Hamas Palestine

[try another castle]

I do think the pullout was necessary, but only to validate Israel in the world's eyes when it comes to pass that Palestine will not renounce their terrorist ways. Once it becomes clear that they care nothing but for the elmination of Israel, even after they are no longer occupied and without an "oppressor", maybe the rest of the world will realize the truth of the matter. Maybe then the palestinians will no longer be looked at as "victims" whose terrorism is validated and excusable.

And then maybe, if they try to attack Israel as a sovereign nation, Israel can come in and kick their asses and kick them out of there once and for all, because they sure don't deserve their own land, as far as I'm concerned. I don't condone giving terrorists their own country and base of operations, with US taxpayer money going to fund it. (It certainly won't be the first time the US has done that.) Especially if that so-called country is determined to rid the world of Israel.

[webcrawler]

On 2006-01-31 08:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

I don't support the violence over there, but they want their land back and the right to self govern without Israeli occupation.

The land is no longer theirs. Sure, it's harsh, but it's reality. This past century has seen tens of millions of people displaced during many different wars. You don't see them blowing themselves up to reclaim 'their land' after border changes that were approved by the UN. What if Mexicans started coming across the border to blow themselves up inside Texas, claiming our victory over Santa Ana was a farse, how do you think Americans would respond? Or how about California, Arizona, New Mexico. Territories and land taken by war has been the standard for a LONG time. Why is Israel the exception? If Americans really believe the palestinians have any right to any land other than that of the original 1948 borders, they should also believe in giving back America to native americans. The native american anology barely stands though, because the palestinians left by choice. When the arab countries were about to invade the day after the UN approved Israel as a state, they told the pal's to leave and they could return and settle in the newly conquered terrority... after kicking all the Jews into the sea of course. If Israel followed the arab strategy of mass-murder and displacement, they could easily take over the entire land mass and kick the palestinians out into the sea! Why don't they? I don't know, but the arabs had no problem trying it. The arabs are pissed because they have always dominated the area.. now the western world does. Round and round this religious merry-go-round we go... where it stops, nobody knows!!"

Believe me I have thought about what you are talking about many times regarding Indians and Mexicans reclaiming their land. It would be frightening to say the least. Most of us are mixed with so many different ethnic backgrounds that we would have no "home" country to return to. It would be a nightmare.

Now I'm going to just say a few of my thoughts on the situation with Israel and the Palestians as I have been thinking about it for quite sometime. Mind you I do think everything you are saying makes sense whether or not I believe it to be the right thing.

This part of the Middle East has been under rule by numerous empires throughout history and it's likely conflicts will continue even after our deaths. However, the 6 Day War is more recent and therefore still in the forefront of people's minds versus the time period when Europeans first came to America to accquire the land.
 
Now saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.

Many people that identify as Palestians feel they are at war with Israel. I find suicide bombing deplorable, but I am also able to look at it from another angle. Meaning the Palestians doing this do not have the military resources as the Israeli Army so it is no suprise that they employ this type of warfare.

Personally, I believe war is trajic anytime, even if it's out of necessity. War brings death. The Western world has set the standards for what is fair in war and of course what the Palestians have been doing does not fit into those standards. When we really think about it though, dropping bombs out of the sky is just as horrible as suicide bombers. The govts and media of the Western world do a really good job of covering up the fact that when bombs drop from planes at supposed military targets they are in fact also killing innocent civilians. Israel, The United States, and the remaining Western world also have blood on their hands.

My aplogies for the long rant. I'm just really sitting here giving this a lot of thought and typing it out.

[try another castle]

Now saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.

But that's just it. It WASN'T their land. The land didn't really belong to anyone. It was a made up of a mixture of jews, jordinians, egyptians and syrians, with the jordinians, egyptians and syrians trying to kill and evict all of the jews from that area. (With the UK's help.)

As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves.

[webcrawler]

On 2006-01-31 19:33:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:

"

Now saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.

But that's just it. It WASN'T their land. The land didn't really belong to anyone. It was a made up of a mixture of jews, jordinians, egyptians and syrians, with the jordinians, egyptians and syrians trying to kill and evict all of the jews from that area. (With the UK's help.)



As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves.
"

You are right, there were many other ethnic groups. I do realize it wasn't until the war that many began to idenify themselves as a Palestian. Regarless of how they are indentifying themselves I am mainly making the point the people that inhabitated that land were unfairly displaced in my opinion.

I also believe it's unfair for every Palestian  there to have to suffer the repurcussions of what is going on between the two sides. The infracstructure of their cities are being bombed and bulldozed constantly and everyone of them is viewed as a potential terrorist. When my friend returns home to visit they must fly into Jordan and then take a crappy bus ride to the West Bank because Palestian men are not allowed to fly into Israel. I know my friend and her husband are not what people consider terrorists, yet they are treated like terrorists every time they return home.

I am also disgusted that people in Isreal are faced with having to fear for their lives every time they leave their house. With Arafat and Sharon out of the picture I don't know if it's going to get worse or better.

Both sides are at fault at this point. I really don't see this conflict ever ending. It's depressing to think about it along with all the other problems in the world. It seems the only way things will disapear is when the world's rulers decide to blow up the entire world.

[Anonymous]

Sand niggers. :wave:

[Anonymous]

It seems the only way things will disapear is when the world's rulers decide to blow up the entire world.

OR just the middle east. This conflict would have been solved LONG AGO if it were not for the influence of religion. It's like a bunch of school children unwilling to compromise. I've met people from both sides.. if they wanted peace they'd have it already.

[Antigen]

So what is it about the Palestinians that makes them so prone to violence? I saw a brief news clip of the newly elected Palestinian leader trying to answer the question of whether he'll condemn terrorism. He didn't say no, what he said was yes, provided you include in the definition terrorist acts committed by Israel against the Palestinians.

And, really, there are some very obvious factors here that people are afraid to even mention for fear of being called antisemitic. Remember the rallying cry to establish the state of Israel? "A land w/o a people for a people w/o a land!" Uh, no people in those lands? When, in all of recorded history, has Jerusalem ever been a ghost town? And who are all these angry people now claiming a right to self determination? Where did they come from, all these Palestinians who didn't exist a couple of generations ago?

It's not my call or yours what kind of government they want or which leaders they choose. I certainly wouldn't advocate Islamic theocracy (or any other theocracy) here in America. But they're not Americans, they're Palestinians. And the Israelis are not Semites, they're mostly European immigrants.

I just think there are two or more sides to any war.

There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312113668/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry

[try another castle]

Jan. 26, 2006 18:34 | Updated Jan. 27, 2006 4:53

Carter calls for funding Palestinians
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS
____________________________________

A day after Hamas swept to an upset victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, former US President Jimmy Carter on Thursday said that Wednesday's voting had been orderly and fair.

"The elections were completely honest, completely fair, completely safe and without violence," the former president said.

Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization.

"The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming," Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.

He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a Hamas-led government than the US and the EU should bypass the Palestinian Authority and provide the "much-needed" money to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels such as UN agencies.

"Regardless of the government, I would hope that potential donors find alternative means to be generous to the Palestinian people [even] if the donor decides to bypass the Palestinian government completely," Carter said, stressing that his main concern was to avert the "suffering" of the Palestinian people, which he said could lead to a new cycle of violence.

He noted that the heavily funded Palestinian Government would run out of money at the end of next month.

Hamas, the largest and most powerful of the Palestinian terror organizations, which advocates Israel's destruction, has carried out scores of bombings over the last five years of Palestinian violence, attacks which have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.

Earlier Thursday, Israeli statesman Shimon Peres had opined in a radio interview that international aid to a Hamas-led government would likely be terminated.

The former Democratic president's comments came as US President Bush said that Hamas cannot be a partner for Middle East peacemaking without renouncing violence, reiterating that the United States will not deal with Palestinian leaders who do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Carter, who has long supported the participation of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, voiced the hope that the Islamic terror group would act "responsibly" now that it had won the elections.

Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization.

"The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming," Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.

He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a Hamas-led government than the US and the EU should bypass the Palestinian Authority and provide the "much-needed" money to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels such as UN agencies.

"Regardless of the government, I would hope that potential donors find alternative means to be generous to the Palestinian people [even] if the donor decides to bypass the Palestinian government completely," Carter said, stressing that his main concern was to avert the "suffering" of the Palestinian people, which he said could lead to a new cycle of violence.

He noted that the heavily funded Palestinian Government would run out of money at the end of next month.

Hamas, the largest and most powerful of the Palestinian terror organizations, which advocates Israel's destruction, has carried out scores of bombings over the last five years of Palestinian violence, attacks which have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.

Earlier Thursday, Israeli statesman Shimon Peres had opined in a radio interview that international aid to a Hamas-led government would likely be terminated.

The former Democratic president's comments came as US President Bush said that Hamas cannot be a partner for Middle East peacemaking without renouncing violence, reiterating that the United States will not deal with Palestinian leaders who do not recognize Israel's right to exist.

Carter, who has long supported the participation of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, voiced the hope that the Islamic terror group would act "responsibly" now that it had won the elections.

"My hope is that as Hamas assumes a major role in the next government, whatever that might be, it will take a position on international standards of responsibility," he said at the news conference, held at an east Jerusalem hotel.

The 85-member election observers team, which was led by Carter, former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Blidt former Albanian President Rexhep Meidani and former Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio, included political and civic leaders from 22 countries around the world.

"It is now up to the elected leaders and representatives to construct genuinely democratic institutions and processes that will bring the peace and prosperity that the Palestinian people deserve, within a free and independent state," the group said in a preliminary report on the parliamentary elections issued Thursday.

"It is universally accepted that democratic elections and democratic governance are about employing peaceful means to achieve political goals," the report stated.
__________________________________________

Jimmy, I've lost all respect for you, dude. I had no idea you were that naive.

[Anonymous]

Source

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad published in European media surrounded EU offices in Gaza Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as outrage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.

About a dozen gunmen with ties to the Fatah Party approached the office of the EU Commission. Three jumped on the outer wall and the rest took up positions at the entrance.

In a statement read by one of the gunmen, the group demanded apologies from the governments of Norway, Denmark, France and Germany and called on Palestinians to boycott the products of these countries.

Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank city of Nablus said they were searching apartments for foreigners from several European countries to try to kidnap them to protest the drawings. The claim by the gunmen could not immediately be verified independently.

In a phone call to The Associated Press, a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, said members of his group are also asking hotel owners in the city not to host citizens of five European countries, including France and Denmark.

In Paris, the daily newspaper France Soir fired its managing editor after it republished the caricatures Wednesday, and Pakistani protesters chanting "Death to France!"

The furor over the drawings, which first ran in a Danish paper in September, cuts to the question of which is more sacred in the Western world � freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs. The cartoons include an image of Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.

Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet to prevent idolatry. The drawings have divided opinion within Europe and the Middle East, where they have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations against Danish facilities.

France Soir and several other European papers reprinted the pictures in a show of solidarity with the Danish daily.

----

They think THIS is how you get an apology? I think they underestimate the Western response to such actions.

/haven't seen the cartoon
//anyone have a link to it?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-02-01 09:37:00, Eudora wrote:

"So what is it about the Palestinians that makes them so prone to violence? I saw a brief news clip of the newly elected Palestinian leader trying to answer the question of whether he'll condemn terrorism. He didn't say no, what he said was yes, provided you include in the definition terrorist acts committed by Israel against the Palestinians.



And, really, there are some very obvious factors here that people are afraid to even mention for fear of being called antisemitic. Remember the rallying cry to establish the state of Israel? "A land w/o a people for a people w/o a land!" Uh, no people in those lands? When, in all of recorded history, has Jerusalem ever been a ghost town? And who are all these angry people now claiming a right to self determination? Where did they come from, all these Palestinians who didn't exist a couple of generations ago?



It's not my call or yours what kind of government they want or which leaders they choose. I certainly wouldn't advocate Islamic theocracy (or any other theocracy) here in America. But they're not Americans, they're Palestinians. And the Israelis are not Semites, they're mostly European immigrants.



I just think there are two or more sides to any war.

There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312113668/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry

"

well said !
I think there is plenty of hate and fear to go around in the middle east. One breeds the other.Its kinda like the "which came first.chicken or teh egg theory".

[teachback]

Thanks to all who posted. I knew when I started this thread six days ago that it would eventually generate some discussion here. In fact, I was a bit surprised that no one had touched on it at all before that.

[starry-eyed pirate]

I have a lot of thoughts about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but the issues are too complex for me to even begin posting on.

Having said that, I'll now say this:

I am not Jewish but I admire the Jews for their tenacity as a people.  I've read books on Jewish history and have read the Torah.  I have listened to Palestinian speakers. I have compassion for the Palestinians and the Jews.  Violence sucks.  I can't stand to see children sufferin'.  

I have to say I think George W. Bush is about the dimmest wit that ever led this countrys' government.  He is the King of all idiots!! His blatent hippocracy astounds me!!  He obviously believes in violence as a solution to the worlds' problems and yet states that Hamas, now the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people must renounce violence, if they want to be partners in peace!!  Now, in general I agree that violence does not promote peace, but in light of the U.S. occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention all the shit goin' down in Columbia. I have to wonder why it is acceptable for the U.S. to resort to violence but not acceptable for Hamas to resort to violence ??  The number of "innocent" civillians killed by Hamas is nothing compared to the "collateral damage" caused by the U.S. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.  If you ask me the U.S. government is a terrorist organization themselves.  Remember "Shock an' Awe" ??  

I'm just sick of all these groups and organizations and institutions and governments who espouse violence.  Why don't we just kill ever'one who believes in violence and then we'd have a peaceful world ??(kidding, of course)

From here I could go on into some long starry-eyed discourse on how the human race are all members of one family, and we should all renounce violence, not just Hamas and Al Qaida and the IRA and the Maoists in Nepal and ETA in Spain and the Chechans but also the Israelis and the Americans and the British and the Russians and the Chineese, etc.  Violence is terrorizing whether it comes from a daisy cutter bomb paid for by American taxpayers or a Palestinian girl who boards a bus in Tel-Aviv with explosives strapped to her body.  To distinguish between the 2 in such a way as to characterize one method as moral and the other as immoral is not only ignorant and assinine but insane.

At some point someones' got to be strong enough not to hit back.

Peace. For real!!!   ::dove::


_________________
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2006-02-02 15:14 ]

[Anonymous]

Marijuana is the key to peace. Elect some leaders who smoke marijuana -- and you'll have peace. And then a worldwide commission on finding the best damn pot in the world for everyone to enjoy!

[try another castle]

On 2006-02-02 07:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Source



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad published in European media surrounded EU offices in Gaza Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as outrage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.



About a dozen gunmen with ties to the Fatah Party approached the office of the EU Commission. Three jumped on the outer wall and the rest took up positions at the entrance.



In a statement read by one of the gunmen, the group demanded apologies from the governments of Norway, Denmark, France and Germany and called on Palestinians to boycott the products of these countries.



Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank city of Nablus said they were searching apartments for foreigners from several European countries to try to kidnap them to protest the drawings. The claim by the gunmen could not immediately be verified independently.



In a phone call to The Associated Press, a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, said members of his group are also asking hotel owners in the city not to host citizens of five European countries, including France and Denmark.



In Paris, the daily newspaper France Soir fired its managing editor after it republished the caricatures Wednesday, and Pakistani protesters chanting "Death to France!"



The furor over the drawings, which first ran in a Danish paper in September, cuts to the question of which is more sacred in the Western world � freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs. The cartoons include an image of Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.



Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet to prevent idolatry. The drawings have divided opinion within Europe and the Middle East, where they have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations against Danish facilities.



France Soir and several other European papers reprinted the pictures in a show of solidarity with the Danish daily.



----



They think THIS is how you get an apology? I think they underestimate the Western response to such actions.



/haven't seen the cartoon

//anyone have a link to it?





"

Yes, clearly this is a rational entity who is certainly qualified to taken seriously by other countries and should receive financial aid. Hell, man, we should let them join the UN while they are at it. (Not like there aren't any repressive, thug regimes already in the UN.)

[Anonymous]

this is the best image of the cartoons I could find



These seem light-hearted to me... I don't get what the big deal is. I've seen the Jew cartoons in Arab media and they are just as bad, if not worse. These people take their religion much too seriously if you ask me. Look how easily manipulated and angered they are because of it.  ::armed::