Author Topic: F---ed  (Read 8926 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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F---ed
« on: April 09, 2006, 10:55:00 PM »
Quote

What affects me the most was the complete dominance, the inability to speak your mind, to talk to parents, to do anything voluntarily... did anyone have a moment where it all came to you, meaning you thought to yourself, 'holy ---, i'm fd? As if something in you was being annihalted ...it's hard to explain any other way- I don't know any of you began to buy into the program at any time- but i just knew I was going have to try my best to internally comply to their empty words becuase if I showed any outward signs of dissent or anger I was questioning the program and that was a very bad thing...meaning you're f---d up. In other owrds, I had to see some value, believe their was some worth in what I was doing...I was desperate to belive with so I wouldn't go crazy... DOes that make any sense at all to anyone???
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2006, 11:27:00 PM »
makes perfect sense to me.  What doesn't make sense is why those words are quoted.  Does this come from somewhere else, or are these your words anon?
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Offline Anonymous

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F---ed
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2006, 09:23:00 PM »
That has been copied from another conversation. I wanted to see if anybody over here would understand it.
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Offline Anonymous

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F---ed
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2006, 10:48:00 PM »
You would have to be smoking the same stuff to understand it.  And, you would have to have had a sub-standard education.
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Offline Stripe

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F---ed
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 11:14:00 PM »
I don't know that a person would necessarily have to be smoking anything at all to get this.
It seems more like a reflection on self-preservation, or failure of self-preservation, if you will.

I going to take a wild shot here and guess that self-preservation is not such an uncommon event among persons who were put into behavior modification programs when there was nothing about them that needed modifying.  Especially programs where the process of program "success" required one to wipe out or deny ones ture self.
 

I don't think that people who truly believe they were flawed individuals way back when and still believe that about themselves, could ever really understand.  There is a deep sense of counfusion, shame, fear, maybe even desperation that comes with being required to abandon your sense of self and adopt a whole new set of values. Either that or you get to stay put on the first couple of rows or some freaking step category for some indetrminable period of time.
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline Antigen

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F---ed
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2006, 03:38:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-04-10 19:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You would have to be smoking the same stuff to understand it.  And, you would have to have had a sub-standard education."


That's Programeze for "Fuck! I remember that moment! Shit! Can we please not talk about it? I only want to think about the trauma bonds and comforting simplistic world view I got from that wonderful, wonderful program and oh how I miss it all!"

So thanks  :wave:

There's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
http://www.cagw.org/' target='_new'>Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline cleveland

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F---ed
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2006, 11:00:00 AM »
Marc Polonsky wrote about the same feeling:

http://www.insidersview.info/theseed.htm

Pretty amazing. I had to read Marc's version to recapture the exact feeling.

"The one thing I remember distinctly about my first full day at the Seed was that the morning rap was on "conning." It was a horrifying and awakening experience for me because when people stood up and said things like "I thought I could con the Seed by just saying everything they wanted me to," I realized that the Seed was after a very different, more fundamental kind of change than I had thought. I was scared."

"But for some reason, the only point on which I did not eventually give way to Stan was that I was happy before I came to the Seed. This was enough to enrage him. He would demand, "What about those nights when you lied awake in bed, wishing things were different somehow because you knew you just didn't feel right?" and I would reply that there had been no such nights. And he would tell me what an asshole I was, and so on. It was in fact this very argument that, on the night before I was finally allowed to go home, led him to comment, "You've made some progress but you're not even in the same ballpark as being allowed to go home."

"But that progress I had made had already cost me dearly. I felt like I had betrayed my friends and my sister and that I was no longer the same person. Even if I were to be completely pulled off the program at that point, I could not go back to being the person I had been. I could no longer think clearly or reflect on things in the privacy of my own mind, the way I had used to. My mind was too cluttered and confused and reflexively frightened of being invaded. Stan [oldcomer]had always been asking, "What are you thinking?" when I had least expected it. This "What are you thinking?" ploy of Stan's had been very effective in breaking down my resistance and cutting me off from my internal resources."

"It took me well over a decade to understand what had happened to me, what the Seed had done to my psyche, and what I'd done to myself while I was in the Seed. I strongly suspect that my internal process was very similar to that of many other Seedlings, though I cannot speak for others.

In a nutshell, the Seed forced me to "mean things that were not true." Under the combined pressures of sleep deprivation, lack of privacy, and constant haranguing both at the Seed and in Stan's charge, I eventually, with my words, betrayed everything that was sacred to me at that time in my life. I felt that if my friends on the outside still had any good feelings for me, then I no longer deserved them.

The obvious question, though, is why did I have to mean it? Why couldn't I simply say what I was being forced to say, but hold the words more lightly? Why couldn't I, or anyone else for that matter, simply "con" the Seed?"

"The strategy I believe most Seedlings adopted (including me) was to try and persuade themselves that the Seed had to be right. Maintaining a consistent lie, a conscious subterfuge, under such stressful conditions was a tall order for an unsophisticated young teenager. Also, I saw other Seedlings getting "busted" for conning right and left in the group. (I have no idea how many of those accused of conning were actually deliberately conning, any more or less than the rest of us.)

I remember a moment of horror, on the evening of my seventh or eighth day, when I realized that I was unable to "think" any longer. I had lost the ability to retreat into the sanctuary of my own mind and think things through, because I had grown so accustomed to being intruded upon without a moment's notice. It was as if I'd had a sealed off room in my head that had previously been accessible only to myself, and now even I could not enter. (I think I may known even then, in my heart of hearts, that I would regain access to this room at some point in my life, but it would be a long time, much longer than I could accept at age 14.)

During my time with Stan, I put a great deal of energy into resisting him. I set up a psychic force field, as it were, between us. To keep from being devoured, I had to maintain a certain tension, a precarious balance between overt resistance and total surrender. So I emerged at last from his dominion with a certain meager sense of myself intact. But still, I felt horribly guilty and empty, as if I had been pillaged and broken.

At some point shortly after being allowed to go home, I was sitting in the large warehouse room, in the group, at the Seed, pondering how I still believed myself to be "different" from everyone else there, and wondering what good it did me to feel this way. I could see how it was causing me pain. I could not see how it would ever serve me. My fate, as far ahead as I could see, was locked. There was nothing for me but to be a Seedling. I might as well be one then, and wholeheartedly embrace whatever attendant rewards there were. There were some: I could feel a part of something larger than myself. I could be part of an (albeit self-proclaimed) elite. I could have friends, a community, an identity. Why hold out for some other ambiguous set of rewards that I had already sold myself out of anyway?

And here is where I made a strange decision. I decided to make myself a true Seedling. All the energy I had put into resisting Stan, I now directed at my own resistance. I now became my own primary oppressor, working to deny and even to change my genuine feelings. After all, I already felt that I had betrayed myself (and all of my friends), I was already lost; one step further would not make a difference. I could not see the light at the end of the tunnel.

In one sense this "strategy" worked brilliantly. I moved through the rest of the program very quickly. Perhaps it was only an extension, really, of what I'd been doing in the Seed all along up until then, nothing fundamentally different in kind. Whenever the tension between what I really thought and felt and what I was "supposed to" think and feel became too apparent and unbearable to me, I had to deny the conflict and push it out of mind. I was unable to "ride out" the discomfort of being divided. My choices were either to consciously live a lie, or start working internally against my own emotions. I didn't see myself as capable of the former."

I don't care if you thought the Seed was a great experience and you are a happy ex-Seedling, if you thought the Seed sucked, or if you are ambivalent. I believe that everyone went through a similar internal process, and Marc really captured it.
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Offline GregFL

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F---ed
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2006, 08:50:00 AM »
yes, Marc did capture the experience.

So did you Wally.  I felt many of the exact same things you did during those first couple weeks.  I did not want to surrender myself to the seed, but I morphed over that time to someone who came to the realization that I had to in order to survive and get out the other side to freedom.  It was a terrifying invasive process that I will never forget and never wish on another person.
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Offline Stripe

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F---ed
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2006, 02:32:00 PM »
As the thread title goes, that's pretty much how went for all the children in the crowd.

Society usually looks down on parents who have subjected their children to the danger and disaster that results from a family membership in a cult. The children are viewed as innocent victims and the parents are the criminals, sometimes in the literal sense. An extreme but very realisitic example:  Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple.

On the other hand, when parents voluntarily and willingly subject their children to cult teachings and forced membership, the children who reject the danger and disaster of the cult are reviled and turned away. That's what the message was from Art Barker and The Seed back to the parents.  

Accept the dogma and deny themselves, or reject the dogma and risk total rejection by their family and their new society.  

Yeah, all in all, most young kids were definitely fucked no matter how they chose.
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline marcwordsmith

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F---ed
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 08:13:00 AM »
I once performed a slam poem in which I referenced The Seed, and it went like this:

Some people get raped on a floor or a bed
I got fucked in the head instead

By the way, I'm assuming it's okay to spell out profanity here (?)

My question tonight:
It seems most of us here--especially us nonanonymous regulars--all essentially agree about what happened and how completely horrible it was.

But what about the hundreds and hundreds of others? I don't know a single Seedling from my time (late '72-early '73). Most of them, in the years immediately following, acted like it had been no big deal and told me to get over it (in so many words). The guys I was hanging out with the most right after the program--also ex-Seedlings--were extremely scornful of how much I needed to still talk about The Seed a year or more after I graduated. They would say, "There goes Marc again with his favorite subject." And they'd roll their eyes. They'd be genuinely embarrassed if I brought up the subject with different people (especially girls), or if I even allowed myself to be drawn into conversation about the subject with people who hadn't been in The Seed.

Did anybody else experience anything like this? Did it feel like The Seed made a bigger dent in you than in anyone else? There was something extra humiliating about that for me. It was like a new humiliation laid on top of the whole humiliating experience of having had to go through The Seed.

I stopped hanging out with ex-Seedlings about the time I began eleventh grade; it was too painful, so I made new "druggie friends" who were a little kinder and more amazed at what I'd been through. But I knew the other ex Seedlings would be laughing if they knew how much I still talked about it, to these new friends.

I went to the University of Florida when I was 18, and I knew no former Seedlings there. At age 20 I moved to California by myself, largely to put some distance between myself and my family. So from 1976 or so, until 2002 when I discovered this forum, I had absolutely no contact with anyone who'd ever even heard of The Seed, let alone been there.

So again I ask, were we just the sensitive ones who took it too seriously? I'm sure people did con the Seed after all. Or at least they didn't take it so much to heart. Did they have some natural adaptation mechanism--something between allowing themselves to be brainwashed and putting up overt resistance--a survival skill that those of us drawn to this forum were somehow missing?
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Offline marcwordsmith

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F---ed
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2006, 08:21:00 AM »
I mean, wherever they are, all those other former Seedlings, it doesn't seem that they've googled The Seed and found this site.

Or if they have, they haven't felt a need to join the conversation.
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Offline Anonymous

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F---ed
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2006, 09:18:00 AM »
Alot of folks don't feel the same way you do.

Did you go to catholic school?

Alot of people that went to catholic school hated it too.  Others thought the discipline was fine and accepted it.

What can I say.

I went to catholic school & the Seed and feel I benifited from both.
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Offline cleveland

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F---ed
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2006, 10:35:00 AM »
Marc,

I too feel the need to think and talk about the Seed quite a lot, after keeping it buried for many, many years.

Why?

I don't know. From this forum, I have had contact with eight or nine seedlings from my era. Without naming anyone, here's a tally:

1 - female, was a newcomer when I was an oldcomer. Posted a few times here, was ambivalent but mostly negative about the Seed. Currently married with children and owns a very successful business. We emailed a few times, but her career takes priority.

2 - male, was a staff member when I came in. Posts here, we've talked on the phone and emailed. I think he was initially shocked when I had anything negative to say about the Seed, because he is one who feels it saved his life. We're in touch - I think he's a great guy, and we agree to disagree.

3 - female, was an oldcomer before me at a nother Seed branch, moved to Ft. Lauderdale when I was there - posted here a bit. We emailed quite actively, and she had been a long-term Seedling, and kept up with a lot of people. She is pretty open to both positive and negative Seed aspects, and feels that the biggest flaw was that the Seed kids by and large did not have children, even after they married. She cut off contact because she felt that it was living in the past. Married with children.

4 - male, newcomer with my brother before me, posts here regularly. Very anti-Seed, was a staff 'side-kick' for a long while, left about the same time I did. He, like me, went on to become an artist. We email from time to time.

5 - male, long-term Seedling, currently an academic. Struggled to find an identity post-Seed, came to terms with being gay, which was something the Seed had trouble with. Posts here on occasion, we've spoken, he's aware of good and bad effects. Still close to some Seedlings.

6 - male, was on the front row with me. Engineer. Posts here from time to time, we've emailed, he's pretty anti-Seed, but shares with me some good memories. Has kids and is married, sounds very happy.

7 - male, newcomer when I was an oldcomer, successful business owner. We've spoken and emailed, he struggled with the Seed hierarchy and leaving was hard, he does feel that it saved his life although he has been critical, that's his bottom line.

8 - long-term seedling, oldcomer when I was, we lived together then, he's had a long career in a technical field and stuck with the Seed for a long time. We emailed, but he didn't reply after I made a comment critical of the Seed. Nice guy, but I don't think he wants to have anything to do with me on that basis at present. Pro-Seed.

9 - female, oldcomer when I was, was forced out of the Seed for some infraction, VERY anti-Seed, has posted here, but not recently.

10 and 11 - these are two people who I didn't know, one posts here and has written eloquently on the Seed, is very anti-Seed; and another, who started emailing me but has stopped, was on staff in early Seed days and is very perceptive about the process of the group - essentially anti-Seed but mostly because he feels Art screwed up.

I've had contact with one or two others, but the above are the main ones. Looks like an even division - one each, very anti-Seed, one each, very pro, and the rest divided. These are the people who, at least for a while, wanted to talk about this experience and reconnect. I am aware that there are others, many many others, who would just rather not talk about it. I think because it confuses them, they are not ready to deal with ambivalent feelings, or perhaps anger, or other disturbing emotions. They prefer to remember vaguely that it was tough but they did it, and maybe they're better of for it, or maybe not, but the past is the past.

For whatever reason, I needed to dredge it all up and have a look at it...

W
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Offline GregFL

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F---ed
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2006, 11:29:00 AM »
Yes Marc, I did feel I was more damaged by the Seed than my other friends.  This also added to the feeling of isolation and despair over the loss of most of my friends and family.  First it was the ridicule and scorn of the "druggies" when I became a seedling, then it was the silence and ostracation by the seedlings for speaking my mind (which I thought I had "earned" by becoming a graduate...stupid me), and then finally the loss of my family.

After this I moved to Ft Lauderdale and met a bunch of kids in my mother's apartment complex.  I smoked with them and told them the stories,and they were all amazed. Soon the stories weren't pertinent anymore and I stopped talking about it. I drove by the seed once in a while and yelled "the seed sucks", and  I ran into seedlings from time to time (maggie and Suzie, and then Art at Cranbrook), but mostly the Seed for me only existed as pain and anger I held inside.  I would see Art on TV once in a while while he was running for congress, and I would just go ballistic, usually pointing and calling him names like "theres that muther fucker right there!" or something like that.  Then I started seeing things about "the straight" and knowing that my father was involved in it, I just was overwhelmed by the scope of the whole thing. Once I saw a fundraiser being held by one of those shop at home networks for straight, and my stomach turned.  I couldn't believe it was getting that big.  My father and I were totally estranged during this time, and his actions were just unbelievable to me, that he would involve himself in the system of "treatment" that had chewed me up and spit me out.  It felt like  a personal attack on my self worth, to be frank.

 To me it was a major mind fuck that I just couldn't get out of my mind.  When I went to the university of florida I researched the seed in the library and found the "science" and "these are new times" articles and made exclamation marks beside the "branwashing" and other accusations.  These articles were like treasure to me because it seemed that yes, someone out there beside me understood what I went thru. I kept them and still have them to this day, and every once in a while I would bring them out and read them.

Then I got married and told my ex wife.  She didn't understand. In fact, thinking back, she would have made a perfect seed mom.  

Meanwhile, when I would run into my former seedling "friends" from St Pete they had seemed to just have shedded the whole experience, didnt' want to talk about it, and it didn't seem to be affecting them one way or the other.  I now believe this is false, but that is the attitude they would take.  This also made me feel seperate and different.

So yes, I think some of us did take it harder than others.  Kind of like some cats love being domesticated, and others will bolt for the door everytime it is left open.  I think this describes some some of us, held captive and struggling to stay true to ourselves in a situation where it was impossible to do so.  


This forum has been a wonderfull thing for me. I have been able to identify the anger, pain, and actual processes I was subjected to, and to put the pain and anger in the past.  I have been able to make peace with people that don't agree with me on the subject and understand that other people had different experiences.

I hope others have gotten something similar out of it.
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Offline marcwordsmith

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F---ed
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2006, 12:31:00 PM »
Well I certainly have gotten a whole lot out of the forum, Greg, so, as always, thank you.

Thank you Greg and Walter for your thoughtful responses to my last post. It's interesting to me that the other post that came--the one by the person who "benefitted" from both Catholic School and The Seed--was anonymous. What's up with all these anonymous Seed cheerleaders? So strange.

In fact, one of the most unexpected things about this whole forum is the presence of people still loyal to The Seed, still saying that they are straight and The Seed saved them. (In the beginning of the forum, everyone was angry about The Seed, isn't that right, Greg?) There were only two Seedlings that I knew who did not, as far as I know, start using drugs again within a year or two. The vast majority of former Seedlings were using drugs again, but acting as if The Seed had been no big deal.

Greg, I can't imagine how gross it would feel that your father should get involved with Straight after the damage you sustained in The Seed. That's cool that you went to UF though. I bet we were there at the same time. I arrived in fall '76 and stayed through the fall '78 quarter and then moved to CA.

I can also relate to feeling overwhelmed when I first heard about Straight. Shortly after moving to CA I became very active in anti-nuclear political activism and met a lot of lovely people and I thought to myself, Well, this is all so much more important than the Seed anyway. Then, in 1986, I was on the cross-county Great Peace March for Global Nuclear Disarmament and I was reading the novel, "A Scanner Darkly" by Philip K Dick, which had a fascist futuristic drug rehab in it. Another young man on the march saw me with the book, and he said, "Wow, you're reading that book? It's poignant as shit, man."

I said, "Well, I like it. I don't know if I'd call it poignant. But this drug rehab reminds me of an experience I myself had long ago . . ." and I told him about The Seed and his jaw dropped. He knew all about The Seed. He himself had been through Straight, and he was very very damaged. He told me all about Straight, how it had "blossomed" from The Seed, and about "motivating" and all the bizarre shit that went on, and how Straight was very very big right then. And I felt sick inside because I realized that the whole phenomenon was too much for me to face, even though I felt a responsibility to do something. Just the thought of trying to do anything filled me with such dread, I knew I couldn't be the one to start a survivors' movement against Straight/Seed or anything like that. I wanted somebody else to do it. And I guess, eventually, people like Ginger and Greg and Richard Bradbury and Maia Szalavitz did, albeit MUCH later than I could have imagined.
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