Why don't WE make a program?

[Nihilanthic]

LGATs, no matter what they are called, are just rehashed versions of the old EST (erhard seminar training) from the 1970s.

People who like them will speak about feelings and lots of vague or emotional terms, usually utilizing lots of 'feelgood' terms and generally using newspeak ala george orwell... as the anons here have demonstrated so well.

Ultimately, whoever, thats all it is. Feelings and pathological effects that wear off unless you
continually throw the person into the seminar to mantain it.

In other words, you cant make a program thats good anymore than you can make an apple thats an orage.
Im not going to say a regime of continual brainwashing is a good idea for children, teens, OR adults. I will, however say that its bullshit, and all the stuff the anons here are saying is boilerplate promotional propaganda for the programs, and so they can remind THEMSELVES they still believe in it.

There are lots of articles floating around about them, Ill share a few.

http://nospank.net/lile.htm
http://nospank.net/bean.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm
http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/

There are others out there, including personal accounts from the CHILDREN who have been through these, at ISAC and at the above blogspot link.

Its about time someone brought in the other side of the coin to this thread... and, well the bottom line, which these programmies dont seem to get:

You cant make a program not abusive and still have it a program! If you ditched the seminars (or WHATEVER you call an LGAT these days), the isolation and prevention or control of communication, the bullshit punitive practices, the stupid rules, the hierarchies, ESPECIALLY having oldcomers lead around newcomers, the ridiculous tuitions, and basically ditch anything that has anything to do with brainwashing, mind control, behavior modification, or "breaking them down" in any way, you basically have... nothing left, except whatever facilities they have for hygene, boarding, clothes washing facilities, food prep and schoolbooks they made the children teach themselves out of.

Honestly, if you 'fixed' a program youd basically have a boarding school with on site therapy. And boarding schools with on site therapy, but no bullshit communication control, prevention of children from seeing their family, friends and lawyers and no abuse are NOT PROGRAMS by any stretch of the imagination!

In other words, the point isn't to 'build a better mouse trap' or make a 'good program' - its to make a place that actually provides therapy, has people who are responsible to tell parents to sod off if they want to put the kid in for *THEM* and not becuase the kid has any need, and to tell misinformed or scared parents that nothing is wrong, if, infact, nothing is wrong!

[Nihilanthic]

On 2006-03-05 14:11:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

"

On 2006-03-05 11:17:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Instead of abuse, beatings, isolation and all the other cultist dogshit that is inflicted on teenagers, why don't the members of Fornits pool their resources to make a place where kids are given love, attention, respect, and other things they badly need?





Consider it for a moment. Why should we allow these shiteaters the full run of the entire teen-help industry? What's stopping us from giving parents an alternative and maybe saving a shitload of kids?





Why don't we provide a real haven?"

Umm... because we aren't qualified or certified to work with or counsel at-risk youth?



This is the same mentality as people who believe the program helped them: that just because we had an experience with a behavior mod school, whether it be positive or negative, and that we were troubled teens, that somehow gives us insight into running a program.



Get your therapist's certification, or degree in psychology or psychiatry, and have some experience working with and educating at-risk youth in a junior position to start with, and then come talk to me.
"

STAC, knowing as you and I do that you dont actually need qualifications to do jack shit in this industry, the two of us could go down and get a business loan and open up "Sorry, try another ranch" and get $ue $cheff to refer kids to us at the drop of a hat.

And, well, wed probably get filthy rich.

OTOH, if we and other fornitsers went and started up a 'program' but just were upfront with the kids that its all a racket, what the parents are expecting, and what they do at other programs, we could just 'coach' them in how to put on an act on a phone when the parents call and just let them watch TV And play video games all day, and if any of them need real therapy we could call in a therapist for the kid. If they get violent wed call the cops and if they needed hospital treatment for whatever reason... err... actually call 911!

 Yeah, it wouldnt be REAL help and treatment, but then again for the 2% that need it, if its even that much, as I said above, we could just call in a psychologist or whatever specialist we'd need.

None of the other programs actually provide any education, so why should we bother? If we wanted to we could get real teachers with the money charged from tuition!

Still, considering most of these kids need a BREAK, and some TLC, not programming and being broken down, Id say just take them out to do things for fun  and let them just do what comes naturally - socialize. We'd also be taking money out of the hands of some stoopid parents that they cant go spend on a WWASPS program  :roll:

[Nihilanthic]

1. Do they utilize isolation at all?

I don't believe there is total isolation in any instance. There are writing assignments where you have to sit by yourself and aren't allowed to attend class, and there are work assignments such as chopping down stumps. You are not locked in a room or anything.

Nice deflection. Isolation doesnt mean being locked in a seclusion room - it also means if youre isolated from the outside world - free, open communication with family and friends, the authorities, legal representation or advocatsy, knowledge of whats going on (news, etc).

Most programs use extreme isolation in THAT regard, even if youre not told you cant talk to people or locked in a room.

2. Do they receive psychotherapy?

There is individual and group therapy. I don't know the exact definition of psychotherapy.

WHAT kind of therapy? The confrontational bullshit every other program uses?

3. What type of interaction is there with the family, to help the transition back home?

There are weekly or bi-weekly calls with the family, on-campus visits, off-campus visits, home visits and then transition planning with the student and the family.

If there are actually weekly visits, and its real, uncensored communication, thats a good thing. However, back in STRAIGHT when you had family visits half of it was setting you up for failure, or just more pain - you had to tell them how much you loved the program, couldnt complain, and people were there to listen to make sure you did AND stop them from listening.

Does carlbrook do any of the same?

4. Are there any reported incidents of abuse? Official or non-official?

None that I am aware of.

Fair enough. Then again, carlbrook admittedly uses LGATs, which is abusive, intrinsically.

5. Do they claim to be a place for a kid with a serious drug or mental problem? (instead of refering him to a psych hospital, etc)

No- they specifically state that they will not take students with serious mental problems. Wilderness is required first, which serves as a detox period.

"WILDERNESS" IS NOT DETOX! DETOX REQUIRES A MEDICAL STAFF WITH ALL THE SUPPLIES AND EQUIPMENT NECESSARY FOR THAT! ARGH!

Marching through the woods doesnt magically do anything! Its stressful, unplesant, VERY isolated, and a great vehicle for confrontational therapy and other LGAT-like practices. And, its notoriously filthy, unhygenic, not good for someone with real emotional problems, and COMPLETELY unprepared for someone who needs detox.

If youre sick, do you take a hike, or do you rest? Jeeze.

6. How many kids reside at the program, is it crowded?
There are around 100 kids or maybe a few over that. Some of the dorm rooms get crowded, but the campus is large and the buildings are nice.

Fix the crowded dorm facilities. Theres no excuse for any business that makes the kind of revenue a program does to have people living in crowded facilities. Give them AT MINIMUM enough to be safe and comfortable and clean, and then maybe a little more. The parents are certainly paying enough for these kids to stay in a luxury hotel, yet it seems theyre forced to live as 'low' as possible.

7. Can a parent visit unannounced?
I don't think that would be encouraged, but nothing would prevent you from showing up.

Oh, nothing prevents them showing up, but could they speak to their kids alone, unmolested, no questions asked? Could they take the kid and leave?

And while we're there, what prevents anyone else from picking up the kid?

8. Is communication restricted, if so, how?
Letters to and from the parents are not restricted. Other communication is restricted.

What about extended family? Grand parents have visitation rights theyre generally not aware of, and if the kids trying to get better, how would isolation from family and friends that care about them and love them help?

9. What happens if a kid runs away? Has this happened?
If a kid runs away he is sent back to wilderness, in most cases.

REDFLAG. Using "wilderness" as a stick? What a joke! Any reason Carlbrook cant personally make kids live in filth, do heavy labor and get their buttons pushed until they break down themselves?

10. Do they offer referal programs to parents, or any incentive to sell this program to their friends and relatives? Or anything related to this?
Absolutely no referral fees or incentives. The school has a waitlist.

Well, thats the first truly positive thing about carlbrook Ive heard.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2006-03-05 19:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My kid is not a sensitive, gentle kid (he hides his sensitivity) and while resistant to most things therapeutic, REALLY liked the workshops. As thrilled as he was to be able to leave the program early, he actually regretted missing the last two workshops.

Karen"

Really? Is the kid lying to you under threat of punishment or more time in a program or 'wilderness' or are you lying?

http://nospank.net/lile.htm
http://nospank.net/bean.htm
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/eldon.braun/awa ... hology.htm
http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/

Well, then again, for the sake of fairness, I must realize theres the possibility that the child, and/or yourself might have been unduly influced by a seminar and cant be held responsible for spewing the same feelings laden, factually vacant nonsense we've all heard before.

Doesnt change the fact that its nothing but manipulative bullshit that was debunked ages ago.

[Anonymous]

My kid is 19 and heading for college. He has no reason to lie to me about anything treatment-related. He liked the workshops I can't answer your specific questions about them. Perhaps Carlbrook has changed the model enough that they aren't "mind-fucks", as you call them. Perhaps they are valuable tools for the kids.  I'm just telling you what my anti-therapy, anti-program kid, who is very assertive and NOT easily influenced by anyone, has to say.
As for isolation- I will agree that many of the distractions of the outside world were removed. There was some access to newspapers and news, but not a whole lot.  There were some trips into "town" for dinner, movies, medical appointments.  
This place was not a jail. My son was bent out of shape because he didn't have internet access or a cell phone.  One of the benefits of going to wilderness first is that you learn that you don't really need those things.
If you recall, my position is that wilderness (at least the program my son attended) is an incredible and necessary therapeutic intervention. When Carlbrook sends kids back to wilderness it is to allow them to work on specific issues which prevented them from remaining in the community.
Karen

[TheWho]

I think one of the reasons there are fewer abuses at Carlbrook is that the school is kept small. This prevents some of the teen issues of rank.

Good point, I think an ideal school would be kept small, it prevents rank and also you can lose sight of their individual needs if a school gets too large.  The intimacy of a small school can foster the feeling of being safe also.

[TheWho]

On 2006-03-05 14:23:00, Goodtobefree wrote:

"On the other hand, we may be quite valuable as advisors to those who DO possess the right qualifications.  Those professionals who ARE qualified to reform this industry can't do it without the perspective of those who've been a part of it.  Those of us that want to help don't necessarily need to become doctors to do it, but it's silly to think that we could reform the system without at least working with medical professionals who understand how the human brain works on a scientific level.  We can help them to understand these issues better, by sharing the details of our experiences, but just because we know exactly how things went wrong doesn't mean any of us necessarily have a clue what would actually be good.  Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that none of us have any idea how to reform the system, but most of the people on this site are not doctors or psychologists, etc.  Our insights are valuable, but that doesn't mean we should necessarily be the ones who make the policies.  That's the real problem with these facilities, nobody with any real credentials ever had any say in how these places operate."

Goodtobefree ? I think you would have some great input in building a new place.  I know I have some ideas myself from my experience and from what I learned from my daughter, but you have first hand experience.  We may not have the degrees in the field or psychologists, but like you said we can help them to understand some of the issues, what worked, what didn?t work.  We could help them build on those areas we feel benefited the kids most.

[Anonymous]

To the original anon thinking about forming an org:

Instead of building a program, why not form a watchdog organization? I think the skills and experiences of the people on this site would be much more effective going this route.

Let's say you start a program, how many kids will that effect? 25? 50? 100 at most? Now think about how many kids are sent to WWASPS, PROVO, and other notoriously abusive programs every year. You would harldy make a dent.

But with an effective awareness campaign, the effect could be widespread and contagious.

I think fornits is already a great resource because it's the event horizon where anti-program folks and pro-program folks collide. There is a lot of information here, supporting both arguments. However, this forum is  a microcosm of a debate that most people don't even know about, or care about. So they haven't even chosen a stance on whether they agree with this type of 'help' or not. In my experience the ignorant tend to assume these programs are okay; after a decade of daytime TV show hosts using these programs, I am not surprised. We all know about their extensive, intrusive and dishonest marketing strategies. They prey on the weak; frightened parents willing to make a hard choice to keep their kid alive... at least in their own mind. These programs know this and profit from it.

We all saw the outrage when the young boy was beat to death in Florida. The press was all over it for weeks. But what about the deaths at all the other places... not a peep. We all know the government officials don't care, and don't even enforce existing law, so lobbying for more regulation and laws seems a fruitless effort. In fact, many programs are owned by those same government officials. In my opinion, awareness is key, not so much another program.

[Anonymous]

One more thing... if you start a program, and continue to criticize other programs - you will simply appear to be a competing program trying to badmouth your competion. You'd give yourself a motive to put other camps out of business.

Just because we know how to run a super-profitable business taking advantage of frightened parents at the expense of their kids access to more effective treatment, doesnt mean we should.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-05 14:23:00, Goodtobefree wrote:

"That's the real problem with these facilities, nobody with any real credentials ever had any say in how these places operate."

That's not entirely true, and a sad fact about these places. Some do find medical staff to sign on to a harmful program, giving them appearable credibility.

Take Provo Canyon for instance. If you check out their staff page and you will see how many capital letters after names there are. They are also accredited by several organizations. My adolescent psychiatrist referred me there, about as professional as one can get. He just didn't know, he had never been there, they just mailed him brochures to keep around. Somehow the idea of going to an 'RTC' came up during my treatment, and that was the only brochure he had left. So the cookie crumbles.

[Anonymous]

I have been reading the feedback from all the posters about the pro's and con's of Carlbrook.
The foundation every program is built on, is the credibility of the owners and employees of the program, regardless of the type of program. The first person on the list of key people for Carlbrook is Dr. Glenn Bender. He states on his resume he has 25 years experience as an educator and employee of a number of programs and schools.
Dr. Bender seems to have forgotten his place of employment just before Carlbrook. From 1999 until he started at Carlbrook, Dr. Bender was the Director of Admissions and Marketing at Alldredge Academy in Davis,West Virginia. In Feb 2001 a child died at Alldredge Academy. One year later, Alldredge Academy pleaded guilty to "Child neglect resulting in death". Dr Bender was the primary recruiter of that childs family. He assured the family that Alldredge Academy was a safe and appropriate placement for a child with depression yet when the child died as a result of depression, Dr. Bender seemed to disappear. I can understand why Dr. Bender would not want to list an employer with a criminal conviction on his resume, considering he was a major player in the crime. In every field, weather it is academics or business, falsifying a resume is a serious breach of ethics usually resulting in dismissal. Did the other principals of Carlbrook not know or not care? In either event this creates a credibility issue and calls into question the honesty of the entire program.

[Anonymous]

It certainly wasn't any secret that Bender was at Alldredge. The lawsuit was a matter of public record.  Obviously, the principals of Carlbrook (Price, Merritt and Merritt) felt that the positives of Bender outweighed the negatives. Carlbrook has him in a role where he can't do too much direct harm, and many parents are quite taken with him. I continue to believe he is the weak link in an otherwise exceptional staff at Carlbrook.

[try another castle]

STAC, knowing as you and I do that you dont actually need qualifications to do jack shit in this industry, the two of us could go down and get a business loan and open up "Sorry, try another ranch" and get $ue $cheff to refer kids to us at the drop of a hat.

And, well, wed probably get filthy rich

Hahaha! "Sorry Mario, the princess is at another ranch."

I was thinking in that monarch thread about the qualifications issue, and figured I could probably get a job there if I wanted to, after I read the employment section for the lead counselor. (Just as long as I didn't tell them I was gay, and hid my tattoos.) I probably couldn't get lead, maybe junior, but my ex-CEDU status would be a major plus. For CEDU, that's all you needed, really. I have a feeling that monarch isn't all that different. In addition, I have a four year BFA, and could simply say that I specialize in "art therapy". I could probably get a job at Carlbrook, too.

Now I ask you, would you trust ME with your children? (Bwahahaha.)

Actually, that would be an interesting experiment. See how many of us could get offered jobs at these places. (Obviously, we wouldn't take them.) But just to see how far we could get through the interview proccess.

_________________

"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."
-Trevor Goodchild

[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-03-06 09:57 ]

[TheWho]

One more thing... if you start a program, and continue to criticize other programs - you will simply appear to be a competing program trying to badmouth your competion. You'd give yourself a motive to put other camps out of business.

One wouldn?t need to criticize other programs, they would be busy doing good 24/7 helping kids out instead of standing on the sidelines pointing out others faults.  It?s a different energy when you feel you have made a difference in another?s life to make them a little happier.
Ripping programs and schools apart and pointing out where they went wrong and how much they screwed up is good for getting anger out, short term, but it adds little value to anyone except stroking ones own need to badger others.  Don?t get me wrong, this is needed for many people who have had a bad experience, but eventually if and when they grow out of it they can refocus that energy into something positive.  One way is to Actually make a difference and feel the accomplishments of helping someone else to improve their lives by lending your experiences.

This is how I read the reason the Anon started this thread and I think it could lead to some great ideas and expose parts of programs which are harmful.  Then at some point the thread could be summarized and used by someone starting a school for kids, it could prove to be very interesting, beneficial and useful.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-06 09:57:00, TheWho wrote:

"

One more thing... if you start a program, and continue to criticize other programs - you will simply appear to be a competing program trying to badmouth your competion. You'd give yourself a motive to put other camps out of business.

One wouldn�t need to criticize other programs, they would be busy doing good 24/7 helping kids out instead of standing on the sidelines pointing out others faults.  It�s a different energy when you feel you have made a difference in another�s life to make them a little happier.

Ripping programs and schools apart and pointing out where they went wrong and how much they screwed up is good for getting anger out, short term, but it adds little value to anyone except stroking ones own need to badger others.  Don�t get me wrong, this is needed for many people who have had a bad experience, but eventually if and when they grow out of it they can refocus that energy into something positive.  One way is to Actually make a difference and feel the accomplishments of helping someone else to improve their lives by lending your experiences.



This is how I read the reason the Anon started this thread and I think it could lead to some great ideas and expose parts of programs which are harmful.  Then at some point the thread could be summarized and used by someone starting a school for kids, it could prove to be very interesting, beneficial and useful.

"

Heard of PURE? As soon as programs realize their ex-student critics started their own profitable program, which in Joe Public's eyes looks exactly the same as WWASP, it starts to erode credibility. You will just be adding another program to the mix, making it even MORE difficult for parents to find the legitimate ones within an industry willed with illegitimate programs.  

I am saying from a strategic point of view, if your position is to shut down abusive programs, starting your own program would not be the best way to go about this. Remember, the original poster asked why doesn't fornits pool their resources. I am saying I think it would be an effort in a completely misguided direction. The nature of fornits with it's wealth of information, and the fact everyone is spread all over the country, would it not be a much more practical task to create a watchdog group?

What if there was an organization who rated all the programs, A-F? Would you believe this group of individuals if they had their own program? That is my point. I am not saying ex-studemts shouldn't start their own program (many already have), do whatever makes ya feel good, I am saying if fornits posters really wanted to pool their resources to make a difference, there would be better ways to go about this than the original idea posted.

In reality, an awareness campaign coming from a credible group would more likely save many more kids from abusive programs, than a 'haven program' for the selected few. There is already better options out there, why try and make a program-lite?