A New Twist on How this Industry

[Kathy]

Please read http://www.kathymoya.com/FICA/index.html

[Deborah]

El CERRITO ? Whatever they saw in those predawn hours, it was too much.

Police expressed concern Friday for the children of Julie and Paul Rogers, who they said witnessed at least some of the violence that killed their parents inside their hillside home early Tuesday.

Two of the Rogers' three school-age children were home when their uncle, Edward "Ted" Wycoff, broke through a front window while the family slept, police said.

Wycoff, 37, carried a large knife, gun and wheelbarrow handle, which he used to stab and beat his sister and brother-in-law to death, police said Friday.

"It's going to be very difficult for (the children) to deal with and go on with their lives," El Cerrito police Cmdr. Gary Priebe said. He did not elaborate on what they witnessed, only that it was "too much."

Family friends have said the Rogers children are ages 17, 15 and 12. The 17-year-old is attending a wilderness camp out of state, according to family friends. As of Friday, police said, the boy had not returned to the Bay Area.
++++++++++++++++++

"The reason why Mr. Wycoff made the decision to kill his sister and his brother-in-law was hatched well in advance of the homicides," Jewett said. "Part of it was a financial issue dealing with the administration of the estate of an aunt, and part of it had to do with Mr. Wycoff's assessment of the way that the Rogers were raising their children."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... H208N1.DTL

Wycoff said he was upset at how the couple had raised their three children, a 12-year-old girl and boys ages 15 and 17. He said his sister, a former member of the El Cerrito Planning Commission, had aggravated a neighbor over a dispute about home repairs and moved their 96-year-old great-aunt into a nursing home, taking control of her assets against his wishes.

"Murder is wrong, but what I did was I killed two bad people and I made the world a better place by doing that," he said. "She was truly an evil person, and so was Paul. They destroyed their children's lives. I guess what I achieved is I removed two very evil people from the face of the earth."

Wycoff said he realized the public would probably not understand his actions. "Well, they're not a stand-up sort of guy. I'm a take-control, take-action guy," he said. "I'm the kind of guy who will stand up and do what's right."

He said while everyone considered the couple "to be saints," no one knew them like he did.

Wycoff said killing them would protect "people in the future" who would have had to deal with them.

"I think I'm a great guy," he said. "I don't like this stuff like I had to do. I'm not like that. It's just something I had to do, so I did it."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... H2TJL1.DTL

[Anonymous]

On 2006-02-06 20:53:00, Deborah wrote:

"

El CERRITO ? Whatever they saw in those predawn hours, it was too much.



Police expressed concern Friday for the children of Julie and Paul Rogers, who they said witnessed at least some of the violence that killed their parents inside their hillside home early Tuesday.



Two of the Rogers' three school-age children were home when their uncle, Edward "Ted" Wycoff, broke through a front window while the family slept, police said.



Wycoff, 37, carried a large knife, gun and wheelbarrow handle, which he used to stab and beat his sister and brother-in-law to death, police said Friday.



"It's going to be very difficult for (the children) to deal with and go on with their lives," El Cerrito police Cmdr. Gary Priebe said. He did not elaborate on what they witnessed, only that it was "too much."



Family friends have said the Rogers children are ages 17, 15 and 12. The 17-year-old is attending a wilderness camp out of state, according to family friends. As of Friday, police said, the boy had not returned to the Bay Area.

++++++++++++++++++



"The reason why Mr. Wycoff made the decision to kill his sister and his brother-in-law was hatched well in advance of the homicides," Jewett said. "Part of it was a financial issue dealing with the administration of the estate of an aunt, and part of it had to do with Mr. Wycoff's assessment of the way that the Rogers were raising their children."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... H208N1.DTL



Wycoff said he was upset at how the couple had raised their three children, a 12-year-old girl and boys ages 15 and 17. He said his sister, a former member of the El Cerrito Planning Commission, had aggravated a neighbor over a dispute about home repairs and moved their 96-year-old great-aunt into a nursing home, taking control of her assets against his wishes.



"Murder is wrong, but what I did was I killed two bad people and I made the world a better place by doing that," he said. "She was truly an evil person, and so was Paul. They destroyed their children's lives. I guess what I achieved is I removed two very evil people from the face of the earth."



Wycoff said he realized the public would probably not understand his actions. "Well, they're not a stand-up sort of guy. I'm a take-control, take-action guy," he said. "I'm the kind of guy who will stand up and do what's right."



He said while everyone considered the couple "to be saints," no one knew them like he did.



Wycoff said killing them would protect "people in the future" who would have had to deal with them.



"I think I'm a great guy," he said. "I don't like this stuff like I had to do. I'm not like that. It's just something I had to do, so I did it."



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... H2TJL1.DTL"

So the connection or the inplication is  . . .?

[Antigen]

Are ya' dense? The 17yo is off in one of your death march camps somewhere. Probably doesn't even know he's an orphan yet. Hell, for that matter, he might be dead himself by now. Who's to say?

I think there are better ways to go about protecting children from abusive parents than the way this guy went about it. But I do understand the impulse, too. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often.

Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.

--Thomas Carlyle

[Anonymous]

On 2006-02-07 11:08:00, Eudora wrote:

"Are ya' dense? The 17yo is off in one of your death march camps somewhere. Probably doesn't even know he's an orphan yet. Hell, for that matter, he might be dead himself by now. Who's to say?



I think there are better ways to go about protecting children from abusive parents than the way this guy went about it. But I do understand the impulse, too. I'm kind of surprised it doesn't happen a bit more often.

Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.

--Thomas Carlyle

"

You can't be serious. You assume this guy did it because he was trying to save the older kid from a program? Was this weird double murder in front of the younger kids preferable? You call it an impulse (when he admits it was premeditated)? Again, you simply can't be serious.

[Anonymous]

He seemed to indicate that he didn't like their parenting style in general.  Much as I agree with the sentiment, he went too far by almost anyone's standards.

[Antigen]

Oh, I agree, of course. Too far by many times. But it also reminds me of a frmr straight, inc. client who beat his mother to death w/ a baseball bat. Some of the suicides are pretty obviously Program related too. Then what about that staff member who got clubbed over the head during an escape and died as a result?

Not saying it's right, but Who didn't see that coming? What is it you ppl are always harping on about? Don't you get the results you indended by your actions?

None of Nature's landscapes are ugly so long as they are wild.
-- John Muir

[Anonymous]

"Some of the suicides are pretty obviously Program related too"


That's like claiming that car wreck victims die from being in the hospital.

[Anonymous]

That's like claiming that car wreck victims die from being in the hospital.

Obviously, making a statement like this, you haven't been to an abusive program, and had to watch your friends die off slowly as you grow older. Be grateful for your ignorance. Be very grateful.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-02-08 08:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

That's like claiming that car wreck victims die from being in the hospital.

Obviously, making a statement like this, you haven't been to an abusive program, and had to watch your friends die off slowly as you grow older. Be grateful for your ignorance. Be very grateful."

No, I support programs--the good ones, anyway-- because I've gotten to watch my friends die off slowly from drug overdoses and suicide as the only way to escape their addiction, because there were no programs available to them. To date, fifteen friends. Yes, lucky me, eh?

I did get help from a program, and I really am grateful for that. I support anything that empowers kids to decide for themselves that they'll make it, regardless of their family history, dysfunction, etc.

[Antigen]

On 2006-02-08 13:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

I support anything that empowers kids to decide for themselves that they'll make it, regardless of their family history, dysfunction, etc.

Me too. Coercive persuasion doesn't do that. It only 'empowers' the participants to go around thinking they've found the keys to heaven, thereby emboldening them to fuck w/ other people's lives for their own good.

So what do you make of it when a kid shoots himself in the head while his programmed mother is threatening to ship him back or employ the exit plan? Just coincidence? Might just as easily have killed himself while arguing about sports teams or something? How hard do you have to work to keep yourself convinced?

Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the world.
--Hitler

[Anonymous]

I did get help from a program, and I really am grateful for that. I support anything that empowers kids to decide for themselves that they'll make it, regardless of their family history, dysfunction, etc.

What program? If you wanted to help people, as you seem to imply you want to, why not offer your advice? Instead, you come in here and make few remarks which offer nothing to this conversation. So, either you are for real, and you wish to share your knowledge, and tell us all the program that helped you, or you are trolling for responses, making up lies, etc. Which is it?

Do you support WWASP program? HLA? Which ones do you support and why?

[Anonymous]

No, I support programs--the good ones, anyway-- because I've gotten to watch my friends die off slowly from drug overdoses and suicide as the only way to escape their addiction, because there were no programs available to them.

Okay great. I agree, good treatment helps people as well. But this forum mostly discusses the bad treatment options, not the good ones. I believe WWASP does not help with drug addiction or the psychological problems which lead to suicide. They do not claim to, so why would this program help? Or why would any other program based on coercion work? Do you feel you can punish, and scare the drug addiction and demons out of a person? That is the view held by most about a hundred years ago and they wharehoused the mentally ill and we all know how that turned out. What is different about WWASP and similar programs?

I am really curious to know what program you consider good, and why you did not post the program's name.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-02-08 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

No, I support programs--the good ones, anyway-- because I've gotten to watch my friends die off slowly from drug overdoses and suicide as the only way to escape their addiction, because there were no programs available to them.

Okay great. I agree, good treatment helps people as well. But this forum mostly discusses the bad treatment options, not the good ones. I believe WWASP does not help with drug addiction or the psychological problems which lead to suicide. They do not claim to, so why would this program help? Or why would any other program based on coercion work? Do you feel you can punish, and scare the drug addiction and demons out of a person? That is the view held by most about a hundred years ago and they wharehoused the mentally ill and we all know how that turned out. What is different about WWASP and similar programs?



I am really curious to know what program you consider good, and why you did not post the program's name.



"

I attended a program that's no longer open, so it's kind of a moot point. Also, it was state-run, an experimental thing that seemed to work really well (my experience, and the few classmates I know of are doing great) but didn't get enough funding to continue.

I've seen a few that are similar in approach. I've only seen one wwasp school, and it was actually along the same lines i.e. strict but fair, with good staff, points, levels, genders segregated, etc. but the one I attended was in an urban area.

I've seen a few that work OK for a few kids but never really help many because it all depends on one or two people who happen to work well with kids but don't have a consistent approach.

I don't name them here because I know that my experience is just one instance. If I have a problem with what they do, I'll tell them so. In the meantime, if they're helping kids I support them.

[Anonymous]

Wow, that's a long way to say nothing.