Author Topic: KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words  (Read 17015 times)

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« on: April 17, 2006, 10:26:00 AM »
If you are here to learn more about the infamous Fornits troll "KareninDallas" (KiD) you have come to the right place! These posts were copied from another forum where Karen posts under the name as KarenInDallas. No quote tags because it makes it harder to read. Enjoy!
 
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I went to large state U (Indiana), which was out of state for me. I chose it because I was a music major. Well, turned out the music school was too good for MY level of talent! I wound up majoring in business and going to a top law school (Chicago). In retrospect, I did not have enough "like minded peers" at Indiana. I enjoyed many things about my years there, but academically I would have been happier and more challenged at a smaller university or LAC. I did develop a passion for college basketball, which, believe it or not, has served me very well in the business world. (Lesson to all you smart kids out there- don't underestimate things like that.)
My problem is as I tour colleges with kid #2, I love them all. I was the same way with kid #1. All in all, Stanford would be my dream school because of the top academics, athletics, climate and size of the school. I couldn't have gotten in back then, of course.
Karen

The kids who seemed to do the best, both socially and academically, at the boarding schools with which I have personal experience, are the kids who are pretty good at managing themselves. The kids have to be able to get themselves out of bed, manage their time, maintain some semblance of a nutrious diet etc. My daughter said she would NOT have wanted to spend more than the 2 years she did (junior and senior) at her boarding school. She loved the experience and it has served her well, but the communities are not very big, and it can all wear thin. (Especially true in the case of her school, which was populated by a bunch of temperamental musicians, dancers and actors!) Karen

Blair is about 75 minutes from New York City, but a lot of the boarders live in NYC or in that northern NJ area. Blair is at the edge of the Poconos near the Delaware Water Gap. I know Hun, Peddie and all the MAPL schools are wonderful.
One interesting point- our educational consultant recommended NOT entering Choate, Exeter et al as a junior. She said you are competing too much against your own classmates for the attention of the guidance counselors and those classmates have been there a couple more years and the faculty knows them a lot better. If you enter as a freshman, it's a whole different story, of course.
My son actually had to drop back and do another junior year to enter Blair. They wanted him for 2 years. So-we get to pay for yet another year of education. It has turned out to be a good thing for him. He is very mature since he is a year older than many of his classmates, and it really benefits him athletically. There were plenty of interesting courses for him to take. Blair is a wrestling powerhouse, and my son's roommate (also a new junior this year) was the national champion in his weight class last year. It is neat to see these dedicated athletes who sacrifice a lot of personal time and even vacations to train at such an elite level. K.

I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school. My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her. I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options. The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school. He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us! The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends. I love it so much- I wish I could be there! I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen

Dallas, TX (transplant from the NE many years ago)
S in boarding school in NE

Have any of you had to deal with some major "blips" in your educational path? My son got kicked out of a disastrous boarding school in March of his soph year do to a combination of factors- some his issues, some the school's. None of the issues were academic. He spent a year in a very structured boarding school with good academics and a strong support system and was admitted to a top prep boarding school in the NE where he is doing a 2nd junior year and will do a senior year. His academics were strong throughout all this upheaval. His emotional growth has been impressive, and he is regarded as a mature young man and a strong contributor to his current school. He is also likely to be a recruited runner which he will use to help him get an edge for some top schools. Everyone on this board seems so exceptional- any situations similar to ours? Thanks. Karen

Now THERE's a good question..... In the modern corporate environment, no one is assured of continued employment. Companies are bought and sold, and the legal staffs can change just as the rest of the executive team can. A smart, young lawyer usually doesn't have much trouble finding employment. It gets a little harder for smart OLD lawyers! An in-house counsel develops areas of expertise, just as a lawyer in a firm does. Some companies divide the legal department up by functional areas- i.e labor, contracts, acquisitions etc. My current company just has me and a paralegal. We outsource a lot. Some companies need a bunch of patent lawyers. If you have expertise in engineering and a law degree, there is never a problem getting a job as a patent lawyer.

There are a number of in-house positions available most of the time. Seems like a lot of the ads want 3-5 years experience. I have been practicing a long time, but my advice to a new law grad would be to get two or three years experience in a law firm and then go in-house. That is NOT what I did. I went in-house right out of law school, which was very unusual "back in the day". Check out monster.com to get some idea of what law-jobs are out there. In-house jobs don't pay as much, by the way (unless you are General Counsel of IBM or something). Karen

I am General Counsel for a corporation. I consider myself an "in-house" lawyer. In fact, I HATE corporate practice, which I consider to be SEC, corporate governance and maybe mergers and acquisitions. I handle employment issues, litigation, contracts, and whatever else comes up. I think an in-house lawyer is the "country doctor" of the legal world. You have to know enough about every area of law to know when to call in the specialists.
I was a business (marketing) major with a minor in economics. I went to a large state university undergrad and a top 3 law school. Everything I needed to know to do my job- and I have always worked in-house- I managed to pick up somewhere along the way!
Karen

My son is in a prep school in NJ (1st year junior) and also attended a boarding school in Texas. The NJ school is perfect for him. I am a big proponent of boarding schools for kids who are independent and can manage themselves fairly well. While the environment is somewhat structured, there is a lot of responsibility placed on the students to get themselves to class, do their homework, take care of their laundry etc. Whenever we visit our son, I am grateful that he has the opportunity to attend this school- for its academics, athletics and nurturing faculty and staff. My daugher attended a boarding school in Michigan and had an equally great experience. Good luck and let us know where you wind up. Karen


I wouldn't worry about NEXT summer now! Let him go to camp this summer. He will be growing and changing a lot in the next year- he may have a whole different agenda by next fall. Several of the bright, talented 9th graders around here wound up getting kicked out of school for drinking in 10th grade. Not that your son will do that, but you are getting way ahead of yourself.
If going to camp instead of to an academic or music program hurts his college chances 3 years from now, we all need to re-evaluate things. While I love the information on this board, I think it is easy to lose sight of reality. These are KIDS!


Everyone has different likes and dislikes (otherwise our kids would all want to go to the same school!), but I don't care for Waco, Texas. That could be because it isn't too far from home, but I view it as a place for people from Dallas and Austin to make a gas stop. There are many kids at Baylor who love it. I find the administration and the Baptist tradition too conservative for my tastes, and I am conservative anyway! I am not impressed with the handling of the basketball fiasco last year (the murder etc.) My son has a friend there now (freshman) and she is doing OK, but is not thrilled with Baylor. These are just my views, and there are lots of Texans and others who think Baylor is wonderful. My daughter is at Rice (sophomore) and we think Rice is perfect! Son (hs junior) will only consider UT of all the Texas schools, but will probably wind up staying in the east where he goes to boarding school. Hope this helps a little.

Given your daughter's obviously strong academic record, I would certainly favor UT over Baylor, unless the size is a problem. That said, the main reason to look further is if she wanted to see what a small LAC "felt like" or a smaller highly selective university. You can't visit every school in the country, and there is not just ONE right fit. UT is in a class by itself in many ways, so it is easy to contrast it with almost anything else! Perhaps a visit to an Ivy or one of the strong LACs closer to home? Then she can do a few more applications if she wants and worry about visiting if and when she is accepted in the spring. Karen

You still haven't heard from Plan II, right? That would be sufficient challenge. As a parent, I think I would encourage your daughter to at least apply to one or two of the very selective schools, so that when the spring comes she wll have a choice. A lot can happen to her thinking between now and then. Karen

One more question- in my son's case, the explanation of what happened and the demonstration of what he learned and how he has moved forward will take more than a paragraph. In fact, it winds up being 2 pages and anything less really hurts the discussion. Will this lengthy explanation (which really amounts to a very effective essay) be considered a negative? I know it is a little bit of a risk, but giving a less than complete explanation seems more risky. Thanks. Karen

Sounds like there are some runners posting in this thread. Can someone give me an idea of what male and female CC and mile times Princeton looks for in recruiting? Assuming strong academics, too, of course. Thanks a lot. Karen

I'm fairly new- does anyone know if there is a thread on the old board about comparison of PSAT scores to eventual SAT scores? Are PSAT scores really a good predictor? Karen

We live in Texas but my son goes to boarding school in the NE. He will not be counted in the automatic 10% for Texas residents, even if he is 10% at his boarding school (which doesn't rank anyway). However, I suspect his scores/grades will be sufficient, coupled with in-state status, for him to be admitted. We can't count on it as a safety, though. Both Texas and A&M are NOT safety schools for Texans anymore. Many are turning to CU-Boulder as a safety. Karen

Thanks so much for all the comments and advice. My son's issue was not drugs or weapons, so I feel better about that. I really think the situation can be used to his advantage, but there is no doubt that it will turn off a school or two. The expulsion happened in March '03 and high school graduation will be in May '06. The NE prep school (and a few others) were willing to admit him, so hopefully the colleges will be..... Never easy! Karen

Have any of you had to deal with some major "blips" in your educational path? My son got kicked out of a disastrous boarding school in March of his soph year do to a combination of factors- some his issues, some the school's. None of the issues were academic. He spent a year in a very structured boarding school with good academics and a strong support system and was admitted to a top prep boarding school in the NE where he is doing a 2nd junior year and will do a senior year. His academics were strong throughout all this upheaval. His emotional growth has been impressive, and he is regarded as a mature young man and a strong contributor to his current school. He is also likely to be a recruited runner which he will use to help him get an edge for some top schools. Everyone on this board seems so exceptional- any situations similar to ours? Thanks. Karen

If you are considering a PG year at a prep school, there are a lot of excellent programs. The PG kids at my son's boarding school are using the year to mature academically and/or athletically. They are an important part of the school community and seem to love the PG program. I did not know until my son started at this school this fall(he is a junior) what a big deal the PG programs are. I think it is a great idea for a younger student or any student who wants to shore up academics or sports. The negative is that you get to pay for it! Karen

Webb is a strong prep school but not as well-known as the NE schools. Educational consultants are very high on it. It is a fairly small school and has a good community. It is highly regarded and will be viewed favorably by an admissions committee.

I know a kid who got kicked out of his prep boarding school a week before graduation last year. His grades weren't so hot, either. He had been admitted to a good LAC (not one of the very top ones) for a January 2005 matriculation. He had completed his requirements for high school, but he had to write to the college explaining that he would not have a diploma until he completed a year of college (the prep school's ruling) and that he had been kicked out. They, miraculously, did not revoke his acceptance and he starts next week!

We recently received grades, teacher comments and an advisor letter for my son from his boarding school. I am so grateful that we have found this wonderful environment for our son to learn and pursue his athletics. He is a junior, and this is his first year at this particular school. The mentoring he is getting from his advisor and other faculty members, the bond he has formed with his roommate (also a talented athlete and student) and the exposure to kids from varied backgrounds is worth the financial sacrifice our family is making. There are some factors unique to our son which led us in this direction (including some bridges he managed to burn.....). However, both the boarding school (Interlochen) which my daughter attended for two years and my son's school are filled with courteous kids who appreciate what they are being given. I have attended athletic events and other school functions this past semester whenever possible (we are in Texas, son is on east coast) and the kids we have met are wonderful. It is certainly the right thing for us!
Karn

Thanks, Northstarmom, that's what we're hoping. His scores should be well above 1300, based on the practice test he did at the beginning of the tutoring. I just get nervous seeing all these incredible statistics on this board and seeing so many kids STILL get deferred and rejected. It really is a lottery! K.

That's the point- he is willing to go above and beyond as far as his class work. He is interested and challenged and has always gotten good grades. He started a Friday night philosophy group at his boarding school. I guess I don't see where not wanting to prep for a standardized test makes him unfit for an Ivy. He needs "like minded peers" around him. This doesn't have to happen at an Ivy, and there are other schools on his list. Not wanting to prep just means he might not get in! But-if he runs fast enough he just might.......

On the SAT prep issue......my son, a hs junior, aspires to some highly selective schools. He is an athlete, and a lot will depend on where he is recruited. His SATs are not that strong compared to what I see on these boards. His school has the juniors take the January SAT (even though it is changing). He did 9 hours of private tutoring over this break, and felt it was helpful. However, he refused to take the practice SAT at the end- the one that shows how much you "improved" from the tutoring. He said he is through prepping. He hates the SAT and hates prepping. He would rather spend his time reading philosophy and good literature. His advisor at school, thinks the whole SAT thing is out of hand. He said no number on a test can capture the intellectual ability and curiousity of someone like my son. I felt that he should do a LOT more prep so that score wouldn't be such a weakness in his application. BUT-it is HIS college application process and not mine! So-maybe he will improve by May just from taking the test. He goes to a good academic boarding school (not one of the "top five") and he says the stories I tell him about the prep kids on this board do are absurd. His classmates are simply not doing this. Somehow they are getting into many fine colleges, including the Ivys. I just don't want him to miss out on a school he wants because he couldn't stand to prep for SAT!
K.

After many years of practicing law, I can tell you that there is no "best" law school. I graduated from Chicago, and it STILL opens doors for me. However, living here in Texas, UT is really the "better" law school. The network that the grads have formed and the respect for the degree eclipses the more prestigious schools. That is something to consider. Where do you want to live and practice? In Philadelphia, you can't beat Penn! In Michigan, go for Michigan!

I also work in house as General Counsel for a corporation. We refer to ourselves as the "country doctors" of the legal profession. We have to know a little bit about everything so that we know enough to call in the specialists when we need to. I have always worked in house- when I got out of law school back in the middle ages, this was not as common as it is now. I had an undergraduate business degree and really wanted to be a contributor to an ongoing business and feel like a part of management. This can occur as a private lawyer at a firm, but I wanted to be a company-person. Generally, the pay isn't as good but the hours aren't quite as long as the partner-track. It is not a piece of cake, however. With corporate greed what it has become, a General Counsel's job can be pretty stressful.
What I like is the variety of issues I handle every single day. I never know what is going to come up from one day to the next. I might have an employee with porn on his computer, a customer complaint, a class action lawsuit filed against us, a lease to review, etc. What I DON'T like is the way some companies view their legal departments. Sometimes the lawyers are well-respected and considered an integral part of any decision. At other companies the legal department is viewed as a pain in the a-- and an obstacle to getting business done.
My advice to someone coming out of law school now would be to spend at least a few years at a good firm, even if you want to go in house later on. I often wish I had some law firm experience. I just didn't want to do it!
Karen

Check out the PG programs at Blair, Hill, Lawrenceville, Cushing, Williston etc. I know several PGs in the northeast. Some kids go for athletics- get a year of growing and polishing up the academics. The PGs fit in well and are treated like seniors

I appreciate all the posts and the experiences shared. I, too, will second that there are more than a FEW great boarding schools. We did quite an extensive search for S, and found many, many fantastic schools- big, small, rural, city, single-sex, etc. There are a lot of kids interested in this experience, and, while, there are some which are not acceptable, there are many, many which provide top academics, nurturing and many valuable experiences. Karen

I was looking at a music business major "back in the day". The strongest program was at University of Miami. I briefly checked their website just now and it looks like they still have a lot of options for combining music with various business disciplines. K.

I don't think you "decide" the way you are suggesting. Circumstances change and kids change. If you asked me when my D was 14 if I would send her to boarding school at 16, I would have told you "No Way". But when she was unhappy in her elite private day school at the end of her sophomore year and it was suggested to us that we look at Interlochen for her, I was open to the idea. It took visiting the school and seeing that there was a totally different option for her- one that we had never considered.
To tell you the truth, it is not all that easy having my son home for Christmas break! I worry every time he is out with the car. When he is away at school he isn't driving and his day seems very orderly. I am glad to see him, of course, but I seem to sleep a little better when he is at school.
When you send a kid to boarding school, you aren't banishing them from your household. They are home all summer (or a lot of the summer) and the breaks tend to be longer than what public schools have. You can go visit and attend parents' weekend, athletic events etc. I talk to my son almost every day (probably more than he would like) and we chat online. He is not the type of kid who would sit by our side every evening if he were home.
It is just one option and one choice.
Karen

I think there is some stereotyping going on here. There are all kinds of boarding schools. While the top 5 are wonderful schools, there are many more with very different atmospheres. At St. Stephen's in Austin, the kids wear flip flops to class and never touch a tie.
At my son's current school, I get a feeling of real nurturing and passion for the education and emotional growth of the kids
Karen

I have never regretted sending my kids to boarding school. My daughter went as a junior so that she could have specialized training in music. She needed to be with "like-minded peers", as we say on this board. I missed her, but it was the right thing for her. I was able to nurture her from afar and by the time she was 16 there wasn't a lot of day to day nurturing going on in our home anyway!
Our public school system is awful, and for various reasons (some his fault and some not) our son exhausted the private school options. The "rich kid" mentality was actually stronger here in our private day schools than it was in his boarding school. He seemed to take "nurturing" better from his advisors at the boarding school than he did from us! The athletic opportunities for him were much better at the boarding school he now attends. I love it so much- I wish I could be there! I miss him and I miss being more involved in "high school life", but this is the way things have worked out for our family.
It IS a very individual decision. Most of the boarding parents I have met are deeply involved with their kids and very supportive of the school.
Karen

At the "Welcome" meeting for parents at the beginning of my son's school year this past September the headmaster said that the composition of the student body at most boarding schools has changed. He said it is almost entirely kids who WANT to be there. In the past there were many more of what you described- kids who had been sent away or whose parents made the decision. With the social and substance abuse issues in many of even our best public schools, many kids ask for a change in environment. There are definitely some of the same problems at boarding schools- there were many instances of drug and alcohol abuse at one of my son's previous boarding schools. If you go to visit some schools, maybe you will come upon one that makes you feel so comfortable you would turn your kid over to them in a heartbeat. I honestly feel that where my son is now provides so much that he wouldn't get here at home. He is enjoying some weekend excursions into New York City, his athletic coaching and competition is beyond what he has ever had, and he has the utmost respect for every one of his teachers (something that has not been the case in the past). It really is a different world and I do miss him. His coach is also his advisor and history teacher, and emails me frequently to report on successes and news. My son gets up in the morning and runs to his physics teacher's house. The teacher drives him back to campus after stopping at the market so my son can buy a Wall Street Journal. Something about that strikes me as really neat. Karen

The kids who seemed to do the best, both socially and academically, at the boarding schools with which I have personal experience, are the kids who are pretty good at managing themselves. The kids have to be able to get themselves out of bed, manage their time, maintain some semblance of a nutrious diet etc. My daughter said she would NOT have wanted to spend more than the 2 years she did (junior and senior) at her boarding school. She loved the experience and it has served her well, but the communities are not very big, and it can all wear thin. (Especially true in the case of her school, which was populated by a bunch of temperamental musicians, dancers and actors!) Karen

I sent you a PM. I have a lot of experience with boarding schools- mostly good. Important to watch for ration of day to boarding students. You don't have to have 100% boarding, but I wanted at least 70%. Otherwise, the campus empties out on weekends and the community feel is missing.
Karen

I went to large state U (Indiana), which was out of state for me. I chose it because I was a music major. Well, turned out the music school was too good for MY level of talent! I wound up majoring in business and going to a top law school (Chicago). In retrospect, I did not have enough "like minded peers" at Indiana. I enjoyed many things about my years there, but academically I would have been happier and more challenged at a smaller university or LAC. I did develop a passion for college basketball, which, believe it or not, has served me very well in the business world. (Lesson to all you smart kids out there- don't underestimate things like that.)
My problem is as I tour colleges with kid #2, I love them all. I was the same way with kid #1. All in all, Stanford would be my dream school because of the top academics, athletics, climate and size of the school. I couldn't have gotten in back then, of course.
Karen

Dallas, TX (transplant from the NE many years ago)
S in boarding school in NE

If the ticket will be completely dismissed, I would not mention it. (a lawyer speaking) Karen


What an interesting question! I think a lot of things contributed to the academic ambitions of my kids (D soph at Rice, S hs junior at boarding school). My husband and I used a lot of financial resources to make sure the kids had the best possible education. Our public schools are very poor, so the kids went to private school and then boarding school. My husband has a PhD from large state university and my law degree is from a top 3 school (many years ago.....). Due to the personality traits that the kids inherited, we didn't have to do much to encourage good academic performance. If anything, we tried to tone things down since the schools seem to get outrageously competitive. We wanted out kids to have a life, and if that meant not attending an Ivy, that was fine. Turns out D wouldn't have touched an Ivy, but S has his sights on a few (hopefully, as a recruited athlete). Since I have discovered this board, I have become obsessed, and my new goal is to keep my obsessing AWAY from my son, who, fortunately, is tucked away in NJ at boarding school. I just want to make it clear to him that there is little room for error in the process- it will take a combination of top grades, top SATs, essays, recs etc. All his error occurred in 10th grade when he got to depart from a school...... I also want to make sure that he understands that there are LOTS of great schools and that he will wind up somewhere perfect for him. When we went through this process with D, I realized that the honors programs at the state universities were awesome and that her options were not limited to LACs. My son's boarding school strongly believes that the kids should be allowed to enjoy their high school experience and not be tortured with college admission issues until February junior year at the earliest. I'm wondering how I got through the process with my D with so little stressing. Karen

I know there is a lot of drinking at Rice. My D is a sophomore and does drink, but has always been responsible about alcohol. Rice has a liberal alcohol policy (which I support) which tends to keep the kids (and the alcohol) in the dorms and off the streets. I have to say, back "in the day" when I was at Large State University, drinking was a huge part of our life, too. It IS a concern, especially with the recent deaths (CU-Boulder) and abuses. Karen

A number of the applications ask specifically about suspensions or expulsions. We face this problem with my son (current hs junior). I was told that you should be completely honest because the information is likely to pop up somehow. If the incidents were minor, the adcoms don't really care. They are looking for drug-related offenses, academic dishonesty or violence.
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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2006, 10:39:00 AM »
This is the post where Karen coined the term "Fornitscators", if you were wondering where that came from.

Quote
I have a question for all you Fornitscators.
When IS it acceptable parenting to send a kid away? Is a normal college prep boarding school OK if the kid wants to go there? What about an 8 weeks summer program (music, camp, sports whatever)? What if the kid has a serious addiction? Is in-patient treatment like Betty Ford or Hazelden OK?
Or- are all these examples of letting someone else parent your kid? When you send a kid to a boarding school to give him or her a superior educational opportunity, you are turning over a lot of the responsibility for your child to the faculty and staff in charge. Is this a bad thing? So-if you know that your kid has a serious emotional problem, why are you a bad parent for putting him or her in an emotional growth program where intense therapy is offered?
I don't get where the line in drawn.



Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 220#120128
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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2006, 10:57:00 AM »
Quote
My son is in a prep school in NJ (1st year junior) and also attended a boarding school in Texas.

Why don't you mention Carlbrook by name?  Why don't you mention he was kicked out of the "alternative/behavior mod" "school"?  Not very proud of it?

And this...

Quote
My son got kicked out of a disastrous boarding school in March of his soph year do to a combination of factors- some his issues, some the school's. None of the issues were academic. He spent a year in a very structured boarding school with good academics and a strong support system and was admitted to a top prep boarding school in the NE where he is doing a 2nd junior year...


Just tell the truth for once, Karen.  It ain't that hard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2006, 10:59:00 AM »
Quote
A number of the applications ask specifically about suspensions or expulsions. We face this problem with my son (current hs junior). I was told that you should be completely honest because the information is likely to pop up somehow.


You're getting a free life lesson on the veracity of that opinion. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2006, 11:15:00 AM »
Some more Karen Klassics. These were posted as anon here at fornits.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =85#119240

Quote
I need to stop looking at this site because the rampant ignorance just upsets me. "Doing nothing" ceases to be an option at some point. Adults have the responsibility of caring for their kids-not to mention the fact that they LOVE them. Also, adults are responsible for the safety of others. Many of these kids were a threat to others, AND to the families in which they were living. Do you think the parents should just let the kids steal from them, wreck cars, drive while drunk or stoned.....?
These are simply not acceptable choices, and parents can not let their childen continue this conduct. Parents have jobs, other kids and assets that they need to protect. At some point, the teen needs to be safe and out of the household. That is when a placement is made. You guys just don't get it.


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And what are these other options? Once a family has exhausted therapy (these kids, by their own admission, can lie to and manipulate ANY therapist they are seeing once or twice a week), has no ability to impose consequences- what then, oh wise ones???

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I predict that within 6 months you will be sending your son to a program. You will not be able to manage him at home, and his drug use will greatly increase. Perhaps wilderness is not the right place due to his anxiety disorder, but there are very good reasons why the kids can only communicate by letter. The family dynamics are usually a big part of the underlying problem, and need to be removed from the equation before progress can be made.

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Parents- you would be better off getting advice from http://www.strugglingtrolls.com than from here. This site is a militaristic group of disgruntled teens and young adults (with a few disgruntled adults thrown in who can't get past their teens) and the advice is not reliable.

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Now THAT is a fine example of maturity and helpful input, Dysfunction Junction. I guess you didn't stick with your therapy!

The parents on strugglingteens have not "given up" on their kids. To the contrary, they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice- sending their child away from home for help.
You people over here will never "get it" and are accomplishing nothing. I don't think you understand how truly in the minority you are, and how very few abuses really have occurred. Hell, the Catholic church has a much bigger problem than the teen help industry. MOST of these programs are run by people who are properly trained and educated and have started the programs because they sincerely want to help these families and teens.
Parents- if you have questions on specific programs, post on strugglingtrolls and you will get honest and thorough responses- from people who actually can construct a sentence.

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We actually made the initial choice without an EdCon (after research). The programs we picked were excellent and no one profited at all from our decision. When we did bring in a local EdCon, we paid her a very low flat fee. She also helped us with choices of future schools and colleges.
Our kid was very angry initially, but got a lot out of both programs, by his own admission. So-sorry-we are one of the success stories, of which there are many.
It is really sad that some of you have so much anger and are unwilling to understand that for most of these kids, program placement is the right thing. I agree that there are exceptions, but your ignorance and anger are clouding what is left of your brain.

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My child did not sacrifice his childhood, his safety OR his health. In fact, we sent him to the program so he would BE safe, and he was. His nutrition was better, he was away from drugs and alcohol and he was healthy. He did give up a year of his life to mature and gain perspective- I wouldn't refer to that year as part of "childhood". Giving an angry, at-risk teenager the chance to turn his life around doesn't seem like such a sacrifice. Yep-he lost the ability to steal things, hurt other people, ruin his future, destroy his family.....what a terrible sacrifice he made.

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Uh-what you are saying bears absolutely no resemblance to the programs my son attended. I don't know where you are dreaming up all this crap, but maybe you should check out some of the programs the parents are actually sending kids to! Many of the TBSs are very similar to prep boarding schools, but with many more restrictions and lots of therapy.
Do you really think we, as parents, are stupid enough to just hand our kids over without knowing a lot about these programs and others who have been through them? Do you really think our kids are two year olds who can not communicate abuse to us? Many of our kids have been home for a year or two now, and we have NO reports of any abuse. Yep-there were lots of consequences for breaking rules. Some of these seemed silly. Lessons were learned from most of them. These are kids who are now in college, in many cases. It hink they could figure out if they had been abused.
You are a moron.

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OK- I get it. You weren't ever in therapy. It's all clear now. I want you to be! Yep, we failed as parents. I'll admit that. It's a tough job these days. I did many things wrong as a parent. I set a bad example, I raged, I spent too much time at my job. Having failed, we turned to professional help for our kid and ourselves. It worked. My kid is doing great. He isn't wasting his time moaning and groaning about losing a year of his life. He's taken some of the tools and moved on. I guess you don't believe in seeking professional medical care, either.

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There have been just a FEW tragic incidents- just as there are with day care facilities, elder-care facilities etc. There have been a few programs that were more boot-camp than psychiatric in nature. Many on this board have taken these few incidents as an indictment against ALL programs. Most of the wilderness programs, emotional growth schools and substance abuse treatment facilities have caring staff with much expertise in the field. The leaders of many of the programs are passionate about helping teens. Yes, rules are strictly enforced. Yes, privileges have to be earned. The teens that are sent to these programs are not just coming in after curfew or smoking a few joints- they are engaging in behavior dangerous to themselves and others. They have, in many cases, been arrested. They have exhibited extreme violence towards their parents and siblings. The parents have exhausted all avenues- and I do mean ALL avenues. While the kids are at a wilderness program or therapeutic boarding school, the parents are working closely with the psychologist (a licensed person, in the case of all reputable programs) to examine family dynamics and how they can improve their relationship with their son or daughter. Painful disclosures might be made by the parents and the teens. Usually the teen admits to behavior way beyond what the parents had suspected.
These programs are not punitive. They are therapeutic. The therapists we worked with while our kid was in programs were the brightest and most gifted men and women I have ever met. Our kid would agree. Did he hate being at the program? Absolutely. Did he realize pretty quickly that his own conduct got him there? Yes. Did he come out a better person? No question.

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Overlordd, the little I can understand of your totally horrible writing re-emphasizes that you have no clue about the MAJORITY of these programs. You have been told over and over again over on the other board that your arguments are weak- not to mention incoherent.
The good programs are not punitive and have impeccable safety records.
Get over it.

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Of course these kids don't want to go on a "dangerous and exciting wilderness adventure". They want to stay home and get stoned, skip school and have sex. It is ethically just find to force them to go. They can choose whether or not to talk to the therapists. They figure out soon enough that things will progress better for them if they do.
By the way, I think Mose is a woman.

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Don't think we were "stupid, lazy and cruel", but do agree that the family dynamics had failed. However, the teen needed to take ownership of his role in that failure- lying, stealing,drinking, wrecking cars, selling pot, not going to school..... During wilderness (he liked the hiking, by the way) he did take ownership of those things.
Do you really consider sending a teen to a therapeutic program for a year or two "paying someone else to raise your child"? These "children" have become a threat to themselves and others. I still haven't heard any wisdom from you morons on a better way to address this. Let them go to jail? Let them have a fatal car accident? Let them destroy their home?

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God- why didn't I think of THAT? Damn. I should have ASKED my teen why he did the things he did! Yeah, I just gave up when things got "a little rough"- when he was in the ER after yet another overturned car. H E L L O, idiots! We did EVERYTHING possible.

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Yep, Deb. You are a piece of work. The parenting expert!! I now remember-your axe to grind is that you didn't get to make the decisions about your kids. So-those of us who had the ability to make choices are bad parents!

We tend to speak in the third person to emphasize that we are not just speaking of our own kids, but those of many of us caring parents on the strugglingteens board.

I noticed on the Island View thread that a number of former teens believe Island View saved their lives. They are saying this here on THIS FORUM. Whoops-don't they know that this is only for people wanting to bash programs!

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You are so full of shit. I hope you never have kids, because you would be literally shocked to death at how your fairy tale version of the "right things to do" can turn out. Do you think these parents didn't do many of these things? It ain't that easy, moron.

Overlordd- I'm disappointed in your rant. You were beginning to make some friends over on the other site. All that will be destroyed now with your immature swearing and anger. Too bad I can't post it over there- but it is too ridiculous to be appropriate.

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Funny in a sort of horrible way like when I heard Charles Manson on some documentary---his interview conversation just sort of drifted from fairly normal into a psychotic rant over just a few minutes. Overall his use of language and his omission of nasty-speak was a step up from Overlordd though

Your "friends" over at ST: get a clue Overlordd---they think you're a joke over there too, it's called "humoring the crazy person"

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This has become just a bunch of name calling. No one can judge someone's parenting ability from a few posts OR by the fact that they sent a kid to an emotional growth program. You seem to think you have all the answers, when, in fact, you are operating from one sole, erroneous premise- no teen should be sent to a program. It happens that my teen is doing quite well since he left his program and would never waste his time on a board like this. This has become annoying and pointless- sort of like playing a tennis match with a blind person.

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Where's Devlin been through all this? Did he exhaust his reportoire of 3 words?

Good post below- of course none of us are qualified to know anything about parenting and none of the teens can possibly be right if they think they needed the program to which they were sent.

While falling over and throwing up isn't ideal, it sounds very similar to many athletic events in which many of us participate! I have seen a lot of pride on the faces of young people coming out of wilderness programs. In many ways, they have accomplished things they have never had an opportunity to accomplish before. Being pushed and stretched- by TRAINED staff- is not a bad thing.

But-what do I know? We all should defer to the Gods of Fornitcation or whatever this pathetic site is.

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What were you thinking, Dou---did you really think that you were the best authority on your own experience and what it meant to you?

Don't you realize that you have to clear your interpretations about your life with all-knowing people at this forum.

You may BELIEVE that your program helped you---but only truly objective and rational types, with no ax to grind---like maybe Antigen or Deborah---can really tell you what your program was about and what effects it actually had on you

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Oh boy, that last post was a great example of insightfulness and biting humor combined(the emotocons add a nice touch for those who have a hard time with both ideas and words).

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"advice is not reliable" does not equate to "stories are not true". Deborah, you've killed whatever brain cells you might have once had.

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I've looked at her posts, folks and there is absolutely no proof that Deborah ever had any brain cells!

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Deborah, you brilliant psychologist you- anger is driven by some other emotion. It isn't a matter of not "tolerating" anger. It is a matter of getting at the root cause of that anger- whether it be fear, hurt, frustration..... Usually this requires quite a bit of therapy and a willingness to dig deep inside. These programs seem to cultivate that willingness to dig- peer pressure helps with this. No, it isn't always pretty, but it is necessary to wade through some pain to get to the other side.

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Deborah- you are a master at twisting words and sticking to your one-track agenda. You really must be super-parent, because according to you, there is an entire industry that is completely unneccessary. Do you think parents WANT to send their kids away and spend $60K a year? Do you think it is something parents take pride in doing? The reason the kids are sent to EG programs is because the parents can no longer help the kids. The part you still don't get is that the parents have tried everything.
I agree that there are some bad programs and there have been some abuses. There are also excellent programs which have helped many kids.
Your personal frustration and control issues are coming through loud and clear, and I'm sorry you didn't agree with the placement of your kid.
My own kid came out of his program more committed to his academics and extra-curricular activities than ever.

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No, you're wrong Overlordd, because Three Springs Waygookin is not a great author in history. He/she/it is an angry poster with a lot of unresolved hate for parents of kids in trouble, and the posting was offensive.

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I don't care to name the programs my son attended. I have provided this information privately to posters on the strugglingtrolls site. I wish to remain anonymous on this site because I have been the target of hateful emails in the past. I also wish to protect the identity of my son.
I will say that I know of at least 6 wilderness programs where there have been no reports of any abuse and both parents and teens felt the programs were life-changing and worth every penny and day spent. Do you think the program in Shouting at the Sky is abusive? I have friends who have placed kids at Cascade in the past (before it went downhill) with great results for the teen and the family. The schools which sprung from Cascade, such as Carlbrook, have been praised by kids and family alike-even on THIS BOARD. I haven't heard anything about abuses at Oakley or Swift River, either.
Why am I here? I didn't even know about this site until Overlordd invaded our board. Having discovered it and how ugly the posters here are in responding to copied posts from the strugglingteens board, I felt that I should respond. When I see false things, I feel as though I should set the record straight for future parents who are doing research. I want to help other families who are facing a similar crisis to what mine faced.
As far as kicking my son out of the house- it was tempting. However, I saw too much potential in him. I chose to send him to a wilderness program and a TBS. I was not always a very good parent. Probably the best thing I have ever done for him was send him to wilderness. It was life-changing for him and for our family.
The problem with many of you regulars on this board is that you won't accept that many of these programs WORK and that what we are reporting is TRUE. That is a display of your immaturity and inability to dig out of your trench.

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I mentioned a number of good programs in my post. I have provided names privately to many people who have inquired. I know better than to do so publicly on this forum. Good try, but I'm not taking the bait.
Arguing with you Fornitscators is not that exciting-hate to tell you. It is very tedious and boring. I am here to counter your idiocy.

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Are you trying to say that Carlbrook and Swift River are bad, abusive programs? Yes, Carlbrook requires wilderness prior to enrollment. It does not have to be SUWS. Hidden Lake has its own captive wilderness program. These schools have strong academics, excellent therapists and are well-run and safe. Are there imperfections with the programs? Sure. Show me a school- any kind of school- that is perfect.
The young man who left Carlbrook at 18 (in your link) is but one voice. Do you really think he is representative?
I am not going to go into the licensing debate. There are many reasons why a business of ANY kind chooses to resist licensing requirements. I have been involved in these kind of disputes in totally unrelated industries. It does not mean that they have something to hide or want to run an abusive organization.

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By open do you mean you can use your full vocabulary of 4 letter words? That's the only open thing I see about this board.

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An "open" discussion, as in 'if you agree with us that all programs are abusive and they're all run by the spawn of Satan', welcome aboard. However, if you try to say that some programs are worthwhile, get ready for the namecalling and parent bashing.

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I have not been identified, but I feel sorry for the person you think I am.
What is the big deal about identifying people, anyway. It's not like YOU are brave enough to reveal your personal information. Who cares? It's a message forum. Do you really think you are all that important to the world?

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Nothing disrespectful there. The Fornits rep over at ST is the notoriously bad typing/spelling Overlordd, possibly not your shiniest example of literacy.

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Stepmom, this is not a board to find support or rational discussion of programs. The kids on this board are anti-program and think all parents who send their kids to a program are horrible people. I suggest you go to strugglingtrolls.com for support and better information.
These are bitter, angry young people who don't have a clue how hard it is to live with an angry, violent teenager.

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Stepmom- don't listen to that crap. I'm sure you abandoned your stepson at the slightest hint of trouble!! Strugglingteens is a group of mature parents who agonized over every step of the placement process and who love their kids very much. There are many success stories and lots of experience, strength and hope.

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Adults who manipulate to get what they want are called manipulative, just as kids are. Manipulation is an abuse of trust. I'm sure all of you on this board would be such wonderful parents (not that many of you have actually had that experience) that you would NEVER be manipulated by your child and would NEVER believe his or her lies. Sorry the rest of us are such sub-par parents.

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And, my brilliant Deborah, are you contending that these troubled teens are manipulative solely because their parents have taught them to be so?
You really have a high opinion of parents, don't you?
You are such an angry bitch.

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Yeah, the smart kids are onto something, Ginger. That's why they were stealing cars, doing drugs, blowing off their educations. Can't understand why we would want to redirect their efforts.

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The simple fact you generalize tens of thousands of teens shows your idiocy. You are gravely uninformed, and obvious unexperienced. Your hate for yourself shows quite clear, however.

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Many of these kids came from excellent private schools where the faculty was strong and the educational opportunities were top-notch. The kids, by their own admission (later) were throwing away promising futures. They were stealing cars- maybe the family's car-but taking cars without permission and without licenses in some cases. They were using and/or selling alcohol and drugs. They were violent towards family members. Gee-why would we lose faith in our kids?
Fast forward to post-program. Kid is back in a top high school and will head to a top college. Kid has matured. Kid treats family members with the expected amount of respect an 18 or 19 year old would show a parent (not a whole lot, but some). Kid is responsible about cars and activities. Kid has learned how to have healthier relationshps with friends and members of the opposite sex. Kid has better things to do than hang around on a website like this complaining about the program that kid knows saved his life.
Ginger- quit with the personal attacks. It gets old.

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Smearing an entire generation? I don't think so. I am commenting on what the kids in some of these programs have reported-in groups where I was present. There are many teens who manage to get through the tough years without the need for a residential program. However,there are some that need more therapeutic help and a safer, more controlled environment than can be provided at home.
As for the confessions- my kid never denied what he was doing. It wasn't a matter of confessing- it was pretty clear that he was doing these things. He will tell you today that he was not mature enough to handle the independence he insisted on having (and taking) for himself.
Ginger- we are truly sorry that you are bitter and angry and can't let go of your program experience. But that does not give you the right to put everyone else in the same boat.

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Actually, the program was quite strong academically and there was no set-backs in that area. Never was a social problem and there certainly is not post-program. There was plenty of interaction with peers at the program- most from similar backgrounds.
Kid was in program for 1 year- long enough to mature and learn to make better choices.
Do you really think that while kids are in these programs that the parents just enjoy a long vacation? A lot of therapeutic work is going on in the family- both in connection with the program and at home.
I can not emphasize enough to innocent parents who might stumble onto this thread while searching for help with their teens that these anti-program people who post here do not have even the slightest grasp of reality.

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There was a full school day at my son's program. AP courses were offered along with 4 foreign languages. There is documentation on the top colleges the kids who finished high school at the program went on to attend. Many of the kids at the program felt that the academics were TOO challenging. My son thought they were easy since he had been an A student at a top prep school (until he was kicked out). He became a strong reader while he was at his program- he read Shakespeare, philosophy- anything he could get his hands on from the school's library and what he asked us to send. It was one of his academic teachers at his program who suggested that he apply to elite boarding schools to continue his education. My son did not complete the EG program. He left to continue his education elsewhere. He didn't miss a beat academically. He is at the top of his class and heading for one of the top universities in the country next year.
Obviously there are many different types of EG programs. In our case it was imperative that the program had strong academics. It was also imperative that the counseling staff be good.
Do you not understand that for many families having the kid remain in the home is simply not an option? When the kid is violent and dangerous to himself and others and is truly ruining his or her life, a program is the only chance. Perhaps many of you were placed in bad programs. That does not mean that there are not good ones out there.

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Oh, good. Dysfunctional is back. How did we manage without his insightful comments. I think we should all go by the name Karen, since you idiots think only one person (the alleged Karen) opposes your one-trick show here.

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Shortbus- Deborah's whole gripe is that she was NOT the one who sent her kids away. She actually lost custody of them and it was her ex-husband (with custody) who sent them away. So, clearly, they were totally screwed up before they were removed from her. This is her whole agenda- she fights all programs because she has an axe to grind against her ex-husband. She HAS to say all programs are bad because that makes her ex-husband the bad guy who ruined her wonderful kids.

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Wrong on all fronts- I'm not Karen and I don't hate teenagers and especially not my kids.

I simply agree with the other Anon and ShortBus that it is ridiculous to take the position that all programs are bad. That simply isn't true. It is a shame Deborah's son had a bad experience at Hidden Lake (several years ago, I believe). Hidden Lake has been a good program for many kids- and has not been good for some kids. None of us want ANY teen to be in a bad or abusive program.
You lose all your credibility by condemning all EG programs across the board. You also lose credibility with the insane posters like Nihil and Dysfunctional. It really hurts your cause, if the cause truly is to expose and shut down abusive programs. It seems to me that the cause has become more simply to amuse yourselves all day on the internet.

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The troll isn't blathering. Losing custody is information Deborah shared with parents on the struggling teens board. She has also harassed parents on that board with emails and IM messages. I think she was banned from posting.




You are not very nice, Karen.
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Offline Troll Control

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2006, 11:25:00 AM »
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On 2006-04-17 07:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
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A number of the applications ask specifically about suspensions or expulsions. We face this problem with my son (current hs junior). I was told that you should be completely honest because the information is likely to pop up somehow.




You're getting a free life lesson on the veracity of that opinion. :lol:  :lol:  :lol: "


Oh, this is precious.  Came full-circle on you, huh, Karen?
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2006, 11:25:00 AM »
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Your "friends" over at ST: get a clue Overlordd---they think you're a joke over there too, it's called "humoring the crazy person"


OH- the irony, coming from you Karen.  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2006, 11:27:00 AM »
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And, my brilliant Deborah, are you contending that these troubled teens are manipulative solely because their parents have taught them to be so?
You really have a high opinion of parents, don't you?
You are such an angry bitch.


I think they call this "projecting".
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2006, 11:41:00 AM »
Keep your eyes peeled for Karen's posting style, and if you find any more Karen Klassics? post 'em up here. Those anon posts were just from one thread! Let's get the thread views up into the tens of thousands!!
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2006, 12:40:00 PM »
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2006, 01:00:00 PM »
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Lori, I'm so sorry. Yes, maybe the message he needs is that you have stopped caring [What better way to say 'I don't care about you' to your kid then sending him away?] . He isn't 18 yet, though. Not sure of your state's law, but you are probably still legally responsible for him.'

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I'm sorry about your job- I've been "idle" for a few months, too. This lawyer-stuff isn't so secure anymore.
Karen


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Your daughter's anger is very normal. [now an authority dispensing psychological advice] Think about it- she has gotten away with her behaviors for a long time and now you have taken extreme action. She will use every tool she has to hurt and scare you. Stay strong.
Karen

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Hiring escorts was one of the most "humane" things we ever did for our son. [speaks volumes - really it was best for you, not him] We had lost control [What good is it to have a kid you can't fully control, right?]. We could not possibly have gotten him to a program without him running from us and perhaps being lost to us forever. The compassionate, professional escorts we hired had an extremely difficult time transporting our son, but they never once gave up or abused him in any way, even when he nearly killed them and himself by grabbing the steering wheel of the car from the backseat. My son never questioned our use of escorts, even in his anger at being in wilderness and later at TBS. Today we are the proud parents of a student-athlete who is achieving his full potential.

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We didn't talk to our son for 7 or 8 weeks. We received and wrote weekly letters which were faxed in both directions. I think it is better for the kids- and the parents- NOT to speak. Obviously the dialogue at home was not productive, and that dynamic can interfere with the therapeutic process. The therapist at wilderness knew when the time was right for a short phone call.
We are ALL parents here, but sometimes removing yourself from the enmeshment is the best thing for all involved.

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Well- both of mine were screwed up.[surprise, surprise] Daughter acted "in" and handled her depression by cutting. We were able to treat her locally and a change in school environment helped a lot. She remained successful academically through the whole thing. Son acted "out" and required programs. Lots of their issues arose from our parenting, but not all. It is a tough time to be a teenager, and a tough time to be a parent.

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You guys forgot "spend too much"!
Even my wonderful, talented, brilliant 20 year old daughter who just finished a ministry discernment internship can be surly, self-centered and generally unpleasant. On occasion, I refer to her as "Reverend B----".


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Maybe there is something wrong with me, but I am just not that horrified by it. I DO worry about the effect on the kids, but to me it is better for the mass public to view than Survivor or Anna Nicole Smith et al. If some viewing parents see these teens and hear their behavior described and realize that their own teens are in desperate need of help, then the show will have done some good. ['good' like filling beds at RTC's] I meet many families who try to "stick it out" and think some of these really risky behaviors are "normal teen stuff". Maybe this show will wake some people up.

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Lori- good for you for getting him back to the RTC. I know it is hard, but what a relief for you to know that he is safe and working on his problem. My son told me that many, many of the kids from his TBS have fallen back into their old patterns. It is, unfortunately, very common,[What about that stellar success rate and the 100% of kids who enjoyed and valued the seminars? Maybe it doesn't work after all?] despite our best efforts as parents. Keep us posted on his progress.

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Overlordd, your credibility on this site is non-existent. Please go back to Dev-ville, or whereever you came from.
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Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2006, 02:30:00 PM »
This is TOO funny!  :nworthy:
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Offline OverLordd

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2006, 11:12:00 PM »
Oh god people, please... please just grow up, I mean honestly... have any of you even talked with her outside the forums?
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our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2006, 09:06:00 AM »
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have any of you even talked with her outside the forums?


It would seems so.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 435#180370
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KarenInDallas -- Fornits Troll -- in her own words
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2006, 02:24:00 PM »
Another quote:

Suze- you are full of s h_t. I notice you have quite a few posts, too- most of them obnoxious and negative, of course. I suspect most of the kids of the other CC parent-posters are every bit as independent and resourceful as my own.Karen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »