My Story...

[xvipah]

So that I can make my point of view clear, I'll tell my story in the LIFE program.  I'm not writing this to disagree or agree with anyone, I'm telling you what I saw and felt.  Maybe this well help a few of you understand why I feel as I do.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I'm not going to try to.

I had a serious drug problem, I was 15, 5 foot 10 inches tall, and I weighed 110 pounds when I went in.  I was doing crystal meth daily if I could get it, and anything else I could find short of crack or heroin otherwise, and I'm not sure that wouldn't have been too far down the road, but who knows.

It may be a cliche or whatever, but I do believe I'd have been dead or had brain damage before too long.  Is there a chance I could have just suddenly gained will power and self respect and stopped what I was doing before it got that far?  Yea I'm sure there is, anything can happen.

But what happened instead was my mother and father recognized I had a problem and did what they thought was best to help me fix it.  After my head finally cleared, about 30-45 days in the program, I came to a couple of realizations on my own:

1)  I had a bad problem with drugs.
2)  Being in the program was stopping me from doing drugs.
3)  If nothing else, getting off of the drugs was a damn good start.

So from there, I worked to get "straight" the program way.  As I said before I didn't like it and I didn't want to be there, I ran away once because I just wanted to read a book.  I didn't go far, I basically went out to the picnic tables right behind that Tervis Tumbler factory and read one of my old favorite books by the water there(we lived in Osprey, so I was real close to the program).  Once I had been there for a while I left and walked down the road and tried to take the road behind LIFE(ya know, the one that went by the Sherriff's Office?  :smile:  

I saw kids restrained, but I have to be honest, the only time I saw it was when they were already taking swings at staff or at other kids, or they got up and ran for the door.  From what I saw, no one was ever sat on, at least not their torso.  They would sit on their arms and legs, but there was, if I remember correctly, also someone there holding their head to stop them from hitting it on the floor or whatever.

I never saw anyone get hit, or pulled by the hair, or slapped.  Sometimes yes, they would be taken out of the main rap room to be restrained, anything could have happened back there, I can't speak for it, I wasn't there.  But the few times I DID go back as an oldcomer with a "misbehaver" we never once did anything but hold em down, and chat with em really.  Yea, some of the "chat" was program dogma, we were trained like any other oldcomer, but we would also just shoot the shit until it was time to go back.

While I was there the beltlooping thing was outlawed, oldcomers were only allowed to put their hand on the newcomers shoulders.  Even restraining was pared back quite a bit.  You had to really do something "bad" to get restrained, and then, almost immediately they would take you out of the rap room, and a lot of times they never came back.  So either they were terminated, or killed..

Not once did any of my oldcomers try any sort of "initiation" with me, and as an oldcomer I never did it with anyone else.

So, through all of that, I put up with the mental/psychological abuse, and I got through.  I thank the program for my life, just the fact that I have one.  Any successes I have had in my life are mine, the program got me drug free and instilled some confidence in me, and the Army did the rest, with, of course, my input and hard work.  

I don't think the program is responsible for me having a good life, I did that myself.  I just think the program helped me lay some of the groundwork, and I appreciate that, no matter how misguided/f'ed up their methods may have been.

Am I saying that I KNOW there was NO abuse?  Nope, a lot of things happened there that I didn't/couldn't see.  There could have been oldcomers who "initiated" newcomers and I just never had em.  Anything could have happened in raps I wasn't in, or in back rooms with "misbehavers" being restrained when I wasn't there.  

As I said, I can only speak from my experience, and that's really the bulk of it.

I don't doubt anyone who says they were abused, and who absolutely hates the program and what it did to them.  I don't doubt people were in there who shouldn't have been, I don't doubt things happened that shouldn't have, I can only tell you what happened to me and what I saw.  

I'll just say this.  I'm not here to argue with the anti program people or the pro program people.  I came here on "accident" and now I just think it's cool to be able to interact with people who went through the same place I did, no matter the differences in our experience.

So, I'll just say that while I harbor no ill will towards the program and my personal experience there I also harbor none towards those of you that do.

I'm hoping, if nothing else, I can make some new friends(even if they are internet friends  :smile:) otherwise, who knows, maybe I'll meet some people who were there when I was.

-Mike

Religions are all alike; founded upon fables and mythologies.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[Helena Handbasket]

Thank you for being the first one that I know of to approach this fairly and honestly.  We do have a difference of opinion though.  

But what happened instead was my mother and father recognized I had a problem and did what they thought was best to help me fix it.  After my head finally cleared, about 30-45 days in the program, I came to a couple of realizations on my own:



1)  I had a bad problem with drugs.

2)  Being in the program was stopping me from doing drugs.

3)  If nothing else, getting off of the drugs was a damn good start.

What about spending 30-45 days with qualified professionals if it was that bad?    

So from there, I worked to get "straight" the program way.  As I said before I didn't like it and I didn't want to be there, I ran away once because I just wanted to read a book.  I didn't go far, I basically went out to the picnic tables right behind that Tervis Tumbler factory and read one of my old favorite books by the water there(we lived in Osprey, so I was real close to the program).  Once I had been there for a while I left and walked down the road and tried to take the road behind LIFE(ya know, the one that went by the Sherriff's Office?  :wink:) a cop saw me, and brought me back.

This is the shit that makes my blood boil.  What therapeutic value is there to denying any reading material?  Furthermore... why is it compulsory that every kid attend school until they are at least 16, but this doesn't apply to places like LIFE?  

I was not restrained when I got in, I wasn't grilled, I changed my clothes and went back to group as a newcomer again, and was confronted within a few days.  From there I got through the program fairly quickly.

You weren't "grilled", but you were "confronted"?
Is there a difference?
I'm curious as to why you don't consider a confrontation over wanting to engage in an activity  - that's legal and perhaps even educational - abusive.

The issue of abuse, I have to tell you, never even occurred to me.  I think a lot depends on your definition of abuse, was I mentally abused?  Yes, probably so, as I said in that other post, I was humiliated just like anyone else was.  I was made to admit to things like masturbation(like any 15-17 year old boy not allowed to even look at a girl for months on end would do anything different) in front of both the girls and guys side like it was some sort of cardinal sin and I was a sick pig for doing it or thinking about it.  

Yes, you're right.  

You know why we argue so much around here?  Because this shit still goes on.  The MILITARY can't do half the shit they used to because it was ruled abusive and in some cases, unconstitutional (Don't quote me on this - I got this from my father, a Marine), but Kids Helping Kids is still going strong in Ohio, and Growing Together is still brainrinsing the minds of those incarcerated in South Florida.  Both of these are direct offshoots of LIFE.  Have you seen the article on GT?  The video of KHK?  

I won't argue that you're probably better off now than if you were chronic meth-head.  However, there are lives that have been ruined by by these programs.  

I didn't have my life wrecked by Petermann. I didn't even have my life wrecked by an abusive parent (and yes, it was clear abuse...I spent a few days in the ER).  I have had a lot of happiness and a lot of success, but I'm not going to credit the program or the beatings for any of it, and I'm certainly not going to stand by and watch a kid get the shit kicked outta him and think "Well golly gee... Mom did that to me too, and I turned out okay!"

So, that's where I'm coming from.

[xvipah]

I understand Helena, I'll try to answer your comments/questions as best I can.

What about spending 30-45 days with qualified professionals if it was that bad?

I agree with you actually, that's what "should" have happened.  I got extremely lucky that I didn't detox, because LIFE was not equipped to handle it.  However, that wasn't the course my parents chose so I dealt with what I was given to deal with.  It maybe wasn't the best option, but I give my parents credit for doing anything, a lot of my "druggie acquaintances"(ahhh, program dogma) had parents who didn't see or didn't care.  

This is the shit that makes my blood boil. What therapeutic value is there to denying any reading material? Furthermore... why is it compulsory that every kid attend school until they are at least 16, but this doesn't apply to places like LIFE?

I agree with you here too as far as the reading is concerned, hell I ran away just cause I wanted to read.  I understand the concept of "take away privileges to be earned back" but I believe as you do, reading probably shouldn't have been one of those privileges.

As far as school goes, I'm going to disagree.  The minute I made third phase, I was signed up to go to the alternative school in Sarasota.  I forget the name now, but basically it was a work at your own pace school, it allowed me to go and catch up with what I had missed from my time in the program.  Once I had caught up, I went back to Venice High School and graduated with the same class I had started 6th grade with at Venice Middle.

Heck, I even got dropped from 3rd to 2nd phase once(for the horrible crime of missing an RSA) and they didn't make me drop out of school, I still went during the day, every day.

You weren't "grilled", but you were "confronted"?
Is there a difference?
I'm curious as to why you don't consider a confrontation over wanting to engage in an activity - that's legal and perhaps even educational - abusive.

I think maybe I wasn't clear.  When I say I wasn't "grilled" I'm speaking strictly of the fact that when I went back in to the admittance room, no one screamed and yelled at me.  I wasn't told how stupid I was or what an idiot I was, or anything of that nature.  I came in, I changed my clothes, and I went back to group.

As far as being "confronted" goes.  It was in group, and I was stood up and asked why I ran.  I never said it wasn't "abusive" anywhere, it was another example of humiliation at work.  Maybe I minimized it, but that's because, in all honesty, confrontations were a fairly regular part of the program, and again, easily fall in the mental/psychological abuse category.

Yes, you're right.

You know why we argue so much around here? Because this shit still goes on. The MILITARY can't do half the shit they used to because it was ruled abusive and in some cases, unconstitutional (Don't quote me on this - I got this from my father, a Marine), but Kids Helping Kids is still going strong in Ohio, and Growing Together is still brainrinsing the minds of those incarcerated in South Florida. Both of these are direct offshoots of LIFE. Have you seen the article on GT? The video of KHK?

I won't argue that you're probably better off now than if you were chronic meth-head. However, there are lives that have been ruined by by these programs.

I didn't have my life wrecked by Petermann. I didn't even have my life wrecked by an abusive parent (and yes, it was clear abuse...I spent a few days in the ER). I have had a lot of happiness and a lot of success, but I'm not going to credit the program or the beatings for any of it, and I'm certainly not going to stand by and watch a kid get the shit kicked outta him and think "Well golly gee... Mom did that to me too, and I turned out okay!"

So, that's where I'm coming from.

I have seen the article on Growing Together, but no I haven't seen any video on KHK.  

And your father is right, the Military has had to tone itself down quite a bit, it's nowhere near as strict or hard as even when I went through basic in '92.

And as I said in this post, I don't doubt a single person who says their lives have been ruined by these programs.  I would never call someone a liar who says they were abused.  There's so much that could have happened there when I couldn't see it, or before and after I was there that there's just no way for me to come out and say, in any way, that LIFE didn't do those things.

My gratitude towards the program will probably never change, I know they helped me.  That doesn't mean that I can't see the truth of the abuses that have happened, or admit that it certainly wasn't/isn't the place for every kid.

The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.

http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/bingo.ram' target='_new'>BINGO!

[Anonymous]

Mike

  Your experience resinates true with many life partiticpants I know.  No abuse, it wasn't fun, but it did help.

  Thanks for posting.

  Another LIFE grad

[TimeBomb]

On 2005-12-10 17:50:00, xvipah wrote:

"So that I can make my point of view clear, I'll tell my story in the LIFE program.


...

I think perhaps I don't hold a grudge, because in many ways what LIFE did to me paled in comparison to what the Drill Sergeants did.  :smile:  

Lots of people have compared various programs with the military. But, the fact is, the people in the military are adults who have chosen to be there. And from what I understand, nowadays, you can even opt out and leave before basic training is even over. Also, the military is training people to fight and win wars. So the breaking down and building up serves a legitimate purpose.

I saw kids restrained, but I have to be honest, the only time I saw it was when they were already taking swings at staff or at other kids, or they got up and ran for the door.
"

And this was my biggest beef the whole time I was there. I know of no other (legal) institution where a person can be locked up without any due process whatsoever and then be prevented from leaving, under threat of restraint. The only reason I ever became a "misbehaver" was because I wanted to leave. And since you couldn't just walk away, the only people I ever saw actually get kicked out, were the ones that got violent. So, essentally, I was held for long hours in very painful restraint holds, simply because I wanted to leave a place that never should have been holding me in the first place.

Hell, you know the bullshit intake papers they made you sign? I never even signed those! They sat there for 4 hours trying to coerce me into it, and I simply didn't do it. But it really made no difference, because those papers were just a psychological tool to make you think that they really had some legal authority to hold you against your will.

But anyway, I'm glad you're not one of the hardcore "the program was just perfect" type of people. Thanks for being honest, and I hope you will continue to read and research what the Program has become, and still is today.

[xvipah]

Lots of people have compared various programs with the military. But, the fact is, the people in the military are adults who have chosen to be there. And from what I understand, nowadays, you can even opt out and leave before basic training is even over. Also, the military is training people to fight and win wars. So the breaking down and building up serves a legitimate purpose.

I can only say two things about this.

1)  I wasn't comparing the program to the Military.  I was IN both the Military and the program, and I was comparing my own personal experience in the program to my own personal experience in the Military.

2)  To say "They were adults who chose to be there" is a bit misleading.  I was no more "mature" when I was 18 and in the Army then I was when I was 17 and in the LIFE program.  Yes, I chose to be in the Military, but don't think for a minute that Army recruiters were any more upfront and honest about the Army then the LIFE people were about their program.

Hell, you know the bullshit intake papers they made you sign? I never even signed those! They sat there for 4 hours trying to coerce me into it, and I simply didn't do it. But it really made no difference, because those papers were just a psychological tool to make you think that they really had some legal authority to hold you against your will.

No actually, I don't have any clue what you're talking about  :smile:  When I say I was in a fog for the first month to month and a half, I'm not kidding.  I don't remember much of anything about the day I went in.

The drug war places Leo in a round room and instructs him to piss in a corner.
--Antigen