rape.  The handmaid had to do various stuff, etc.  They suckered people into the brainwashing and into the system by making them complicit in the system.

It's like the Nazi internal concentration camp operations run by the Judenrat---they got Jews to do a lot of the work of actually running the camp, making them complicit in the system that murdered them.

It's a classic and very deliberate technique used in breaking human beings down into beaten, compliant, shattered wrecks.

It even works on full grown soldiers who have gone to SERE* school to learn how to resist it.

A teenager, any teenager, whose mind is not mature and who has none of the experience to ground him in the solid sense of self a healthy adult has----a teenager wouldn't stand a chance.

There are a few who break to a lesser extent.  From what I've seen, those seem to have mostly been the ones who were close to turning 18, so they had more maturity to use to resist with and they could pretend and play the game until the clock ran out and they could leave.

Even they didn't come out unscathed.  To some extent the mask you wear in such a situation becomes another face of you---cult dissociative disorder is one of the names for that (which also happened to you---that "other you" you're talking about is a cult-implanted alternate personality)

Hardened combat vets who have been through SERE* school get damaged by the same techniques, and broken if the people holding them have enough time.

You were a teenager.  You didn't have a chance.

You didn't do horrible things to other people.  The people running the prison you were in did horrible things to you that, against your will, distorted you into a tool they used to hurt other people.  It was the people pulling your strings, after they broke you, who did the harm to those other people.

It feels to you like it was you doing those horrible things.  That's a mind game of the monsters who broke you, still playing out in your mind.  They were pulling your strings like a puppet, and you had no chance not to be their puppet.

What you are responsible for is, now that you are out where nobody else is pulling your strings, how you behave.  You are responsible for the actions you take or don't take to recover from what happened to you so you can treat others well today and tomorrow.

People who blather about your moral responsibility for whatever "you" did while you'd been broken and were a puppet on strings (even though it sometimes felt like you had free will, it was a deliberately fostered illusion of free will to make you feel complicit in the bad things they did)---those people don't know what they're talking about, because they don't understand how experts break captives.

Sometimes they break them for interrogation purposes, sometimes just for the hell of it, sometimes to make them behave compliantly after release, sometimes as an object lesson for people who will see the broken result.  It happens in virtually every nation in the world, in some more than others.

In this case, secret police and military intelligence interrogation techniques have been turned to the use of breaking kids to order into compliance for parents with enough money to pay for it and enough naivete or callousness not to ask too many questions about how the results are obtained.

You didn't stand a ghost of a chance.  What you did while you were still under their direct influence, and under the indirect influence of the cult-implanted personality, was entirely the moral responsibility of the people who were pulling your strings.

A long time ago, I was raped.  Like almost all rape victims, I blamed myself a lot for certain parts of what happened.  As part of recovery, I had to learn to internalize that the rapist was completely and wholly morally responsible for the decision to rape me and, therefore, for the entirety of the rape.

People who are in a near death situation where they survive and others don't experience survivor guilt.  They have to learn to place blame for whatever happened wherever it really lies, and not on themselves.

To recover, I want you to learn to place the blame for the things "you" did as a puppet on strings squarely on the people who had broken you and then were pulling your strings.

They deliberately pulled your strings to make "you" do those things.  They made you do those things because it broke your resistance further and made you even more firmly their puppet, and because it had the divide and conquer effect of setting you against the people in the same boat as you---increasing their control over them, too.  It was 100% intentional on their part and you had zero chance against it.  You were a minor child.  You had neither the tools nor the capacity to resist what they did.

Just like a rape, it was all the puppetteers' fault, and none of yours.

What you do today and tomorrow is your responsibility.

In this life we all have enough karma to deal with making amends for what we are responsible for without taking responsibility for the intentional, deliberate, premeditated bad acts of others.

Leave the puppetteers to the damnations they've earned and focus your own efforts on your own todays and tomorrows.

Julie Cochrane

* SERE -- Search, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.  It's a very tough training school in the military that trains soldiers in certain specialties in how to resist and survive the techniques that are commonplace in these behavior mod facilities.  SERE school does things to attendees that they're almost never willing to talk about, most say they would never voluntarily do again, and that would be criminal offenses if done to the same people anywhere else in the military.  The things that makes SERE school justified are that the people who go are volunteers, are in the occupations most likely to get them downed in enemy territory and/or captured, and SERE school has a proven track record of helping more than it hurts by helping soldiers stay alive and get out of horrible situations.  A soldier in SERE school knows that the purpose of the school isn't to break him into compliance, but to help him fight against people who really would want to break him.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 12:05:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-06-23 21:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"This is another one of my long rambles, but if you're the one feeling guilty, I hope you'll read it and get something useful out of it.  I'm sleepy and don't have time to edit, so hey, take whatever you can use:



One of the things I want you to understand in dealing with your guilty feelings is that what happened to you is part of the brain washing technique used to break the victims---in this case, used to break you.



What they do is try to sucker you into a morally complicit act.  They try to sucker you into a very small, seemingly insignificant act---an act that makes you part of what they're doing to you, by you doing it to others---and then build on it.  It's like how you boil a live frog:  Plop a frog into boiling water and it will jump right out.  Put a frog in cold water and heat it up slowly and the frog will stay in the water until you boil it to death.



The Handmaid's Tale by Atwood is a good book for showing some of the classic patterns of brainwashing.  The "ceremonies" the Gilead men made for the rapes---they made the wife be in the same room and hold the handmaid's hands up during the rape.  The handmaid had to do various stuff, etc.  They suckered people into the brainwashing and into the system by making them complicit in the system.



It's like the Nazi internal concentration camp operations run by the Judenrat---they got Jews to do a lot of the work of actually running the camp, making them complicit in the system that murdered them.



It's a classic and very deliberate technique used in breaking human beings down into beaten, compliant, shattered wrecks.



It even works on full grown soldiers who have gone to SERE* school to learn how to resist it.



A teenager, any teenager, whose mind is not mature and who has none of the experience to ground him in the solid sense of self a healthy adult has----a teenager wouldn't stand a chance.



There are a few who break to a lesser extent.  From what I've seen, those seem to have mostly been the ones who were close to turning 18, so they had more maturity to use to resist with and they could pretend and play the game until the clock ran out and they could leave.



Even they didn't come out unscathed.  To some extent the mask you wear in such a situation becomes another face of you---cult dissociative disorder is one of the names for that (which also happened to you---that "other you" you're talking about is a cult-implanted alternate personality)



Hardened combat vets who have been through SERE* school get damaged by the same techniques, and broken if the people holding them have enough time.



You were a teenager.  You didn't have a chance.



You didn't do horrible things to other people.  The people running the prison you were in did horrible things to you that, against your will, distorted you into a tool they used to hurt other people.  It was the people pulling your strings, after they broke you, who did the harm to those other people.



It feels to you like it was you doing those horrible things.  That's a mind game of the monsters who broke you, still playing out in your mind.  They were pulling your strings like a puppet, and you had no chance not to be their puppet.



What you are responsible for is, now that you are out where nobody else is pulling your strings, how you behave.  You are responsible for the actions you take or don't take to recover from what happened to you so you can treat others well today and tomorrow.



People who blather about your moral responsibility for whatever "you" did while you'd been broken and were a puppet on strings (even though it sometimes felt like you had free will, it was a deliberately fostered illusion of free will to make you feel complicit in the bad things they did)---those people don't know what they're talking about, because they don't understand how experts break captives.



Sometimes they break them for interrogation purposes, sometimes just for the hell of it, sometimes to make them behave compliantly after release, sometimes as an object lesson for people who will see the broken result.  It happens in virtually every nation in the world, in some more than others.



In this case, secret police and military intelligence interrogation techniques have been turned to the use of breaking kids to order into compliance for parents with enough money to pay for it and enough naivete or callousness not to ask too many questions about how the results are obtained.



You didn't stand a ghost of a chance.  What you did while you were still under their direct influence, and under the indirect influence of the cult-implanted personality, was entirely the moral responsibility of the people who were pulling your strings.



A long time ago, I was raped.  Like almost all rape victims, I blamed myself a lot for certain parts of what happened.  As part of recovery, I had to learn to internalize that the rapist was completely and wholly morally responsible for the decision to rape me and, therefore, for the entirety of the rape.



People who are in a near death situation where they survive and others don't experience survivor guilt.  They have to learn to place blame for whatever happened wherever it really lies, and not on themselves.



To recover, I want you to learn to place the blame for the things "you" did as a puppet on strings squarely on the people who had broken you and then were pulling your strings.



They deliberately pulled your strings to make "you" do those things.  They made you do those things because it broke your resistance further and made you even more firmly their puppet, and because it had the divide and conquer effect of setting you against the people in the same boat as you---increasing their control over them, too.  It was 100% intentional on their part and you had zero chance against it.  You were a minor child.  You had neither the tools nor the capacity to resist what they did.



Just like a rape, it was all the puppetteers' fault, and none of yours.



What you do today and tomorrow is your responsibility.



In this life we all have enough karma to deal with making amends for what we are responsible for without taking responsibility for the intentional, deliberate, premeditated bad acts of others.



Leave the puppetteers to the damnations they've earned and focus your own efforts on your own todays and tomorrows.



Julie Cochrane



* SERE -- Search, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape.  It's a very tough training school in the military that trains soldiers in certain specialties in how to resist and survive the techniques that are commonplace in these behavior mod facilities.  SERE school does things to attendees that they're almost never willing to talk about, most say they would never voluntarily do again, and that would be criminal offenses if done to the same people anywhere else in the military.  The things that makes SERE school justified are that the people who go are volunteers, are in the occupations most likely to get them downed in enemy territory and/or captured, and SERE school has a proven track record of helping more than it hurts by helping soldiers stay alive and get out of horrible situations.  A soldier in SERE school knows that the purpose of the school isn't to break him into compliance, but to help him fight against people who really would want to break him."


I very much appreciate that, thank you. Something you said reminded me of something, the program really focuses ALOT on making teens take responsibility for ALL actions, we dont get to be normal and take only the blame thats ours, we have to be responsible for how other people treat us to, like your rape comparison. I remember girls who were raped before CCM beign blamed for the rape. They wore "innapropriate cloths" or were at a bad party with bad people, so somehow it came to be their fault for it all. They specialize in that really, making you feel that you have to be accountable for it all. Im starting to learn to undo the damage that moral extreme has done to me but its slow going. I guess it must be pretty easy to convince teens that are already depressed and insecure to belive that everything is their fault. I really hope that WWASP gets shut down.
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