Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

note to Jupiter Survivor

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marcwordsmith:
Hey Jupiter,

I was moved by what you wrote in the opening post on your thread, and I just want to say a couple of things in response to that posting.

First, you no longer need validation from Seed staff about what your experience was, or about what your reality was. When you were in the Seed, you needed staff and your oldcomer to "validate" your reality because they had physical dominion over you. But that authority was circumstantial; it wasn't based on any superior intellectual or moral development. Sometimes it's hard to dethrone the authority figures in our heads, the people who once had control over us, whether they were parents or teachers or Seed staff. Even when we know better, a strong emotional imprint may linger concerning authority figures that have effected us. But at least we can be aware that those feelings are not rational. Former Seed staff members have their own problems now, as they did then. They are not, and they never were, oracles to tell us which of our emotions and perceptions are real.

I also want to say that the story about your big Navy brother who offered to bust you out of the Seed if you would "just say the word" really touched me deeply. But, if I may be so presumptuous, I have a different interpretation of that story. (I know, I know; I have no right to interpret your reality either! This is just a theory!) You say you were "programmed" at that point to tell him you "needed" the Seed. I think that may be true as far as it goes; we were all a little programmed not to say anything that might betray our lack of appreciation for the wonderful Seed.

At the same time though, here's what I think was going on even underneath that "programming."

Tough as your brother was, I doubt he could have busted you out of there. The Seed thrived on that kind of physical high drama, and he was vastly outnumbered in that situation. So what was more likely to have happened, if you had "given him the word," is that your brother would have been physically, painfully subdued by several Seed staffers and oldcomers ganging up on him, and he might have faced legal charges that would have gotten him into trouble. (And how sickeningly horrible might it have been if he'd wound up being sentenced to the Seed!) And you, Jupiter, would have been started over, with new levels of hostility and retribution directed toward you.

So what may have looked and felt like weakness on your part in that situation was actually a kind of heroism. Your brother, who adored you, couldn't stand to see you suffering and he would have done anything to get you out of there. But you didn't want him to have to suffer either, especially if it was to no avail. You had no glamorous choices in that situation. You made an unselfish decision, sickening as it was.

GregFL:
You are so right Marc.

I had a similar circumstance and also said no..here is what happened to me.

After my mother's attempt to get me out of the seed failed because of the Judge's lie about me admitting to needing the seed in open court, my mom and her husband would drive the 6 plus hours one way to the seed from Ft Lauderdale for open meetings and of course, not be allowed to talk to us and be belittled, humiliated  and yelled at in the parking lot by the other seed loyal parents.  Then they would turn around and drive back.  They would hand the Mike to my mom at open meeting and she would try to smile, then just usually break down and cry.  After open meeting her and her husband would turn around and drive back to Ft Lauderdale, arriving often just in time to get dressed to go to work. It was  tiring, frustrating, humiliating and emotionally devestating for my mother, who was not emotionally equipped to handle such trauma.

After about a month I got permission to see my mother "alone" which involved going to the edge of the parking lot with her,my sister, and her husband and standing by her car. The open meeting was still going on inside.  

My step father, a very quiet guy that had recently had a throat operation, leaned over to me and said "greg, we can make a run for it right now, you just have to get in the car".

Now, I would have loved to go but all the circumstances flashed into my mind. Was this a set up? Was a squad car hovering just outta site? Staff members watching? I had seen kids escape and the police bring them back without court orders. I knew the ramifications of getting caught and I knew the chief of police and the judge's kids were all sitting right over THERE in group.

I smiled at my step father and told him, "no thanks".

marcwordsmith:
A similar thing happened to me as well, Greg.

My sister escaped from the Seed on her third day, and as luck would have it, a kindly person who picked her up hitchhiking drove her to a benign halfway house for girls in Perrine. And at first, when the staff at the halfway house contacted my parents, my parents agreed to let my sister stay there. (Later they tried to bring her forcibly to the Seed through the courts, but failed. That's another story.)

Anyway, the Seed, upon hearing that my parents were leaving my sister to "another rehab", told my mom she'd have to take me out of the program too. So, on my seventh or eighth day, I was called out of the group and into the intake office, where my mom was throwing a fit and screaming at all the staff members. She got right in Art's face (among others). The gist of what she was shouting was something like "I will continue to crusade for your program, because your program is the best one, but I will go to every newspaper and tell them that you're forcing my son out!"

The Seed relented and kept me. But Susie Barker (whom I think of with great fondness to this day and I hope she is well and happy wherever she is) was worried about me, because she perceived that my mom was a little nuts. So after I was returned to the group, Susie B. called me out again to talk with me and "make sure I was all right." She was a very sweet young woman! At that point, I knew not to say too strongly that the Seed was not appropriate for me, but I did make my case. I told her that though I had used pot a few times, drugs were not really my thing, I was a good student, and I had a straight attitude, and though the Seed was obviously a terrific place and oh, I had learned a lot just by being there a week, I did not belong there. And as for my mom, I knew how to deal with her; I'd been handling her and her histrionics my whole life. Susie was sweet but firm; she indicated that she thought I should stay in the group all the same, because I had tried pot. But there was also something different, something humane going on with her that I hadn't encountered before in the Seed with my oldcomer or staff.

So the next day, Susie pulled me out of group again and said, "I would like to you talk with Dr. K--" (was it Kaiser? I only remember his name started with a K) This guy, the "Seed psychiatrist" politely told me to have a seat and began asking me questions about my life for five minutes or so in a rambling sort of way. At one point I leaned across the desk a little and saw that he was jotting down all my answers in some kind of shorthand on a big note pad. At this point he looked up at me with a kind of embarrassed sickly smile that I could not interpret. And he asked, "Well Marc, supposing I were to give you the choice, right now, to go home or stay, what would you do?"

And of course I had the same reaction you did, Greg. Was this a trap? He was asking a hypothetical question. I didn't hear it as an actual offer. I didn't want to appear too enthusiastic about leaving the Seed. The honest answer was "GOD YES PLEASE!" But what passed my lips was, "I don't know . . ."

So he smiled again and said, "I think you should stick with it," and that was that.

A few minutes later, in the group, it dawned on me that he had really been offering me a chance, and my head swam in self-disgust and horror.

GregFL:
How old were you Marc?

And, how many remember them standing kids up and asking them, Do you think you need to be here? And then when they gave a reasoned explanation as to why they didn't need the seed, they got chewed up, spit out, cursed out and maybe even thrown back on the front row.

There was ALWAYS a correct answer to those loaded questions, and you could never know what direction any question was coming from, so reciting the seed approved answer was always the "smart" choice for us little powerless kids.

That is, we were powerless over the group, not drugs..

That explanation is for the steppers reading.

 :grin:

marcwordsmith:
Greg, I was 14.
Definitely younger than most Seedlings but there were also plenty of other 14 year olds, a smattering of 13 year olds, and at least one 12 year old boy.

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