When did adoelscence become a pathology

[Anonymous]

After having looked at the marketing of a lot of TBS and Wilderness programmes on the internet, I am noting a a common theme to most of them, which is that Adolescence is a pathology.

In the event that you kid has serious drug issues or is mentally ill then surely an actual specialist centre with doctors is the way to go. If your child  has been a victim of sexual assault or some kind of abuse then seeing a sympathtic therapist and showing them as much love & support as possible may be just the thing.

But what if your kid is experimenting with drugs but not necessarily addicted, giving you way to much lip, wearing clothes that look like haloween costumes and challenging all the things you believe in like your religious and political ideology? What if you think their friends are little shits and they are sulky and moody. What if they have decided that football is lame & they dont want to play anymore but reading gothic horror novels is their thing now? What if they care more about TV than their school work? Or they are having sex with their boyfriend. Do these things really need to be "treated" as
an illness that needs to be tended to with either therapy or military level discipline?
 
If you believe these programmes it is.(even the ones that are not necessarily abusive)But why?

And if you want to encourage a greater sense of respect and moral accountability in your otherwise healthy kid doesnt telling them they "need treatment" let them off the hook. "I didnt call my teacher captain dickface because it was fun @ the time, i did it because I need help"!

Countries without similar programmes also have teenagers doing the same things and having the same fights with their parents, yet they do not necessarily all have higher levels or crime, sexual disease or general social disaster in their adults. Does this not indicate that most kids will just grow out of their teenage years and go on to  be average reasonable citizens?

I am interested to know what people think
wouldnt all the money poured into these programmes be better spent going into community programmes which strenghten support systems for all parents who feel the family could use some assistance?

I am interested to know what people think.

[Anonymous]

I didn't get "criminalizing" out ot the OP's writing.  Still, I don't agree with the premise entirely, though some of hte issues dealt with are rather normal.  One real problem is that a number of psych diagnosis are based on degree as perceived by the diagnoser or someone.  Behavior X is normal unless it happens excessively, in which case the person has X-syndrome.  But, there is no lab test showing bacteria for psych issues like for strep throat.

For a great many, if not nearly all [I've not done a survey to tell], I don't think the behaviors OP cites are of a degree that would justify a LT "placement".  However, depending on degree and trend, something short term may well be a great idea -- beginning perhaps with a family camping trip - minus TV, etc.

[Anonymous]

That is the thing though. Why would you take your kid to a shrink for anything that was not a potenital sign of mental illness (like depression)or a response to a specific traumatic event. Why would you not discipline your child for rudeness (not necessarily with a big can of whoppy ass either two springs!) or limit entertainment if they were not doing their homework.  
What does it achieve to try and stop your kid from being sexually active except frustration on your behalf and resentment on theirs. Why is loosing interest in extra curricular activities so bad anyway? (a common thing on the list with BTS & wilderness camps)
 why not just pick your battles a bit, count to ten, make yourself a nice stiff scotch and mutter to some other adult "I don't what's wrong with these bloddy kids today!" You will save yourself 30 grand & one daylook back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself.  :smile:

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-11 06:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"That is the thing though. Why would you take your kid to a shrink for anything that was not a potenital sign of mental illness (like depression)or a response to a specific traumatic event. Why would you not discipline your child for rudeness (not necessarily with a big can of whoppy ass either two springs!) or limit entertainment if they were not doing their homework.  

What does it achieve to try and stop your kid from being sexually active except frustration on your behalf and resentment on theirs. Why is loosing interest in extra curricular activities so bad anyway? (a common thing on the list with BTS & wilderness camps)

 why not just pick your battles a bit, count to ten, make yourself a nice stiff scotch and mutter to some other adult "I don't what's wrong with these bloddy kids today!" You will save yourself 30 grand & one daylook back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself.  :nworthy:

[Deborah]

When did adolesence become a pathology?

Short answer- when it became politically desirable and profitable. Children are a large demographic ripe for pathologizing and commodification.

***You will save yourself 30 grand & one day
look back on it all and feel smug about having been able to parent your kid all by yourself.***

Values have changed. There are no awards for parenting. People are rewarded for recognizing their ?weaknesses?, their 'incompetence' and seeking ?professional help?.
It took a few generations to steer the masses in that direction, but it has been a smashing success. It is hugely profitable to create a culture fraught with crises that requires paid intervention/treatment.

Baby is fed a ?formula? instead of human breast milk-followed by a crappy diet- which results in a plethora of medical problems.
Kid has a cold- given antibiotics, just in case.
Chronic ear infections & viruses- more antibiotics
Overuse of antibiotic- tubes in ears and treatment for overgrowth of Candida and IBS.
A few years of not having their physical or emotional needs met and ?problem behaviors? arise.
Kid is too active- give him kiddie cocaine.
Ritalin causes insomnia- add a sleep aid.
Kid not active enough (?depressed?)- add a SSRI- they claim to be able to dx depression in infants now- psych drugs from birth to the grave- extremely profitable.
Kid develops undesirable side effects- add another or two rx?s to the mix.
Kid doesn't respond to drugs and/or challenges authority- send them to a warehouse to have their behavior modified.

Gradually over the years, parents have been separated from inherent wisdom. It was replaced with the belief that they are incapable and must depend on ?professional? help for ever minor issue. They haven?t the skills to deal with the simplest problem because they were conditioned growing up, to focus all their attention on education and career, and leave the problems to the experts. They condition their own children the same way. Their teen children can?t perform simple functions like fry an egg or wash a load of laundry, forget managing money or balancing a check book. I call it "contributing to the disability of a minor". Why bother with the mundane chores of life, like cooking, cleaning, parenting, when you can pay someone else to do it?

Inherent parental wisdom was replaced with fear- fear of living, fear of dying, fear of adolescents. Zero tolerance replaced common sense.

With both parents working, many kids are raised from birth in institutions. Parents spend a couple of hours an evening with their kids, best case. Knowing nothing else, they distract, coddle/cater to, and entertain them all weekend to avoid any fuss. Having survived the weekend, they can?t wait to drop them off at daycare or school on Monday so they can get back to their relationships with adults. Seems perfectly normal that when the teen becomes a pain in the arse, that another institution is what?s needed. The commonly accepted thinking now is that  a ?responsible? parent recognizes that their ?struggling teen? needs to be placed in a program.
 
Parents seem confused and apathetic. There are so many experts with conflicting opinions these days, they don?t know which one?s advice to follow. They allow rude, anti-social behavior, and avoid the ?No? word, for fear of causing their kid permanent psychological damage or being judged by their peers. They switch from method to method- no consistency. Kids know their parents haven?t a clue which results in confusion and a lack of trust. Having not spent much time with their kids, having never developed communication, they seem bewildered when they ?suddenly?- just out of the blue- have a ?struggling teen? on their hands.

I believe it was during the Industrial Revolution when the middle class was burgeoning that ?childhood professionals? came to be. Middle class families could afford homes with more than one bedroom. It was advised that children should be isolated in their own rooms and spent less time with the family unit, seen but not heard..., while working class kids were slaving in the factors making the middle/owning classes more wealthy. And of course, whatever the middle class does, the working class aspires to. It?s an experiment gone bad.
But parents have traveled so far down that road that they can?t find their way back

Welcome to The Machine?..

Moral compass...Who needs help?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =75#163147

Interesting perspective-from religious persecution to psychiatric oppression
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#65038

While I think these authors swing a bit too far to the other side, I agree with many of their perceptions and opinions of 'how we got here'.

One Nation Under Therapy:
How the Helping Culture is Eroding Self-Reliance
by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Satel
St. Martin?s Press (April 1, 2005)
Americans have traditionally placed great value on self-reliance and fortitude. In recent decades, however, we have seen the rise of a therapeutic ethic that views Americans as emotionally underdeveloped, psychically frail, and requiring the ministrations of mental health professionals to cope with life's vicissitudes. Being "in touch with one's feelings" and freely expressing them have become paramount personal virtues. Today-with a book for every ailment, a counselor for every crisis, a lawsuit for every grievance, and a TV show for every conceivable problem-we are at risk of degrading our native ability to cope with life's challenges.
Drawing on established science and common sense, Christina Hoff Sommers and Dr. Sally Satel reveal how "therapism" and the burgeoning trauma industry have come to pervade our lives. Help is offered everywhere under the presumption that we need it: in children's classrooms, the workplace, churches, courtrooms, the media, the military. But with all the "help" comes a host of troubling consequences, including:
?The myth of stressed-out, homework-burdened, hypercompetitive, and depressed or suicidal schoolchildren in need of therapy and medication
?The loss of moral bearings in our approach to lying, crime, addiction, and other foibles and vices
?The unasked-for "grief counselors" who descend on bereaved families, schools, and communities following a tragedy, offering dubious advice while billing plenty of money
?The expansion of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder from an affliction of war veterans to nearly everyone who has experienced a setback
Intelligent, provocative, and wryly amusing, One Nation under Therapy demonstrates that "talking about" problems is no substitute for confronting them.
http://www.onenationundertherapy.com/

Review of One Nation Under Therapy:
One Nation Under Therapy addresses the issue of pathologizing childhood, and among other things describes how middle-class, suburban parents are trying to INSULATE CHILDREN AGAINST FAILURE and against the NORMAL PROCESSES, e.g., grieving, sadness, etc., of life. The book addresses adhd and the push in some therapeutic circles to keep boys from behaving as boys do. Pathologizing childhood means to keep the child from expressing his/her natural curiosity, to discourage play and expect the child to focus inward upon their feelings, working from the assumption that all children suffer from a pathology or mental illness or bad parenting practices until they can run the gauntlet and prove otherwise.
Well, you got me going with that one ...

[AtomicAnt]

On 2006-06-11 01:36:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"I think the difference is America has over-compensated for its adolcent problems by criminalizing the hell out of everything. Now there are laws on the books moderating just about every imaginable facet of juvenile behavior. What instigated this movement to turn children into mad dog killers I have absolutely no idea.



I would wager to say alot of it comes from the typical knee jerk reactionary politicians looking to score votes by appearing tough on crime.

God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author

"

This focus isn't just on children, it is on everyone. Enter the Nanny State.

How can we expect children to grow up when everyone is treated like a child? If something is slightly risky or unhealthy, just ban it. Make kids wear helmets all the time. Make adults wear them, too. Make everyone use seatbelts. Ban any product that may cause harm. It's hard to argue against safety in a world where safety is more important than individual freedom.

The same goes for trust. Put metal detectors and cameras everywhere in the schools and drug test kids at regular intervals to keep them out of trouble and all you really do is instill a culture lacking in trust and respect. These kids will grow up expecting their employers and government to monitor all their activities, tell them what to do, and protect them at all times. They will never grow up.

I keep hearing the word "accountability" being thrown around these days. You never heard this word so much 30 or 40 years ago. The problem is that the accountability game has really become the blame game and no one is pointing at themselves. Everyone wants to hold the other person, or kid, accountable while making lame excuses or lying to protect themselves. It's disgusting. And, it goes right to the top of our corporations and government.

And, finally, where the hell did this zero-tolerance bullcrap come from? Kids are kids and don't automatically know everything. You have to teach them. Of course they will break rules and test limits. They are supposed to. Tossing them away or harshly punishing for the first mistake is just stupid.

Where have all the adults gone? What happened to common sense?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-11 15:47:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

How can we expect children to grow up when everyone is treated like a child? If something is slightly risky or unhealthy, just ban it. Make kids wear helmets all the time. Make adults wear them, too. Make everyone use seatbelts. Ban any product that may cause harm. It's hard to argue against safety in a world where safety is more important than individual freedom."

I tend to see these things, not as safety driven, so much as profit driven. The insurance industry wants us to wear helmets and seat belts because accidents, paying claims, cuts into their profits.
Helmets and seat belts have to be produce, which fuels the economy.

The gov't could care less if you die tomorrow because you sustained a head injury while riding your motorcycle without a helmet, or weren't wearing a seat belt. They do care about protecting the insurance company's profits.

We don't get to choose which risks we take or even how we want to die (without consequence),if it costs anyone money or violates the prevailing religious values.

If the government were genuniely concerned about the safety of citizens there are many unhealthy things they would ban.

[MightyAardvark]

According Professor Mike Males of UC Santa Cruz the notion of adolescence as pathology is rooted in the inherent insecurity and latent bigotry of the baby boomer generation.
His argument is that young people represent the last identifiable demographic group that lack a strong political voice. There is no one to speak up for them and therefore they are a safe target for demonization every time a politician needs to score points from the law and order brigade.
This allows middle American Middle class middle aged baby boomers to deflect attention away from their own shitty behaviour.

It's more complex than that naturally but that's a precis.

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird. Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal.
--Unknown

[Anonymous]

"I am interested to know what people think
wouldnt all the money poured into these programmes be better spent going into community programmes which strenghten support systems for all parents who feel the family could use some assistance?

I am interested to know what people think."
********************************************
You are absolutely right. The money would be much better spent in community programs. Unfortunately, the the vast majority of residential programs for teens are owned by for profit corporations, so it's all about the money, not the kids. Community based programs would have to be staffed by professionals, not uneducated minimum wage babysitters, which would remove the profit motive from the picture. These places are not going go away voluntarily while business is booming. Exposing the ineffectiveness and abusive practices of these programs is the only way they will ever disappear.

[Carmel]

I see so many other parents my age that have begun to act just like my/their parents did 15 years ago.  Hasnt anyone learned anything?  Dont they remember what it was like?  Dont they remember the things that did and did not work?  Apparently not.  I REMEMBER all of the things that were unhealthy for my parents to do, I REMEMBER how I made bad choices and felt bad about myself because of their lack of accountability in teaching me about real life and the things in it, instead just sweeping it all under a rug as if it didnt exist.  Am I the only person my age who REMEMBERS at all?  I try everyday to make sure I form my parenting around the idea that I wont make my parents mistakes.  I wont refuse to speak to them about sex or drugs or violence.  I will talk to them about making proper choices, not just demanding they make MY choices.  I am stunned at the total denial by people of my generation in making a change to fit the times when it comes to raising their kids.  Its really sad.  It makes me feel like we have a whole new generation to fear for being placed into these programs.  

I also agree that the lack of personal confidence in parents has all but vacated the collective conciousness.  Mothers who will let their children scream for hours in hunger because the doctor demanded they only feed them on schedule.  I could go on and on about the helpless attitude mothers exhibit when it comes to newborns specifically.  They abandon all sense in favor of a doctors orders.  And when it doesnt work?  They just think something esle is wrong with the kid.  Never that their pediatrician might be a frickin moron.  Its a sorry state of affairs.

[Anonymous]

[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:52 ]

[Red Flag Touches]

[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:51 ]

[Anonymous]

[ This Message was edited by: Three Springs Waygookin on 2006-06-12 17:51 ]

[AtomicAnt]

On 2006-06-11 18:02:00, Anonymous wrote:


I tend to see these things, not as safety driven, so much as profit driven. The insurance industry wants us to wear helmets and seat belts because accidents, paying claims, cuts into their profits.

Helmets and seat belts have to be produce, which fuels the economy.



The gov't could care less if you die tomorrow because you sustained a head injury while riding your motorcycle without a helmet, or weren't wearing a seat belt. They do care about protecting the insurance company's profits.



We don't get to choose which risks we take or even how we want to die (without consequence),if it costs anyone money or violates the prevailing religious values.



If the government were genuniely concerned about the safety of citizens there are many unhealthy things they would ban.

"

Actually, these laws came about because vocal activists pushed them, they are hard to argue against (Who is against safety?), and politicians jumping on the bandwagon gained votes for doing so. Yes, insurance companies profited.

In fact, the legal justification for these infringements on personal freedom came through the rationalization that their hospital bills would increase costs for the rest of us.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2006-06-12 11:41:00, Carmel wrote:

"I see so many other parents my age that have begun to act just like my/their parents did 15 years ago.  Hasnt anyone learned anything?  Dont they remember what it was like?  Dont they remember the things that did and did not work?  Apparently not.  I REMEMBER all of the things that were unhealthy for my parents to do, I REMEMBER how I made bad choices and felt bad about myself because of their lack of accountability in teaching me about real life and the things in it, instead just sweeping it all under a rug as if it didnt exist.  Am I the only person my age who REMEMBERS at all?  I try everyday to make sure I form my parenting around the idea that I wont make my parents mistakes.  I wont refuse to speak to them about sex or drugs or violence.  I will talk to them about making proper choices, not just demanding they make MY choices.  I am stunned at the total denial by people of my generation in making a change to fit the times when it comes to raising their kids.  Its really sad.  It makes me feel like we have a whole new generation to fear for being placed into these programs.  



I also agree that the lack of personal confidence in parents has all but vacated the collective conciousness.  Mothers who will let their children scream for hours in hunger because the doctor demanded they only feed them on schedule.  I could go on and on about the helpless attitude mothers exhibit when it comes to newborns specifically.  They abandon all sense in favor of a doctors orders.  And when it doesnt work?  They just think something esle is wrong with the kid.  Never that their pediatrician might be a frickin moron.  Its a sorry state of affairs. "

Exactly, any asshole can write a parenting book just like any asshole can write a diet book. Neither is worth the paper they are printed on. Toss them.

Engage you kids on their level. Play with them on their terms. Listen to them. Hug them. Be excited by their presences. Ninety-nine percent of behavior problems would just disappear if people told the pop-psychologists to fuck off and just got real with their kids. If a kid knows they're loved and valued, they will do okay.