Another WWASP death

[Anonymous]

On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him,

Maybe its not the kid that's sick, maybe its the parents.

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-11 19:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

A parent sometimes gets to the point where they feel they cant help their son or daughter anymore or protect them from the choices they are making.  

Its no wonder parents feel that way....it's TRUE!  You can't[/b] protect them from choices they are making at some point.  That's one of the whole points that we're trying to make.  The only way to force someone to change against their will is to break them first.  Not a healthy option.

The only logical next step is to seek outside help, someone who can step in and help

Help is one thing, abuse and mindrape in a far off place at the hands of total strangers is quite another.

 There are kids dieing of overdoses, aids, running away never to return also,

Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe.  Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering.  

You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/7006/rulebook.html' target='_new'>John Adams

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-18 05:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:


If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him,

Maybe its not the kid that's sick, maybe its the parents."

Well I guess that is possible,  I think in most cases the parents know if a child is sick or not.  My uncle is a doctor and there are very few cases where the adult brings in a sick child and it turns out to be the adult.  I believe you are thinking of "manchunsian by proxy", not sure of the spelling, but I know what you mean.  I dont believe that applies because the adult (with this disorder) typically wants to be part of the care and shipping a child off would defeat the purpose of that desease.  So I would rule this out.

[TheWho]

**** Its no wonder parents feel that way....it's TRUE! You can't protect them from choices they are making at some point ****

If children are hurting themselves or heading down a path you know to be distructive, there has to be a way to intervene and turn it around.  The only reason the industry exists is because there is a need!! Someone needs to try and help them, if a solution did not exist someone would create one or at least attempt.

**** Help is one thing, abuse and mindrape in a far off place at the hands of total strangers is quite another ****

I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path

*****  Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****

Percentages we dont have, I disagree

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

If children are hurting themselves or heading down a path you know to be distructive, there has to be a way to intervene and turn it around.  The only reason the industry exists is because there is a need!!

And that's what would make you a prime target for these places.  There are a few reasons this industry exists, but need is not one of them.  There may be a perceived need, but its not reality.  Money, desire for guru status, well-intentioned but misguided samaritans, control....those are some of the main reasons this industry exists.

I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path



*****  Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****



Percentages we dont have, I disagree"

Yeah, I know.  The kid's gonna DIE without the program.  :roll:  Start here.   http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lib ... fax.htm#q3

?

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

[TheWho]

****  And that's what would make you a prime target for these places. There are a few reasons this industry exists, but need is not one of them. There may be a perceived need, but its not reality. Money, desire for guru status, well-intentioned but misguided samaritans, control....those are some of the main reasons this industry exists. ****

You can spin it anyway you want, but you are not going to walk into a car dealership unless you are looking for a car !!!  and people need cars.  The industry is needed by many and I agree abused and misrepresented by some.  But people are seeking help for their kids.


*****Yes, but those percentages are FAR lower than any of the TBS/RTC/Bootcamp/Wilderness programs will have you believe. Its all part and parcel of the fear mongering *****

Most parents are not concerned with cigarette smoking or alcohol,  they have a child in crisis, who is heading down a destructive path , who is harming themselves and their family.  This isnt a sales pitch that someone tells them, it is what they are living.
Now I agree that they may gets some bad advice on possible solutions.  Some of these places are not great for kids and not all kids belong in all of these places.  A parent needs to get themselves well informed before choosing a solution that fits their family

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-18 05:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

What I read is the person has tried everything they know to help their child and the family is still in crisis. I would disagree that very few families get to the point of having to ask for outside help to keep their children safe.

Really? What I read is that the parents have knocked on every door and rung every phone they know of and the consensus among local authorities, educators and professionals does not support locking the kid up. So, like a pill junkie shopping doctors, they keep at it till they find you to support their delusions.

How does this relate to not loving your child?

Oh, I didn't say they don't love their kids. I said their freaks for rejecting their kid in favor of a broken, tamed, shadow of their former selves.

If your child gets sick and you have exhausted everything you know of to help him, exhausted all your personal time at work to stay with him and he isnt getting any better or maybe getting worse, would it be unloving to seek outside help?

Look at the topic heading again. Do you still think these parents made the right choice for their kid? Do you really believe these programs are safer than the real world for the kids? I don't. The evidence doesn't bear it out.

Would you consider this shipping him off to like a dog?

Yeah, I do.

I'm a PATRIOT because I believe in the nations ability to un-fuck itself.
--Nihilanthic

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-18 06:59:00, Anonymous wrote:


You can spin it anyway you want, but you are not going to walk into a car dealership unless you are looking for a car !!!  and people need cars.  The industry is needed by many and I agree abused and misrepresented by some.  But people are seeking help for their kids.

No one needs that kind of "help".  The industry in not needed by many....maybe desired by parents looking for the magical fix for teen rebellion but this industry is not needed at all.

Most parents are not concerned with cigarette smoking or alcohol,  they have a child in crisis, who is heading down a destructive path , who is harming themselves and their family.  This isnt a sales pitch that someone tells them, it is what they are living.

Go look at any of the "warning signs" on the program websites.  They describe just about every teen on the planet.  Of COURSE its a sales pitch!  :roll:

Now I agree that they may gets some bad advice on possible solutions.  Some of these places are not great for kids and not all kids belong in all of these places.  A parent needs to get themselves well informed before choosing a solution that fits their family

"

A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid.  If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places.  Including doing nothing.  primum non nocere

If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness,
then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the HEMP it was written on.
http://www.thehemperor.net/' target='_new'>Terence McKenna, 1946-2000

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-11 07:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

 How would fornits be if kids had THAT power over you - imagine that- you you might get a small glimpse of what it's like being locked up at WWASP, obviously you have no idea judging by your comment above.

Nonexistant. I just wouldn't be a party to anything like that. How some ever... we do have one such program for the truely kool-aid drunk. Here's their web page:

http://fornits.com/SIBS/

Come in the evening, or come in the morning; Come when you 're looked for, or come without warning.
-- Thomas O. Davis (1814-1845): The Welcome.

[TheWho]

****  Would you consider this shipping him off to like a dog?
 

Yeah, I do.***

Antigen -- I think I want you to take a step back and recalibrate.  You really feel that anytime a child needs to be separated from from their parents for a sickness it is considered shipping them off.
You have gone from "Anti All programs" to just "antiparents".  Kids get sick, we have people in our church that have sent their kids here from overseas as burn victims and they cant afford to come themselves, so as you say they have "Ship them off"  I know they are loving parents because I have spoken to people who have met them and if they could be with their daughter they would have, but they would miss months of work and plane fare that amounts to 6 months pay for them.
Not everyone can solve their problem at home or be with them during treatment, I am just amazed that you take this position.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-18 05:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

I believe you are thinking of "manchunsian by proxy", not sure of the spelling, but I know what you mean.  I dont believe that applies because the adult (with this disorder) typically wants to be part of the care and shipping a child off would defeat the purpose of that desease.  So I would rule this out."

Yup! That's what the LGA seminars and local support groups are all about. Plus there's all the money and homework and all the rest. But, of course, the allegory doesn't strictly hold up. In the case of Munchausen (by proxy or not) the person is actively deceiving the professionals to make themselves or the victim appear or actually become sick. In the case of the troubled parent industry, the "professionals" (who are not actually professionals at all) fully support and even stoke the mark's delusions.

Understand this, too. There's a difference between lying and bullshitting. In order to tell a lie, you have to be aware of the truth and make a concious choice to say otherwise. Bullshitters just disregard the truth. That's what we're dealing with here.

The troubled parent industry is very like those silly chain letters you may get promising great luck or cash or good health or whatever if you follow the instructions and return the thing w/ a "donation". The difference is that that's a relatively harmless scam. It just costs a little money and makes the stoodge feel foolish (if, indeed, they ever do see through it) This scam is far more insideous. They actually mess w/ people's children and families on a profound level and on the false pretense of having some sort of expertise that they simply do not have.

There never was a good war or a bad peace.

--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path

Right, I know that. Been there, done it, got the tshirt and the chronic insomnea. People become vulnerable when they're scared. There's no greater love than that of a parent for their child and, likewise, no more gripping fear than that of a parent who believes their child is in danger. That kind of fear makes for some pretty stupid decisions. That's why we have bodies of tradition and convention backed by reems and volumes of law regarding the very sensitive, high risk relationship that exists between a therapist and a patient.

It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

The troubled parent industry scoffs at that. Why, if you think you've been slammed, you've been slammed. Never mind that it's nothing compared to what they do to kids for a living. If you lack apropriate confidence in your kid or harbour irrational fears about the big bad world we've made for them, why then that kid surely is in dire need of the most outrageous, extreme newage treatment on the market today. Even if you have no money to speak of, they can still find a place for you in the organization. You can become a recruiter or a facilitator. And they'll still be almost like a family to you even when the kid you sought to reprogram no longer talks to you or has come to some bad end. What a deal, eh?

Darlin, it's a scam. RUN!

With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[TheWho]

****  No one needs that kind of "help". The industry in not needed by many....maybe desired by parents looking for the magical fix for teen rebellion but this industry is not needed at all. ****

Most parents, I would suspect, dont desire to send their kids away and pay all that expense.  Its not a desire, it is a need.  I agree with you that most kids dont need to be there.

****Go look at any of the "warning signs" on the program websites. They describe just about every teen on the planet. Of COURSE its a sales pitch!  
****

But all parents are not looking at web sites to send their kids away.  How amny people really look at them?  By the time a parent starts to research this they already have a problem?  I have to believe that a very small number of parents are cruising the web, come across a programs web site and say "Hey my kid acts out a little, maybe we should spend $7,000 a month and pull him out of prep school and send him to this unaccredited place".  I just find it hard to believe but I am sure there are some so I wont argue that point.
Once you are looking for solutions to a known problem then yes, each web site will be selling their unique program strengths.

*** A parent needs to take responsibility for raising their own kid. If they really are honest to god that scared, there are far better options than these places. Including doing nothing. primum non nocere ****  

I have to disagree, turning your back and ignoring a problem will not make it go away, this would be irresponible parenting.  (you dont sound like you have kids)

[TheWho]

On 2006-01-18 08:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2006-01-18 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:


I agree most of these kids are getting the abuse and mindrapes at home by their friends or drug dealers, they dont need to be sent away for that, most parents are only looking to get them help and place them on a safe path

Right, I know that. Been there, done it, got the tshirt and the chronic insomnea. People become vulnerable when they're scared. There's no greater love than that of a parent for their child and, likewise, no more gripping fear than that of a parent who believes their child is in danger. That kind of fear makes for some pretty stupid decisions. That's why we have bodies of tradition and convention backed by reems and volumes of law regarding the very sensitive, high risk relationship that exists between a therapist and a patient.



It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.



The troubled parent industry scoffs at that. Why, if you think you've been slammed, you've been slammed. Never mind that it's nothing compared to what they do to kids for a living. If you lack apropriate confidence in your kid or harbour irrational fears about the big bad world we've made for them, why then that kid surely is in dire need of the most outrageous, extreme newage treatment on the market today. Even if you have no money to speak of, they can still find a place for you in the organization. You can become a recruiter or a facilitator. And they'll still be almost like a family to you even when the kid you sought to reprogram no longer talks to you or has come to some bad end. What a deal, eh?



Darlin, it's a scam. RUN!

With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

"

I could agree with all you say if I assume there is no problem and that it exists in the head of the parent only.  I also believe there are cases where this is true.  But I am talking about situations where the family is truly in crisis and the child needs help.  Whether it is the "Troubled parent" or "Troubled teen industry"  There is help that is needed.

If the problem is in the head of the parent then that needs to be addressed.  If the problem is in the head of the teen then that needs to be addressed or both.  But the problem needs to be identified and solved so that families can be healed and move towards a more healthy existance.

[WWFSMD]

On 2006-01-18 08:09:00, Anonymous wrote:


Most parents, I would suspect, dont desire to send their kids away and pay all that expense.  Its not a desire, it is a need.  I agree with you that most kids dont need to be there.

Then why the hell are they there?  That would suggest that the programs take in kids that don't need their "help".  Why would they do that?  Hmmmm, let's rack our brain trying to figure that one out.

But all parents are not looking at web sites to send their kids away.  How amny people really look at them?  By the time a parent starts to research this they already have a problem?  I have to believe that a very small number of parents are cruising the web, come across a programs web site and say "Hey my kid acts out a little, maybe we should spend $7,000 a month and pull him out of prep school and send him to this unaccredited place".  I just find it hard to believe but I am sure there are some so I wont argue that point.

Once you are looking for solutions to a known problem then yes, each web site will be selling their unique program strengths.

The attitude towards teens today makes it so easy to prey on vulnerable, scared parents.  Its not just the websites, its places like DFAF, programs like DARE, the hype and propoganda about drugs in the first place.

I have to disagree, turning your back and ignoring a problem will not make it go away, this would be irresponible parenting.  (you dont sound like you have kids)"

I didn't say ignore the problem.  What I'm saying is view and approach it realistically.  I do have kids.  If you've read much of anything I've written in these forums you'd find that I've posted about the nightmarish couple of years I had with one of mine (they're 20 & 18 now).  I understand all too well the sleepless nights, the waiting for 'the phone call', the rage in the house.  I watched this sweet kid turn into a smart-mouthed, hard partying, wreckless soul.  She went to live with dad for a bit adn he tried to clamp down on her, thinking if he could just get a little more control over her things would change.  He sent her to a bootcamp for a day and then held it over her head for about 6 months after that.  Tried to force her to AA/NA meetings.  The more he tried to force change on her, the harder she resisted.  She came back home to live with me after being threatened with being sent off.  We still had some rough times but I set realistic expectations for her.  I didn't freak out and panic at every poor decision.  I gave her room enough to figure out her place in the world.  It took a while but the more she ran headlong into the brick wall of natural consequences, the more she learned.  The hardest thing in the world for me to do was to stand back and let her fall.  Most[/b] kids survive teenhood relatively intact despite scaring the crap out of their parents.

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer