RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

[Awake]

Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."

Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.

Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?

Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699


.

do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".



...

are they not?  viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423


.

[Ursus]

Which equates to "I have a legally binding written agreement signed between ***** and Whooter stipulating non-disclosure of the legally binding agreement."

Exactly! or it could mean something completely different.  I think if you look at the date on the post you will see it occurred some time ago.

Ya know... "Exactly! or it could mean something completely different," does pretty much cover all possibilities, now doesn't it?

Ambigutiy in communication... not a new tactic by any means, but effective sometimes.  The Milton model in hypnosis and NLP is the most defined example of how and when to use this technique that I know of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_model

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30591&p=364699&hilit=nlp#p364699

do you mean ambiguity like.. "I was abused by the industry"... well who abused you?... "ah,no one specific,just the industry in general".... hmmm so the entire industry is responsible?...   "Exactly".

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

[Whooter]

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Belittle or discredit?  What do you mean?  comments Like saying: survivors  are only happy because they are brainwashed? .... Or drank the Kool-aid?  .....Give them a few years and they will realize how abused they were?

Oh wait that only applies to survivors who did well.  Ursus, I don’t think fornits posters, like yourself, would belittle or discredit these people.  Nor would they do this to program parents because that would impose a double standard.  I also dont think posters like yourself would point this out for just one of the groups and turning a blind eye to the others because this would make you complicit with the double standard.



...



...

[Ursus]

I'm afraid I haven't run across that conversation yet, Whooter. Care to provide a link?

Or was this another one of your attempts to belittle or discredit survivor accounts? Do tell.

Belittle or discredit?  What do you mean?  comments Like saying: survivors  are only happy because they are brainwashed? .... Or drank the Kool-aid?  .....Give them a few years and they will realize how abused they were?

Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.

Oh wait that only applies to survivors who did well.

Not true. There are plenty who did not do well, yet still guzzle that Kool-aid all too gustily.  

Ursus, I don’t think fornits posters, like yourself, would belittle or discredit these people.  Nor would they do this to program parents because that would impose a double standard.  I also dont think posters like yourself would point this out for just one of the groups and turning a blind eye to the others because this would make you complicit with the double standard.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. Care to spell it out a bit more?

[Whooter]

Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.

I believe this is what you tell yourself and what you need to believe because it would shake your world too much to realize the truth that most people do well in programs and move on with their lives.  If you ever tried to float this idea to any professional (or most people outside of fornits) you would be surprised by his/her response.



...

[Ursus]

Well... often, that *is* exactly what happens. When you first leave or exit a program, you are generally still interpreting "your reality" as defined by the ideological system in which you were recently immersed. This indoctrination often wears off over time and with exposure to the "real world," although not always.

I believe this is what you tell yourself and what you need to believe because it would shake your world too much to realize the truth that most people do well in programs and move on with their lives.  If you ever tried to float this idea to any professional (or most people outside of fornits) you would be surprised by his/her response.

Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.

[Whooter]

Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

That was nice, Ursus, but we both know there is no propaganda being spewed and there is no intent to derail the thread.  This is your interpretation of information which goes against your thinking.  Again with the fatal consequences.  I am sure if this were public school you would be showing us photos of columbine high School trying to convince us that kids will die if you send them to public school.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.

I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there.  It was a terrible summer.  But the difference between you and me  is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time.   The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life.  You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn.  This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else’s) or the children being helped.

I think it is good that you dig in and find out why your friend was hurt so bad and try to prevent others from getting hurt too.  But you need to gather more wide spread data, more of a balance so that you get a better perspective on what you are fighting.  You have reduced yourself to a point that you can discard a program if an employee worked previously at CEDU or you can toss aside a software program because IBM did business with the Germans in 1937.  This shows you are not really interested in finding the truth about how these individual programs work rather you just want a reason not to look too closely.  I think the reason for this is you will have to admit that they are graduating kids who are doing really well and the ones that don’t do well are the anomaly.

I am also curious as to why would you not acknowledge that it is a good step for a program to open up a discussion with alumnus to gather feedback on the program?  I know from reading here on fornits that this would be a big step for a cult.  What is everyone afraid of?  Are you afraid that you will find out that these are not the big bad programs that you have created here on the forum?



...

[maruska]

Classic Whooter-style: derail the difficult questions by attacking the questioner with attempts at invalidating their experience or perspective.

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

That was nice, Ursus, but we both know there is no propaganda being spewed and there is no intent to derail the thread.  This is your interpretation of information which goes against your thinking.  Again with the fatal consequences.  I am sure if this were public school you would be showing us photos of columbine high School trying to convince us that kids will die if you send them to public school.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

Or does it simply boil down to a question of dollars and cents for you? Or, perhaps, a rationalization of your own now irrevocable choices made in the past?

Credo of behavioral and mental health professionals: First, Do No Harm.

I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there.  It was a terrible summer.  But the difference between you and me  is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time.   The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life.  You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn.  This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else’s) or the children being helped.

I think it is good that you dig in and find out why your friend was hurt so bad and try to prevent others from getting hurt too.  But you need to gather more wide spread data, more of a balance so that you get a better perspective on what you are fighting.  You have reduced yourself to a point that you can discard a program if an employee worked previously at CEDU or you can toss aside a software program because IBM did business with the Germans in 1937.  This shows you are not really interested in finding the truth about how these individual programs work rather you just want a reason not to look too closely.  I think the reason for this is you will have to admit that they are graduating kids who are doing really well and the ones that don’t do well are the anomaly.

I am also curious as to why would you not acknowledge that it is a good step for a program to open up a discussion with alumnus to gather feedback on the program?  I know from reading here on fornits that this would be a big step for a cult.  What is everyone afraid of?  Are you afraid that you will find out that these are not the big bad programs that you have created here on the forum?



...

Now I am confused again...would you explain what are you talking about?
 Did you work for a program? Or were you in a program as a child?

[maruska]

I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.

I know exactly what you mean.  If I didn’t have a need for programs I would never send my child to one.  Take hospitals for example, people get all types of diseases from blood transfusions, viruses in operating rooms and germs on the waiting room.  I don’t think I could find one hospital in the country I would want any of my family members in.  But if I were faced with the decision of having to take them to one I would do it.
I tried getting people interested in rating programs here on fornits but no one was interested and many got outright upset when I posted programs I thought were good.  So I will take a pass on naming any for both out sakes.  As far as the blogs go I don’t keep a list of favorites.   I sometimes google a program name or key word and discover blogs that way.

Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)

There were a few that she has kept in contact with, but with this facebook program that she uses she has connected with lots of people she lost touch with including staff.  This also gave her an opportunity to meet other people who went thru ASR who she never met before.

And lastly...what is DJ talking about? What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? " What does that mean?

Ha,Ha,Ha oh boy, you will have to go speak to DJ about that.  If you look at the bottom of his posts you will see he has created a little altar (tongue in cheek) to me in his footer.  His project is my history here on fornits and trying to make his own sense out of various sound bites I have made over the years.  I couldn’t begin to explain them here for you because I dont remember most of them, but if you are interested you can go back and read via DJ’s links in his footer (just click on one).  But you need to go back several pages to understand the gist of the conversation so that they are understood in context if that interests you.



...

You could not find one hospital in the country you would want any of your family members in?  I am sorry to hear that. I did not know the US health system is so terrible...move to Europe! You will find plenty of great hospitals here!

As far as blogs...come one! Please, name a few! I really am not as good at finding them obviously  Thanks in advance!

And regarding going back several pages, I do not have time for that...

[Whooter]

You could not find one hospital in the country you would want any of your family members in?  I am sorry to hear that. I did not know the US health system is so terrible...move to Europe! You will find plenty of great hospitals here!

As far as blogs...come one! Please, name a few! I really am not as good at finding them obviously  Thanks in advance!

And regarding going back several pages, I do not have time for that...

The health Care we get here is good (well at least now, we will see what Obama care does lol), but the risk of infection and disease is very high for those entering or staying at a hospital because hospitals are not the cleanest places.  So if you can avoid them you should.  Europe is much worse off than we are…Link to an article

I don’t really want to read back either but I think the point was that no one wants to place their child into a program any more than they would want to put their child into a hospital.  But the decision is based on need and we do what we have to to keep our families safe.



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[maruska]

I do not want to make this to a pissing contest , but this is interesting reading too:

http://www.americansmadandangry.org/



and the blogs, Whooter...pretty pretty please:))

and I really do not understand this (from your conversation with Ursus):
I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time....what are talking about here?!.."my time there"? does that mean you were in a program, too?? ..as a staff?

[Whooter]

I do not want to make this to a pissing contest , but this is interesting reading too:

http://www.americansmadandangry.org/

That is interesting.  I think we can both agree that avoiding hospitals if at all possible is a good thing.

and the blogs, Whooter...pretty pretty please:))

Sorry, I dont have any active links for you, but when I do I will pass them along, promise.

and also this:
I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time....what are talking about here?

Oh,  I was with a group for the summer when I was young and one of the kids I was with and made friends with was badly hurt after having a fight with a counselor.  



...

[Ursus]

and also this:

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me, I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper. Doncha think?

I have experienced someone being hurt severely and it did taint my recollection of my time there. It was a terrible summer. But the difference between you and me is I can see that other kids in my group had a good time. The terrible event didn’t warp my entire perception on life. You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn. This is a short coming of yours (not mine or everyone else's) or the children being helped.

what are talking about here?

Oh,  I was with a group for the summer when I was young and one of the kids I was with and made friends with was badly hurt after having a fight with a counselor.

I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?

Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:

"You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."[/list]
Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.

[Whooter]

I was hoping this wasn't another of your comparisons of program with summer camp. Care to spell it out a bit more explicitly, Whooter?

You get upset when I compare programs to summer camp yet it is acceptable to compare programs to Russian gulags and cults?  Hmmm

Also, please provide a link to where I allegedly provided you with the grist for this statement:
"You stated yourself that you cannot relate at all to all these kids who do well in programs and you cannot understand what life lesson they learn."
Since I cannot remember saying such a thing (as written), nor even recognize that statement (as written), it appears, IF indeed I said such a thing, that you have taken it grossly out of context.

Look above (previous post) where you said:
“One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

But even without the quote it is evident, via your postings,  that you cannot relate to kids who do well in programs.



...

[DannyB II]

Ursus wrote:

Sorry, Whooter, I really don't need to believe anything, and whichever way it was or is ... is not going to "shake my world too much" one way or another at this point. It is what it is, and perhaps it's time that you came to terms with the fact that the propaganda that you spew is not a harmless moneymaker or stock price booster but in fact, fraudulent advertising for programs that affect some kids and their families in very real, tangible, and not in the least bit beneficial ways. And sometimes, with all too fatal consequences.

Jeesh, you have no personal experience with fraudulent advertising that I have read and you have no personal experience of the "all too fatal consequences". I could be wrong, did your parents feel deceived and was their a death at Hyde while you were there.

One really has to wonder about what sort of life lessons these kids' peers learn, the ones who ostensibly "do well in programs and move on with their lives."

This is not something you are using any energy to find out, that's for sure. So what is this a rhetorical statement/question

I dunno 'bout you, but if a peer of mine in program were to die or even to suffer long term trauma as a direct result of the "programming" we were subjected to... it wouldn't matter how "great" a time I had, the experience would be seriously tainted for me.

You have no personal experience with this, so your whole statement is speculative. You don't know this.
Hmmmmm.........drama.

And if I had any kind of moral backbone in me.......

You said it.....IF

I would probably begin to seriously QUESTION the veracity of said methodologies used. And probably also the ideology behind it as well, as I got in deeper

.
What I have seen of you over the last 6 months I would agree with this under one condition you tone down the drama....you are looking deeper into it right now, although I don't feel all this heartfelt emotion your trying to convey.

Doncha think?

It depends......

danny