Author Topic: Another 73/74 Seedling Grad  (Read 21093 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2006, 11:57:00 AM »
Your compass analogy is accurate, and probably wouldn?t be challenged. Another way of say that is changing another?s thinking- perceptions/values/morals.

What is being argued everyday on Fornits is HOW any particular program goes about removing the old and installing the new, if it?s even necessary, and if the means justify the ends. Shocking, that True North for you and others is that the way programs do this is useful and humane.

Changing one?s thinking/belief (software) is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be useful,  particularly if the current programming runs something like, ?It?s okay to abuse kids in order to change their behavior/beliefs?. And you?re right, that thinking has been on the planet for a l-o-n-g time...despite overwhelming evidence that it?s not useful.  It?s disrespectful. Teaches how to ACT, not BE. Teaches through modeling, that utilizing force/abuse to gain what YOU want, to trample on the will of others, is appropriate.

If we look at prisons, which have been around since Day 1, it?s clear that incarceration/abuse/punishment is not a useful motivator of positive change. If we look at the reports compiled on RTCs, we see the same results. High ?recidivism?, because it is NOT a useful or ?effective? model for helping another find THEIR North.

While it may appear to create a positive change in some, the question must be asked- what caused the change? A genuine transformation.of the person?s thinking in a positive direction, or a response to fear? Many of us believe the latter. The appearance of change doesn?t justify what was done to get there.

The primary fault with this method is FORCE. You can not force someone to adopt your values/morals/thinking. It?s a lazy/ignorant way of going about it, even if your intentions are pure.

If I call a friend and tell her I?m coming for a week without tobacco, and ask her to support me in giving it up, that?s one thing.
But if she and some other friends kidnap me (for my own good), denied me tobacco, told me how worthless I was, what a looser I was for smoking, how my smoking was hurting everyone who loved me. If they physically restrained me when I attempted to leave or showed anger about being held against my will. If they denied me food or time in nature based on my mood any given day. If they denied me contact with family, friends, and the outside world (triggers to smoke). If they forced me to read ?motivational? books and watch gory films showing the effects to tobacco use. If they forced me to clean trashcans and toilets with a toothbrush for righteous indignation?. We could go on?.. I wouldn?t consider them friends and would consider filing charges, bring a lawsuit, as soon as I escaped. And I?d conclude that they had a motive other than wanting to give me a hand with my ?addiction?- like taking care of their own needs/fear/selfishness. If my family was funding the ?abduction? they?d be included in the suit.

Now if they were people I loved and they hijacked me but treated me well, with total love and positive regard? that type of intervention, I MIGHT appreciate, ONLY if done well. I would NOT want this ?help? from strangers, because it?s my belief that a stranger can?t provide the type of environment or intervention that I would appreciate.

Programs can not provide the latter type of ?intervention?. Too many unskilled people who don?t genuinely care about or have a vested interest in their charges. Too many sadists. Too many pedophiles. You can?t legislate love and positive regard. Given that reality, what option is available to ?helpers? in their quest to change (help) others?? Behavior modification- heavy on punishment, abuse, intimidation, humiliation. And the only ?reward? being- adoption of the forced values/thinking of the captors in order to regain your freedom.

In conclusion, it?s the moral compass of ?helpers? that needs to be adjusted. True North for me would be the end to the pathologizing and the commodification of adolescence (kids in general) and the rush to rescue/disable parents rather than help them to become better parents. It would look like the masses rising up and demanding better policies that supported families and kids. Doing what serves their kids rather than following the status quo. A return to a more rational, pro-life, way of living.

And this says nothing of the thousands and thousands of teens who were abducted and warehoused, who NEVER were in jeopardy of hurting themselves, whose ?compass? never needed adjustment, whose parent thought their own compass was pointing North, when in reality it was pointed due SOUTH.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline cleveland

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #76 on: January 10, 2006, 12:58:00 PM »
Great post Deborah. That is a very useful analogy.

I think the whole problem is an 'ends justifies the means' mentality. 'This is for your own good' - how often has that been used for evil?

Isn't it interesting that it is the Right that wants to enforce morality against one's will. What about limited government? In Maoist China it was the Left.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline marshall

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #77 on: January 10, 2006, 04:36:00 PM »
:nworthy:
Absolutely great post Deborah! How do we determine if the person or group that is determined to replace our compass or fix our morals, worldview, etc. has a compass that is accurate themselves? Who gets to say which way is north? The Inquisators were kindly trying to save the immortal souls of their victims. History & our world is full of those that 'know' what is right for everyone else and are willing to use force to bring it about. So many people want someone to direct them and tell them which way is up and this provides ready followers for those that seem certain of their own views. Ah, but 'question authority' was one of those hippie, druggie ideas that needed discarding in order to produce nice, compliant, conforming seedlings.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2007, 02:43:14 PM »
YEARS later (I'm a little slow sometimes)...
Try this:  you  'flunk' reality,
              'they' put you in theSeed.
              you 'flunk' theSeed,
              'they' give up.
              wtfit?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

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Offline GregFL

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2007, 09:38:56 AM »
Who are "they"? I have always wondered that.

Welcome to the forum 3X. I notice some of your posts. It seems you were there during the early days. Were you there after 1973?

Thanks for your participation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2007, 11:36:28 AM »
THANK-YOU for the acknowledgement.  It's good to b somewhere.
I left in August, 1973.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

"Fresh baked daily!"

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2007, 12:03:00 PM »
That is about the time I started. In fact, it was July of 73 in St. Petersburg.  I was there for about 8 months and then quickly detached.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2007, 05:01:23 PM »
Detached from what: theSeed; the world; yourself?:exclaim:   Sorry -couldn't resist-  I am an uncontrolable wise-ass.  Part of my defense...  
I'm still not sure who 'they' is.  It changes as you go thru life.
When you're 16, 'they' are people who have control and use it 'for your own good'.  If/When you grow into a position of control like that, i.e. become a parent/guardian, you become 'they'.
I've read alot of things that have stayed with me through my life:  I see alot of it here   8-)

"A little power in the wrong hands is a VERY dangerous thing."  
THAT one always makes me think of ART.  Love the pool story, by the way.

I started on Andrews Ave (me&JU).  Then one day, instead of Andrews, we went out to SR84.  (My story can't go there yet.  I still have Andrews stuff to tell!)  

I remember JU.  He GOT IT.  Made me want to 'get it'.  I never did.  Looked for IT everywhere for my whole life too.  There's a futility that comes with that 'cause at some point you realize you've always had IT...just needed 'the manual'...   NOT an oldcomer and a group of strangers talking to me as if they knew me;
 AS IF Art could really see into people.  I wanted that to be true more than anything else.  He could just look in my eyes and see what my problem was, I could fix it and we'll all be on our merry way.  

Back then Art led raps still.  And he was good. It was like being at a drive-in. He could see (when he looked@you, he SAW YOU) and EVERYONE else could see too, almost watch, like Art was a projector.  I remember JU being stood by Art during group one time. They 'worked on him' a looong time.  I remember being awestruck as I watched John begin to 'get it', as if things were dawning on him.  He was so different after that.

The part of me that's stuck in the 70's would still take that from the Art Barker I saw that day, if it meant I'd 'get it'.  He asked me once why I was soooo angry.  Why didn't he know?  Or worse:  not telling me and did know?  If you have a genuine gift (and I watched that, smelled that, could almost feel it myself) how could you not share it with everyone?

So at least 1/2 a dozen times Art and I were eye-to-eye.  I don't think I was impressed.  He regarded me suspiciously-always-and never did tell me anything 'enlightening'. That's when he lost me. Hell: little liar shattered me.


NOTE:  Tho' acknowledged, I resist the 'impulse' to use words like magical and mesmerized.

..."shiny, happy people..." Sounded like a song about 'group'@open meetings  :wave:

We will never really get to detach: our experiences prevent that, and they (the experiences :wink: ) will live at least as long as we do.

How does this stuff go on still?  Aren't there enough of 'us' to make a dent even?

Be back ASAP
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 05:22:33 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

"Fresh baked daily!"

Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Disclaimer
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2007, 05:13:20 PM »
Please do not mistake anything I post here as approval of or support for Art.  Where I come from guys like him sell bridges.  I don't own/want any bridges.  These are the deluded ramblings  of a former Seedling, nothing more. 8-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

"Fresh baked daily!"

Offline GregFL

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Re: Disclaimer
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2007, 09:01:09 AM »
Quote from: ""3xsaSeedling""
Please do not mistake anything I post here as approval of or support for Art.  Where I come from guys like him sell bridges.  I don't own/want any bridges.  These are the deluded ramblings  of a former Seedling, nothing more. 8-)


Actually, I detached from the seed, which caused my world to detach from me, and then led to me trying to re-attach to myself.  

Only took about 20 years!
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Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #85 on: August 07, 2007, 11:44:55 AM »
Exactly.
30-odd years later, for me.  As I said:  'I could've KEPT forgetting some of this!'
Re-hashing this junk.  Doing this here, with you guys, will either save me a fortune or push me right over the edge.
bb
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

"Fresh baked daily!"

Offline GregFL

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #86 on: August 07, 2007, 12:34:45 PM »
Well, admittedly it isn't the right thing for everyone to go thru this. I will say it was the right thing for me.  My seed experience had such a negative affect on my self worth and caused me to feel like such an outsider with 'normal' people, that dealing with it was ultimately one of the most important things I did as an adult
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2007, 11:00:02 AM »
Life may be short but it is also very wide, go around the yucky parts when you can

I love this one.  3xs
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Offline 3xsaSeedling

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Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2007, 05:08:36 PM »
the previous post is mine. :wink:
Y'all are gonna
I live w/my husband and son.  They want me to stop posting here because my preoccupation w/'this Seed stuff' is bothering them :exclaim:  yeahsureright

Art's attitude always made me feel less-than-worthy.  I remember a psychiatrist (If that was true) came through group one day picking out people to speak with.  He was denied access to me.  Here's the answer he got:  "...she just  wants attention; there's no problem with her."  
Now I 'get it'.  Art had decided that was my game. How perfect his solution to ignore me was.  How better for me to see how ignorant he really was.
After that I felt a bit disassociated from the group-different-in a place where everyone was the same-'cept me.  Then came the documentary.  
Here's when Art became theSeed.  I guess they need political support and money and found a way to get it.  He always was theSeed actually: without the 'person' of Art contributing, theSeed did eventually crumble, didn't it?  
Suddenly, Art only led some raps.  And he wasn't there all the time, anymore.  The mood changed too:  became institutional.  By the time SR84 opened, Art led only a few raps ( always open meetings.  I never even saw him at the end of my program.
bbasap
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Of all the things I\'ve ever lost, I miss my mind the most.
Wait...I found \'IT\'!!    
oh joy

"Fresh baked daily!"

Offline lllLIZlll

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Re: Another 73/74 Seedling Grad
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2008, 12:58:11 AM »
I hope somebody will see this post.  I decided today that I was going to try to find out if the Seed still existed.  I looked up the Seed and found the Mustard Seed in St Pete and called up.  It was a drug rehab, but not what I was looking for.  I just wanted to reach out and touch someone.  I have had dreams over the years about the Seed, still sing the song and smile.  Today I was trying to picture the staff and what they would look like at 55-65 years old and if they were still there.  I felt the Seed helped to change my life.  It brought an awareness that I didn't have and understanding of ME.  It helped me to sort out what was "truth" and find out who I was.  It was my first opportunity to find that I could be me and could have friends.  As I grew and learned from life's lessons, I was able to accept myself the way I am...well maybe just that I am weird and different, but that I don't have to try to fit in the "normal" mode.  During the many years that past after the Seed I would tell people that I was grateful for the Seed, but that if I "screwed up", I would NEVER go back.  I learned the lessons that have helped me to make choices for me and not to continue doing drugs and screwing up not only my life, but the lives of my children.  They know I did drugs, but they also know that drugs are bad!  I wonder what happened to Suzie, Amy (?), Billy the short guy with the blue VW bug.  I remember the bountiful meals we had at the Vero Beach Seed and then we went to Ft Lauderdale and had the PBJ sandwiches Monday thru Friday lunch Ham & cheese for Fridaynite/Saturday lunch and tuna fish for Saturday nite and I didn't eat on Sunday lunch because someone had gotten food poisoning.  Yes...Heck yes things were tough.  We had to deal with the human part of the program (the bad part)  pointing fingers at others before they could point them at you, being the kicked dog when the boss yelled at you.  I remember standing up for hours down in Miami (after getting home late) as punishment for not "being honest".  Going to bed at 2-3 am and then getting up at 6 to go to Hialeah to be dropped off before I was taken to the Seed.

I am glad someone else talked about being an outsider when the went back to visit.  I finally had a ride to go down there from Cocoa and I was so excited to be able to visit...It was horrible!  I was not welcomed.  I swear that they had changed it to look more like a prison and I never checked back again...except in my dreams. 

I also was there in 1974....April Fools Day, I went in got out just before graduation...talked to my boyfriend and got sent back.  Finally graduated the program sometime before January of 1975.

I hope that I can find someone that was in Vero Beach and got transferred down to Ft Lauderdale.  I really want to find another "Seedling".  I have read some of the posts, but I intend to go through all of them.  Thanks to all of you that have posted and those that will!!!!  Liz
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »