Author Topic: Anchor Academy for Boys in Havre, Montana.  (Read 53010 times)

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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #435 on: January 23, 2006, 11:18:00 PM »
Quote
m not disagreeing with you, AA, Im just not buying into the "follow the law because its a law" or divine right of authority schtick I hear alllllll the damn time. Not that you do, but when you say "Adults can be incarcerated for crimes and children can lose priviledges or violating rules. I don't have a problem with that.", who determines what is a crime, and what is a rule, or not? Whoever has the power (or appointed by someone who has power to make decisions about that for them) and through that power send people with weapons to force compliance.


Hopefully our democratic process determines what a crime is. And, it just seems that parents do have to limit a child's behavior for safety. I am a parent and discovered that through experience.
 
Now to address the philosophy. Have you ever read Max Stirner. I suggest going to Wikipedia and reading their article about him.

My personal philosophy is in line with what you are saying. As an atheist is it easy to draw the conclusion that there is no such thing as right or wrong,  good or evil. These are only ideas made up by humans that have no reality in the external universe. It is also easy to draw the conclusion that there is no such thing as 'legitimate  authority,' there are only different kinds of power. After all, where does 'authority' come from if not God? Anything one places over the Ego becomes a higher power, but without God that higher power is arbitrary. As for democracy, a slave to the majority is still a slave. What gives any person or group of people the right to tell another person or group what they can or cannot do? Extending that, you can conclude that rights are really only privileges that people in power allow those under that power to have. As privileges, they can be taken away (just ask the Bush Administration). This whole concept is the basis of anarchist thinking and that is why Max Stirner is often called the father of anarchy.

That said, we are human beings and if we presume we are just animals (no God) we must also realize that we are social animals. We depend upon each other for our well being and security (physical, emotional psychological). Humans are not adapted to living completely alone. Therefore, humans create societies. Throughout history, there have been egalitarian societies, but all societies have rules. Humans need some sort of rules to get along, it seems. So if we must have  rules, then my rule number one is that; every human being deserves to be treated in a fair and humane way.

Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane.

Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor? How do we advocates of free will and self-determination go about convincing someone who believes in an absolute power, that determines what is absolutely right and wrong, that individuals should have the 'right' to dissent?

Can I do that by admitting my atheist/anarchist philosophy? Can I do that by announcing for me, my rights are those I take for myself and fuck all rules and authority?

The Anchor Dad wrote in terms that indicate for him, anarchy (as in anarchy = chaos) is not a valid option. For me, it is. But I sincerely doubt such a stance will influence anyone to remove a child from a program or convince them that programs violate a persons 'right' to self-determination. After all, did I not just say 'rights' don't exist?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #436 on: January 24, 2006, 08:50:00 AM »
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but the best thing to do is to research these places and visit them before entering your kid into one..


Unfortunately, this just isn't true. Some of the most abusive facilities offer 'tours' which are highly scripted PR events.

Visiting the facility is just ONE STEP in the long proccess of research. For parents who care, at least.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #437 on: January 24, 2006, 08:52:00 AM »
Quote

Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor?


I'm not sure you can. This is something each individual has to make up their own mind and this guy certainly doesn't seem like he is considering any other option. Fanaticism seems an appropriate term in this thread.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #438 on: January 24, 2006, 10:19:00 AM »
I dunno, suggest he read Gulag Archipelago? I wonder what it would cost to get and resell copies of the 74 Senate Commission Report on the Federal Role in Behavior Modification? That might help.

You see, I don't care what they profess, the methods the're using are exactly contrary to anything Jesus would advocate. Hitler would dig it, so would Stalin, Lenin and Marx would be right on board. But not Jesus, not at all.

If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #439 on: January 24, 2006, 10:39:00 AM »
QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE

Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?

The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.


So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
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Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #440 on: January 24, 2006, 11:02:00 AM »
Oh really? What programs did you work at?????
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #441 on: January 24, 2006, 11:18:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE



Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?



The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.





So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!

"


Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?

What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!

Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!

Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #442 on: January 24, 2006, 03:42:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:


"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE





Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?





The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.








So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!


"




Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?



What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!



Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!



Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"


The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.

For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.

I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.

I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #443 on: January 24, 2006, 04:06:00 PM »
Quote
I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away.




Why not help some people out and list the programs you consider good, and list the programs which you consider bad? Include your reasoning, and your personal story and experience with working at a program and being at a state run program. I think that would be the best way to get to the truth. As is, your post is simply designed to discredit someone else's, but really has little substance in of itself. Why not contribute to the discussion?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #444 on: January 24, 2006, 05:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:



"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE







Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?







The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.











So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!



"







Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?





What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!





Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!





Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"




The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.



For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.



I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.



I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."


Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.

Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.

Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.

WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.

The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.

Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".

Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it?   :roll:

Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.

The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #445 on: January 24, 2006, 11:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 14:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:



"
Quote



On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:




"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE









Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?









The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.














So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!




"










Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?







What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!







Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!







Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"







The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.





For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.





I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.





I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."




Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.



Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.



Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.



WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.



The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.



Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".



Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it?   :roll:



Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.

The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran

"


Ah Nils, you always come out with both barrels blazing, but you always miss . . .  :razz:
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #446 on: January 25, 2006, 12:51:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE



Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?



The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.





So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!

"


Point taken. It is a generalization and I admit I do not know 'all' programs.

What I do know is taken from newspaper and magazine articles, TV reports,  and testimonials of those who have been through programs. I have also read the programs' own websites. I have read the posts on Fornits from both sides of the fence. I have even lurked on the strugglingteens forums.  I would argue that I know as much or more about these programs than some professionals that refer to them. I certainly know more than the general public. What "... more information!!!!!" should I get?

I honestly feel I have enough information to form a reasonable opinion on the specific programs covered. I do not think I am being completely unfair or ignorant if I extrapolate that the methods used in 'most' programs are similar in both the specific techniques applied and the basic approach (concept) that is used.

For the sake of clarity, the term 'Programs' in my generalization refers to any organization that uses methods of 'breaking' a person and then 'building' them up again. I believe this technique is intrinsically unfair and inhumane. I accept that others do not share my opinion. My concern is for those teenagers who share my opinion and are still forced through these programs against their will.

Is that clear enough?

I purposely avoid the word abuse in my posts. One man's spanking is another man's abuse. How long does a time out last before it is called abuse? I have given my son time-outs with the rule of one minute times his age in years. Is that abuse? I don't think so. But when I read of kids spending days, weeks, even months (admitted to by the director of the facility), in isolation, then I must insist that this is more than a time-out to calm down or for thought and reflection. This is abuse. Such treatment can only have one purpose; to break the kid's will.

But ultimately, who gets to decide where the line is drawn?

Okay, so you have been through a program, you worked at several and even sent your kid through one. Wouldn't that make you a bit biased? Just a thought. How about giving me some specific ways in which the program worked for you? Can you share a memory of a life changing moment? For the sake of discussion, I will assume that your program works/worked. What made it work?

Oh, and for the sake of full disclosure, it turns out I went through two programs. I went through a wilderness program at age 15 (more like an Outward Bound than a Brat Camp). As an adult, I attended an LGAT. I was surprised to find it listed on http://www.rickross.com. Of course, I could leave the LGAT at any time and I never joined the 'cult.' In my mind these don't count as programs. I was never whisked away by strangers in the middle of the night and held somewhere against my will. I was never kept from communicating with my parents for months at a time.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #447 on: January 25, 2006, 01:37:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-01-24 05:52:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote



Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor?



I'm not sure you can. This is something each individual has to make up their own mind and this guy certainly doesn't seem like he is considering any other option. Fanaticism seems an appropriate term in this thread."


I don't think this man is a fanatic. I honestly think he is doing what he thinks is best for his child. For all I know, he is (flame on).

I don't think I can convince him to alter his course either, but maybe he can intellectually understand my perspective.

How can I make this clear? The discussion has become philosophical; at least for me.

I stand behind my assertion that no one, not the courts, not the parents, not a program, not a church, not law enforcement, not the military, nor the government, should be allowed to forcibly 'break' a person's will in an attempt to reform them. It is morally and intrinsically wrong to do so. There can be no exceptions.

It does not matter how extreme the teenager's behavior is. It does not matter how serious the adult's crime might be. It does not matter whether or not it works. It does not matter if the intent is to help the person. There is just no excuse to disregard another person's thoughts and feelings in this way.

I feel very strongly about this. I cannot fully explain it, but to date, no one has convinced me that this process is a good and just and fair thing to do.

It attacks the very core of the notion of freedom, free will, self-determination, and the right of every individual to choose their own path in life. It negates the very core concept of justice, which cannot exist without the individual's freedom to make his/her own moral choices.

God help me. I just made a statement defining an absolute value.  :eek:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #448 on: February 17, 2006, 09:01:00 AM »
Congratulations, you, in one single post, destroyed the entire judicial system. So much for innocent until proven guilty.

The last I checked the burden of proof is suppose to rest with the accuser.

Quote
On 2006-01-24 14:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:



"
Quote



On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:




"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE









Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?









The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.














So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!




"










Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?







What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!







Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!







Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"







The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.





For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.





I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.





I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."




Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.



Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.



Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.



WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.



The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.



Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".



Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it?   :roll:



Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.

The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran

"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #449 on: February 17, 2006, 09:11:00 AM »
Quote
Congratulations, you, in one single post, destroyed the entire judicial system. So much for innocent until proven guilty.

The last I checked the burden of proof is suppose to rest with the accuser.


If program parents believed in the judicial system, they wouldn't utilize programs that allow kidnapping their child against their will and holding them at a facility by force. For people who believe in locking up teens in private jails with no trial, judge or jury, I find that statement a tad ironic.
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