Rats are scurrying....

[SHH]

I dont know which doctor they would call on unless they use the ones they had on campus before...but since I used to live there I will tell you that town is 9 miles away and the hospital in town is 10 miles away. They do have lifeflight available, but it would be quicker to dispatch an ambulance in a true emergency. Also, the Army Ranger camp is less than 2 miles the other direction, and they have medics and a medivac helicopter too. The school is out in the country, but, not THAT remotely located that medical help cant be obtained in a relatively short period of time.

[RobertBruce]

On 2006-05-29 14:32:00, TheWho wrote:

"

Robertbruce said: Are you honestly going to argue that the state of Georgia has no minimum requirements for who can be handling medication or serve as a school nurse?

You are all over the map, stay focused.  I will try to say it again.  We need to establish the requirements that are needed, as a minimum, to dispense drugs.  Then compare the requirements to what is actually being done at HLA.  Then we know where they stand.  I never stated there were no requirements by the state.



After all this we still have not established that there is a problem at HLA in regards to dispensing drugs.

"

Dont blame me for the fact that you cant keep up. It isnt my fault youre so limited. Ask for help if you need it.

Let me dumb it down for you further.

Say that you are correct, HLA isnt violating any standards or laws. That it is perfectly legal to have an untrained, un qualified, unsupervised receptrionist passing out meds.

Does that make it okay? Would you as a parent paying close to 100,000.00 be okay with such an arrangement?

Shouldnt that amount of money buy some amount of security for your child?

Given all the other basics cut off and the often substandard kliving I would think this just might set some parents off.

[TheWho]

Dont blame me for the fact that you cant keep up. It isnt my fault youre so limited. Ask for help if you need it.

Let me dumb it down for you further.

Okay the class bully, I remember you, you peaked out in highschool.

Say that you are correct, HLA isnt violating any standards or laws. That it is perfectly legal to have an untrained, un qualified, unsupervised receptrionist passing out meds.

Does that make it okay? Would you as a parent paying close to 100,000.00 be okay with such an arrangement?

I am not right or wrong,  I am not taking sides, just trying to determine if there is a problem and how serious it is and work thru each issue.

If they had a process in place that would ensure the kids get the proper medications until such time as they can hire a new nurse and they were in line with any other schools requirements in the state then ,yes, I would be happy.  An employee quits or gets fired everyday, this isn?t unique, parents who are in business know this.

Shouldnt that amount of money buy some amount of security for your child?

I think that is the whole point of the child being there, for most parents, is to be in a safe environment.

Given all the other basics cut off and the often substandard kliving I would think this just might set some parents off.

It just might, is that your motivation to find something to set some parents off?  Sounds a little immature.

[RobertBruce]

No, read my previous post as a result of Deborah?s data. I don?t think it included pharmacies. It was a way to align HLA?s present situation with State requirements/ recommendations, take a look. I think we can conclude the Meds issue and move on

You brought up the pharmacy not me, now youre just trying to dodge the issue. I can see why you want to conclude the meds conversation to be over with, youre losing the argument and want to change the subject. Not uncommon here.

Why do you get so aggressive and uptight? I think we are putting facts on the table and trying to resolve issues, at least I am, I don?t think I appeared to be afraid to address the issues. I think it is important to resolve or at least find consensus on one point at a time, you seem to jump around talking about kids not having enough toilet paper etc. when the issue on the table was dispensing meds.

I explained to you last night, Im not agressive, Im just condescending and mocking towards you because youre a tool. Youve come onto a website discussing a school you know nothing about, discounting peoples experiences you know nothing about, and all the while claiming nuetrality while you ardently defend a school you again know nothing about. As to why youre afraid of the issues, I wouldnt know and again its not my fault you cant keep up with the pace of the convo. The issue for me has always been the truth about HLA. I will use any fact to expose that truth. Try and keep up.

The next issue is since they fired the nurse they are in need of a medical person. This stinks all around (I have been there) and HLA is probably in scramble mode trying to get coverage in case of an emergency. This is not a unique situation we have had several schools in our district whos nursing position went vacant for over a 30 day period. It was not as critical, though, since they were not boarding schools and the kids went home everyday. But in any event the situation sometimes can not be helped and you have to deal with it, it may be the schools fault or the nurses fault.
So yes, the question needs to be answered what they do in case of an emergency. Some questions I would ask is do they have medflight in the area? A local nurse/doctor (not on staff) who is in the area that they could call on. None emergency issues could be handled through car pooling to the nearest doctor I imagine, so that?s not a big deal.

Fine. Imagine you are a student at HLA. Youve just gone to see the receptionist who is playing nurse about a bad stomach ache youre having. Remember you attend a school that will not allow you to discuss with your parents about feeling ill and which holds a policy of "if the child is not visibly ill or injured assume he is faking." Now this receptionist allows you to lay down in the infirmary for a short time and then sends you on your way. You return later and she allows you some pepto. To the untrained staff you have a stomach ache, maybe youre constipated. If the problem persist you may be taken to the doctor in a week or two. Unfortunatly your appendix burst before you get a chance to see the doctor.

Do you see the problem now? Not all medical emergencies are as clear cut as a broken arm. These kids are in real danger and the school doesnt seem to care, all in the name of saving a buck.

If I were a parent I would call and try to raise my comfort level a bit by getting answers to some of the aforementioned questions.

I doubt you would care that much. [ This Message was edited by: RobertBruce on 2006-05-29 19:59 ]

[RobertBruce]

Okay the class bully, I remember you, you peaked out in highschool.

nope still in grad school. Although i can see why you were picked on.

I am not right or wrong, I am not taking sides, just trying to determine if there is a problem and how serious it is and work thru each issue.

If they had a process in place that would ensure the kids get the proper medications until such time as they can hire a new nurse and they were in line with any other schools requirements in the state then ,yes, I would be happy. An employee quits or gets fired everyday, this isn?t unique, parents who are in business know this.

Okay but what about your kids medical care in the meantime? What if they werent planning on hiring a replacement?

I think that is the whole point of the child being there, for most parents, is to be in a safe environment.

Ummm you dont have to look hard for a dozen reasons why it isnt a safe place for children. Ask if youd like specifics.

It just might, is that your motivation to find something to set some parents off? Sounds a little immature.

My motivation is to see the truth about hla brought to light. If a few parents show some justifiable rage so be it. I dont know that that would be immature but since you brought it up, what is your motivation for being here? Is it mature?

[TheWho]

You brought up the pharmacy not me, now youre just trying to dodge the issue. I can see why you want to conclude the meds conversation to be over with, youre losing the argument and want to change the subject. Not uncommon here.

Well lets take another look, yes earlier on, when we were discussing ?Debbie? handing out meds with no experience a pharmacy.  As we collected more information we concluded that HLA was in line with the states requirements and after the nurse was fired they fell below state expectations but where still as good as 75% of the schools in the state.  There were no comparisons to pharmacies, please keep up (or read the posts for comprehension)

Fine. Imagine you are a student at HLA. Youve just gone to see the receptionist who is playing nurse about a bad stomach ache youre having. Remember you attend a school that will not allow you to discuss with your parents about feeling ill and which holds a policy of "if the child is not visibly ill or injured assume he is faking." Now this receptionist allows you to lay down in the infirmary for a short time and then sends you on your way. You return later and she allows you some pepto. To the untrained staff you have a stomach ache, maybe youre constipated. If the problem persist you may be taken to the doctor in a week or two. Unfortunatly your appendix burst before you get a chance to see the doctor.

This exactly why they need an interim plan or process.  Back up doctor in the area etc.  What is standard procedure?  What do other programs/schools do ?  There must be many other schools who have faced the same problem.  Again this isn?t unique.

[TheWho]

nope still in grad school. Although i can see why you were picked on.

Hmmm... Okay

Okay but what about your kids medical care in the meantime? What if they werent planning on hiring a replacement?

I would view that as a problem if they did not plan to hire another medical person.

My motivation is to see the truth about hla brought to light.

A very good way to accomplish your goal is to maintain credibility, stay with the facts and compare them to known requirements or acceptable limits would be my recommendation.  One needs to be very specific and factual.

what is your motivation for being here? Is it mature?

I happened along and noticed a flag being raised when it was mentioned that a person was fired which left a void to be filled.  I have worked these issues many times to help businesses get back on track.
Helping out is typically considered mature.




[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-29 20:53 ]

[RobertBruce]

Well now lets see....

Well you quoted requirements for a nurse, great lets go back to our problem statement again:

?It has been confirmed that Tracey Kimbrell, the school nurse LPN was fired last Friday..Maybe
parents should look into who is going to be distributing the 'correct' psychotropic drugs to your children.?

It doesn?t say she is acting as a nurse, just dispensing drugs. Again do we know this is a violation? Local schools do it, our pharmacy does it. Where are the requirements?

You keep going off topic.

There's you just a short time ago.

Yet here's you again suffering from an apparent memory lapse.

Well lets take another look, yes earlier on, when we were discussing ?Debbie? handing out meds with no experience a pharmacy. As we collected more information we concluded that HLA was in line with the states requirements and after the nurse was fired they fell below state expectations but where still as good as 75% of the schools in the state. There were no comparisons to pharmacies, please keep up (or read the posts for comprehension)

See there you compared HLA's practices with that of local schools or a pharmacy. Even though its been established the two have vastly different policies. I told you to ask if you need help, theres really no shame in it.

This exactly why they need an interim plan or process. Back up doctor in the area etc. What is standard procedure? What do other programs/schools do ? There must be many other schools who have faced the same problem. Again this isn?t unique.

Fine but right now there is no interm plan. They have no medical staff whatsoever, no in house doctor visits, and an untrained phone girl playing nurse. How is this safe?

[Deborah]

Who, in case you're under some illusion that your professional skills have somehow solved the single pressing issue at HLA... this is not about one employee being fired. This "nurse/meds" issue is but one piece, comparatively insignificant piece, in a much larger puzzle that has been coming together for a few months.
Numerous (15-20% reportedly) staff have been fired or resigned. Key staff, including the man who has been there since day one. Search "Poole" and have a read.
When you look at the big picture, it's significantly more than, "Opps, lost a nurse, need to replace her." Your professional skills and six pages of dialogue was not necessary to address the flag that was raised, or "get us back on track".

[TheWho]

What you are missing is the state did not include pharmacies in their study.  We discussed pharmacies early on as an example, but Deborah data links did not include any reference to pharmacies  Take another look:

 From Deborahs post:

Update:
Georgia
Education Rule 160-4-8-.01 (2000) requires each school system to develop a Student Services Plan that provides guidelines for its various components including school health services. The state's School Health Nurse Resource Manual provides suggested models for each school system to implement the rule. Each model includes administration of medication as a school nurse function.
http://www.healthinschools.org/sh/mgmtpolicies.asp

Pertinent to this discussion:
Seventy-five percent of reporting nurses in the 2000 study delegated medication administration to unlicensed assistive personnel (UAPs), with secretaries (66 percent) being the most common. Errors in administering medications were reported by nearly 50 percent of the school nurses, the most common error being missed doses (79 percent). Errors were commonly reported to local school and/or state authorities.
Faced with the growing problem of exposure to liability in conjunction with the administration of medicine (and in many circumstances, the administration of controlled substances), schools have mobilized over the years and demanded both guidance and protection from liability by state legislatures. Not all states have addressed the issue at the state level, and persons needing information are best advised to start with their local school districts.

The study does not provide information on pharmacies in this study.  So we need to draw our conclusions based on the comparison to other schools which we have done.   Go thru the post again and you will see the progression.  We cannot use the pharmacy comparison at this level

Fine but right now there is no interm plan. They have no medical staff whatsoever, no in house doctor visits, and an untrained phone girl playing nurse. How is this safe?

We don?t know this, I believe you are speculating.  Again to maintain credibility I want you to provide facts.  This what is hurting you, you jumped to conclusions with the dispensing of meds issue and it burned you and now you are doing it again.

[RobertBruce]

Hmmm... Okay

Im glad weve reached a consensus that you are often picked on.

I would view that as a problem if they did not plan to hire another medical person.

Well then you may have a problem.

A very good way to accomplish your goal is to maintain credibility, stay with the facts and compare them to known requirements or acceptable limits would be my recommendation. One needs to be very specific and factual.

Oh I do all that and more pops. You still seem to be confused on the matter of credibility with you being a concern. The people who come to this site seeking the truth and the people working to force the truth to light hold my credibility to be just fine. Its only the people who want to hide the truth or are unwilling to hear it that have a problem, the funny thing is thats both expected and the point.

I happened along and noticed a flag being raised when it was mentioned that a person was fired which left a void to be filled. I have worked these issues many times to help businesses get back on track.
Helping out is typically considered mature.

I see. Now let me ask you, did anyone ask you for help? Has HLA contacted you for assistiance? If not than you should know in many places adding your unsolicited advice on a matter you know nothing about isnt considered helpful, its considered rude and nosy. Not mature at all.

[TheWho]

Now let me ask you, did anyone ask you for help? Has HLA contacted you for assistiance? If not than you should know in many places adding your unsolicited advice on a matter you know nothing about isnt considered helpful, its considered rude and nosy. Not mature at all.

I am happy we can end the night on a smile.  I am sure HLA?s invitation is in the mail, did you get yours yet?

Have a good night

[RobertBruce]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 What you are missing is the state did not include pharmacies in their study. We discussed pharmacies early on as an example, but Deborah data links did not include any reference to pharmacies Take another look:

From Deborahs post:

Update:
Georgia
Education Rule 160-4-8-.01 (2000) requires each school system to develop a Student Services Plan that provides guidelines for its various components including school health services. The state's School Health Nurse Resource Manual provides suggested models for each school system to implement the rule. Each model includes administration of medication as a school nurse function.
http://www.healthinschools.org/sh/mgmtpolicies.asp

Pertinent to this discussion:
Seventy-five percent of reporting nurses in the 2000 study delegated medication administration to unlicensed assistive personnel (UAPs), with secretaries (66 percent) being the most common. Errors in administering medications were reported by nearly 50 percent of the school nurses, the most common error being missed doses (79 percent). Errors were commonly reported to local school and/or state authorities.
Faced with the growing problem of exposure to liability in conjunction with the administration of medicine (and in many circumstances, the administration of controlled substances), schools have mobilized over the years and demanded both guidance and protection from liability by state legislatures. Not all states have addressed the issue at the state level, and persons needing information are best advised to start with their local school districts.

The study does not provide information on pharmacies in this study. So we need to draw our conclusions based on the comparison to other schools which we have done. Go thru the post again and you will see the progression. We cannot use the pharmacy comparison at this level

If thats the case then I have no idea why you brought the issue up or made the comparison to begin with. Youre getting upset because you were made to look stupid, I would have figured you'd be used to it by now.

We don?t know this,

See here you assume that you and I are privy to the same information. You are wrong, I know a great deal more about the situation than you do. A point Ive been beating into your head all along, you just havent gotten it yet. You should have said "I dont know this, "

I believe you are speculating

You may believe whatever you like, it in no way changes the facts.

Again to maintain credibility I want you to provide facts

You are again confused in thinking anyone cares how credible you believe them to be. When are you going to accept the fact that you know nothing on this issue, thus you are not a person that needs to be won over. On top of the fact that you were to stupid to recognize that facts placed in front of you on this very matter only further illustrates how unimportant you are. Rehash your argument again Ill just shoot it down a second time.

This what is hurting you, you jumped to conclusions with the dispensing of meds issue and it burned you and now you are doing it again.

I didnt jump to any concluscions. I proved that an unqualified person was dispensing meds. I provided the regs which determine who is qualified to dispense meds. I explained how the students were in danger, I evn eshot down your comparrison between public schools in similar situations and pharmacies. Sorry pops you havent burned me, youve just been emphatic on points and refused to answer questions that paint you into a corner.

[RobertBruce]

I am happy we can end the night on a smile. I am sure HLA?s invitation is in the mail, did you get yours yet?

Have a good night

Oh ive been smiling all night, I usually do that when I laugh. At you that is, watching you try desperatly to convince others you really are as important and itelligent as you think you are. Jumping through all my hoops, biting every time I baited you, and dodging every question you couldnt handle. As to this invite I have no clue what youre babeling about nor do I care. Now I will be out of town on business for the next few days and will not have time to check in on you. Dont worry though there are plenty of other to make you look dumb. So while Im gone see if you cabt abswer all the remaining questions put to you. I doubt it but maybe you'll surprise me.

Take care now. I'll be back in a few days.

 :wave:

[SHH]

Assuming some staff dont have all their credentials listed on the website, how do we REALLY know she isnt qualified? I think the only staff with credentials listed on the website are counselors and teachers and upper management. Maybe she has CPR training...maybe she was a nurse's assistant at a previous employer. Does anybody REALLY know? I know Robert THINKS he knows based on what the website says. But does anybody know for sure?