The Things Parents Do

[OverLord]

So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family. Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there. Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue. The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.
Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.

I, for one, think you are crazy. If you are even considering these programs listed on fornits, I pity you, and especially your family. Good luck, you'll need it.  ::blushing::

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"***Your data and assumptions are very misleading and statistically meaningless. Only 150 people died in the last few hundred years in Military and Religious placements? believable? and 6 children die inside the industry schools per year. Is that good or bad?



Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously  have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.



Doesn?t matter a whit ?how many are saved?.  Parents know the risks associated with driving, football, etc. They and/or their kid choose to participate in those ?risky? activities? just as they choose to eat McDonalds and risk heart disease.



The point that elludes you is:

NO FORM OF THERAPY should subject kids to the risk of injury or death. Period. There is no justification for it.



I wonder how many parents mused, ?He might get killed in a therapeutic treatment environment, but the risk seems less than dying on the streets? I?m guessing that not one of them contemplated their kid being killed in an ?emotional growth? program.



Yes, by all means, let?s keep it real and fact based. Please post up the names you feel are fake because I would love to rip you to shreds. Your fucking arrogant, know-it-all program attitude is disgusting. Show some respect for the dead and their families.

"

My name is ANON just like you, but I think our similarities end there.  Sorry to Rile things up a tad, not my meaning.  Just looking for some facts to hang our hats on, base some decisions on.  Seems like we could be knee jerking to each occurrence without looking at the whole picture.  For instance are you 5, 10, 25, 100 times more likely to be abused or die in a therapeutic boarding school or are you less likely then say, a private school or vs. letting your kid leave and live on the street.  Are drug dealers killing more kids than schools?  Are public schools killing less of our kids and if so why?  Which kids are at risk, which schools should be monitored or shut down, how do we make those decisions..  How many kids do well ? I think we need to answer these questions and more before we can present any data to potential parents who are going to consider sending there kids there.  Its called an informed decision!!!![ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-02-20 12:18 ]

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 11:47:00, OverLord wrote:

"

So your the type that follows whats popular, I need more than that to make decisions for myself and family. Sorry you are so angry, I am sure you have good reason, but following something because it is popular isnt going to benefit you in the long run, I've been there. Do some homework (pros and cons) and base your decisions on some hard data, especially if it is an important decision or issue. The data exists, you just have to do a little work to find it.

Okay "Slap" I'll stop preaching.

I, for one, think you are crazy. If you are even considering these programs listed on fornits, I pity you, and especially your family. Good luck, you'll need it.  ::blushing:: "

No I am not considering, but thanks for the thoughtful note of those needing pity, I could have used that years ago.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:Who the fuck are you? Why should anyone believe that you ?know? those statistics are misleading and meaningless? In your haste to respond you misunderstood. 150+ kids have died in programs/boot camps/wilderness since 1980. That?s an average of 6 per year. You obviously have seen the list of dead. Prove any name on any list is fake. Google the kids names and read the articles that return. Real simple, but time consuming, if you are vaguely interested in the truth.


I'm not the one who wrote the post you're responding (reacting) to, but the problem is that the lists out there aren't even accurate. Real kids, real deaths, but most of them didn't die at programs. And it's a huge error to assume newspaper articles are true. All of them have some slant, and I'd estimate half or more have factual errors.

[TheWho]

In the US public school system for students ages 12-18 years of age between 30 and 60 students out of every 1,000 are victims of a violent crime while on the school premises each year since 1993.

Thats roughly 3 to 6 percent.


For the school year 1999-2000 there were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides in our school systems.  I dont have the ratio that goes along with that, but I am trying to locate it.

Its a start to see how the schools stack up.  We should try to locate similar data for Private schools (non boarding) and then Boarding schools.

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 16:27:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In the US public school system for students ages 12-18 years of age between 30 and 60 students out of every 1,000 are victims of a violent crime while on the school premises each year since 1993.



Thats roughly 3 to 6 percent.





For the school year 1999-2000 there were 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides in our school systems.  I dont have the ratio that goes along with that, but I am trying to locate it.



Its a start to see how the schools stack up.  We should try to locate similar data for Private schools (non boarding) and then Boarding schools.

"

Wow where did you get that, its great!!!  So what we can do is figure out how many students are attending various schools and start comparing the data.  It isnt going to be totally comparable, apples and Apples but its a start.  We pull this together and submit it to the local congressmen where the schools exist.  This way we dont look like we are a bunch of kids just bitchin about our own lives.

[Fake Parent Troll]

How can I help? I am a lawyer.

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 17:10:00, KarenInDallas wrote:

"How can I help? I am a lawyer. "

Great -- A start would be to figure how many students attended various boarding schools and get a rough idea how many were killed or victims of violent crimes.  If violent crimes are above 6% or death rate above the national average then we should proceed forward to figure out why and start pushing for changes.  If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different.  Either way it would clear up a lot of controversy on this board as to whether these schools are more or less abusive than some defined standard.  We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know.  I will continue to search for data and post what I find, if anyone wants to jump in and contribute what they know (attendance figures, abuse alligations, deaths etc.)that would be great.  I am sure that we can compile some data from archive in this database.  I will look around, thanks

[Anonymous]

***If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different.

Like holding kids like prisoners?
Parents might also decrease their kids risk of injury or death by locking them in away from all the 'dangers' in the world.

While we're comparing, we could also compare the number of kids who die in their therapist's office to the number of kids who die while in residential bm programs.

[Anonymous]

We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know.

Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth. You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials. You say statistics will solve this debate? Get fucking real. These programs ARE abusive and murderous.

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 17:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"***If its lower than 6% well I guess we should see what the TBS are doing different.



Like holding kids like prisoners?

Parents might also decrease their kids risk of injury or death by locking them in away from all the 'dangers' in the world.



While we're comparing, we could also compare the number of kids who die in their therapist's office to the number of kids who die while in residential bm programs.



"

Thats exactly what I am saying, start comparing and see where the similarities are.  Lets not preclude what we may find.  Locking kids away is not a solution, you should know better than to say that.  Wouldnt we be better served to be able to say something like:"Nationally 6% of children are subjected to violent crimes in public schools while Private Boarding schools are showing an 8% occurance....etc" These are things people can react to and measure, compare school to school, institution to institution, are we improving or getting worse etc.  Which schools need to be monitored..... If we saw value in measuring the number of kids who die in doctors offices vs the boarding schools, that could be done but I dont see the value at this point, but I am sure the data is available.  This can bring about the change that everyone seems to want!!

[TheWho]

On 2005-11-22 18:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

We get tons of individual opinions but no hard data, so we really dont know.

Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth. You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials. You say statistics will solve this debate? Get fucking real. These programs ARE abusive and murderous. "

***You believe the lies from the program's marketing materials ***, No I dont, that is why we need to do this, put the facts in front of everyone.  Can we stand in front of a committee and say "I heard of this guy who was killed last year and I talked to 2 others who said they were beat up by their counselors etc.."  They would all leave for lunch, you need to put it together.
***Those who have been to a wwasp or similar gulag do know the truth.***
Great, lets get it out there to the people who can make a difference and put it in a form they are use to and can present to their people.

[Antigen]

On 2005-11-22 19:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
Wouldnt we be better served to be able to say something like:"Nationally 6% of children are subjected to violent crimes in public schools while Private Boarding schools are showing an 8% occurance....etc" These are things people can react to and measure, compare school to school, institution to institution, are we improving or getting worse etc.

Uh, guys? One minor flaw. We don't have any way of knowing what the incidence of vilent crimes are in private schools. We only know what they report. In public schools, the kids themselves can go outside the institution every day and sing like a bird. In a TBS? They simply don't report themselves nor allow the kids to.

Then, the kids get out of the program and out from under dependency on their parents. Then a few years later when they slow down on "celebrating" their final and hard won freedom, then they start talking. And then program supporters mock them by demanding evidence that they themselves are withholding.

It's just like the schoolyard bully who is always polite to the teachers. "Oh yeah? Ga' head and tell! Who will believe you?"

The nature of psychological compulsion is such that those who act under constraint remain under the impression that they are acting on their own initiative. The victim of mind-manipulation does not know that he is a victim. To him the walls of his prison are invisible, and he believes himself to be free. That he is not free is apparent only to other people. His servitude is strictly objective.




--Brave New World Revisited, Aldous Huxley, 1958

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[TheWho]

We can pull some of the info from this board and the deaths cant be hidden for too long.  If the death rate is extremely higher than the national average than it may raise an eyebrow with the right people.  I am sure if a violent crime was committed the kid would eventually report it.  We could do some searchs and bounce it off what people saw here to validate it, weigh its possible use and so on.  Worth a try.

[Antigen]

"I am sure if a violent crime was committed the kid would eventually report it. "

Nope. These programs are very effective, ya know. When I was fighting through the courts to stay out of Straight just prior to coming of age, I didn't understand that what I had seen and had been done to me was abuse. They asked, I said no, not really abuse. I believed at that time that I got sat on for a couple of hours by 4 - 6 girls on staff's order because I deserved it. My crime had been refusing to apologize to Group for running away. Not cussing, far less hurting anybody. Just saying I wasn't sorry, I wanted out and didn't want or need any more "help". That was after well over a year.

I doubt we even find out about all of the deaths. We only hear about it if the media picks up on it. The parents don't usually tell everybody. The parents usually blame the kid.

Here's what one WWASP mother said to a reporter after her son shot himself in the head while they were arguing over his getting sent back for some minor or perceived infraction or other:
"Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier"

http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml

So any study would have to be done like a criminal investigation. There would have to be enforcement of reporting requirements w/ teeth and a baseball bat when necessary. Kids would have to have practical, useful access to not only the outside world, but free time to relax, think for themselves, recreate, chat with friends outside of the institution, etc.

For all that to happen, we have to dispel the pervasive belief that teenagers are vile and violent animals who can't be trusted and should not be believed. Or at LEAST the one that they should be locked up incommunicado w/o criminal conviction.

Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"  Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]