Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Public Sector Gulags

You make the call ...

(1/7) > >>

Anonymous:
Ok, this is the thread where everyone
gets to make the call.

Hindsight is your tool.

Foresight is missing ...

Blame, opinions, stigma, anger, love ...
it could all be here, just participate!

Anonymous:
On January 3, 1999, Andrew Goldstein, 29, a man with a history of schizophrenia, pushed Kendra Webdale, 32, under the wheels of an oncoming subway train, killing her. Goldstein, who confessed to the crime, has been charged with second-degree murder. According to a police source, he also recounted several past incidents in which he had assaulted women. Goldstein had been hospitalized six times in 1998 for the treatment of schizophrenia, the last time less than three weeks before the attack. He was not taking his antipsychotic medication at the time of the attack and told police that a psychotic episode caused him to believe that a "'spirit or ghost'" entered his body and prompted him to push Webdale under the train. Goldstein was found competent to stand trial for murder on April 5, 1999 after Justice Carol Berkman cited reports from two psychiatrists who contended that Goldstein functioned well while on medication. His first trial, where he pleaded not guity by reason of insanity, ended in a mistrial after the jury deadlocked on whether he was insane at the time of the murder. Webdale's mother filed two lawsuits in connection with her daughter's death. The first one sued seven private medical institutions for $70 million, charging they were negligent for releasing Goldstein from inpatient hospitalization when he had a history of noncompliance with medication and was known to be dangerous when unmedicated. Subsequent History: In December 2004, a four-judge panel of the State Supreme Court?s Appellate Division unanimously upheld Goldstein's murder conviction. Goldstein, 34, was convicted of second-degree murder on March 22, 2000 and is serving a sentence of 25 years to life in prison.

Antigen:
Well, if you take the two shrinks' reports, you start from the premis that the medication made him well able to reason and function, right? Whatever that meant to the medical professionals, evidently this guy thought it worth the risk to get off of the stuff. He lost that gamble and so did a presumably innocent bystander.

Now don't take that the wrong way. I'm not trying to cast any disparigment onto Ms. Webdale. It's just that it's unknown. Maybe she was a total stranger, maybe she was his psycho girlfriend who had been antagonizing him for years. It's just unknonwn at this point.

But I believe we all have the right to take that gamble for all the same reasons why we all have the natural right to take drugs if we believe the benefits outweigh the risks.

Which do you think would be worse? Dying a sudden, unexpected, untimely and greusome death under the wheels of a train or getting stuck for life either under incarceration or under the influence of drugs that you can't stand?

And what are the relative odds? I'd say it's an extremely rare event that someone in a state of delusion, whether due to drugs or the lack of them, does any serious harm to anyone. How many people are involuntarily committed unjustly and then driven crazy in the process?

Under the best and most benevolent government in history, the odds are pretty good that for law being enforced. Under this government? Darlin, they sincerely believe that people who smoke pot at all are twice crazy; by virtue of the overpowering haleucenagenic and addictive properties of the demon weed and, by doing it anyway, knowing they might take your kids, toss you in a cell for a long time, fine you and kick your ass in the process.

Clearly, doing something that might bring about that sort of risk is insane, isn't it? Not really, it's just personal dignity. The crime is in properly attributing the bad outcome to the actors, not to a mildly impairing euphoric herb.

But as long as the folks in charge now are holding most of the guns (and this goes back to Eisenhower, in ernest to Nixon) they're not going to mess w/ people who act like Steve Cartisano or Andrea Yates. They're going after the pot smokers. They'll get to the crazy people next, they keep promising.

Nope, I think I'll take my chances w/ you deciding your drugs aren't worth it. You, off your drugs, even if you lived next door to me, scare me a whole bitch of a lot less than those people.

Check this out :wink:
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry

--- End quote ---

Anonymous:
Whew, it is difficult to agree with your premises.

I think is she was his girlfriend or tormentor it would have come out in the news. I would be darn surprised if it was random, when it was in fact not.

I don't agree with blaming the victim. People just don't deserved to be pushed into trains.

---

As far as how many are getting locked up for involuntary treatment?

Hospitals, for example, as stated on this forum before, St. Elizabeth's Psychiatric Hospital had a peak inpatient population, now it is about 500. They are building a new hospital for 300, with 200 having to be discharged soon.

So, compared to the good ole days, before those SSRI's and anti-psychotic drugs that stopped catatonia and unrelenting psychosis ... it was worse. The simple question of, if all these people are forced into involuntary inpatient hospitals, there are no where to be seen in the numbers that the quoted websites that have been posted here.
Math, just simple math de-bunks that delusion.

As for standing back and allowing the illness to influence an individual to the point that they commit a jailable offence. That is working quite well. The mentally ill population in jail is rising at an impressive rate.

It is reported on every one of those MSNBC, and PBS Frontline, stories that the jails are the largest psychiatric facility in each county.

So for those mentally ill that have a violent profile, the price of freedom is a temporary free pass and a permenent negative solution to civil rights ... jail.

As far as you willing, or wanting to live next to a free to have their psychosis run its gamut that is commendable, I don't know if you neighbors would agree with you.

Anonymous:
Well, what's worse, mental institutions or jail?

There is growing evidence that SSRIs and other psychotic drugs are not the miracle they were hoped to be, and many distressed but not violent people, have committed suicide or homicide while taking them or upon withdrawal. Check the TTI thread on SSRIs for many such stories. Google SSRI + suicide/homicide.

You praise these miracle drugs for closing down mental hospitals and giving the 'MI' freedom, but if that's the case, why are "jails the largest psychiatric facilities in each county"?

There are no simple answers to human distress. The problem with addressing this on such a broad scale is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution, just as with the TTI, when many times people's distress is due to anti-life government policies. And consequently, many innocents end up drugged against their will because people like you live in fear of being pushed under a train by someone who you believe would not do such a thing if forced to take drugs. Just not the case. That person may do the very same thing while ON drugs. Just no way of telling how anyone will react to drug treatment. Many pot smokers are serving longer terms than the distressed individual who pushed someone into an oncoming train. And, for all we know, he may have been on drugs, but claimed he wasn't to bolster his defense of insanity.

Mental hospitals, jails- neither useful, both punitive/abusive environments. Holding tanks for the socially undesirable because few people know how to help a distressed person. And unfortunately, many innocents end up being thrown under the industry train. Where is your empathy for those 'victims'. "Oh well, some will be sacrificed in order to save me from the ocassional wigged-out killer"?

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/001658.html

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page