Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Hyde Schools

follow-up questions on Hyde School

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Anonymous:
My impression is that there are a number of people who would like to share their concerns about Hyde with the NYC Fund for Public Schools.  Do you happen to have contact information?

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2005-09-27 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My impression is that there are a number of people who would like to share their concerns about Hyde with the NYC Fund for Public Schools.  Do you happen to have contact information?"

--- End quote ---


By Mail:
The Fund for Public Schools
52 Chambers Street - Room 305
New York, NY 10007

By Phone:
212-374-2874

By Fax:
212-374-5571

By Email:
http://www.nycenet.edu/Contact/

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2005-09-26 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Until now I've been a very casual and occasional observer of this site.  Having read your comments, however, I feel compelled to respond.  I'm basing my response on my experience as a Hyde parent during the past two and a fraction years.  It's taken our family some time to realize and truly appreciate Hyde's shortcomings and destructive practices.  We've recently discovered how many disgruntled families are out there -- word is spreading, we're learning.



First, all the available evidence suggests that the admission rate is MUCH higher than your 1-out-of-3 figure.  Published information on Hyde's admission rate suggests that it's upward of 80-some percent.  I'd encourage you to double-check your claim.



Further, your understanding of reasons for the high attrition rate seems incomplete.  You may be right that some families leave because of the kid's improvement and their wish to save money.  But, during our affiliation with Hyde during the past 2+ years I've spoken with many, many families who leave the school with feelings of deep resentment and disgust. At first I was concerned because I was worried about the school's future; now I understand much better why people leave (we're heading in that direction). You may believe  families leave because the parents haven't bought into the Hyde model or been willing to examine their own issues.  That may be true of some.  But many more, I'm convinced, are turned off by Hyde's  tendency toward patronizing, arrogrant, and controlling treatment of kids and families.



Yes, Hyde's use of many young faculty may not be unusual.  However, what's unusual -- and unconscionable, I've come to realize -- is that these remarkably young faculty (some of whom disclose lots of information about their own personal struggles) are expected to oversee family seminars during which students and parents disclose the most incredibly personal information.  I've now sat through many seminars and can't believe that no one has put a stop to this dangerous practice.  I've seen kids yell at parents, parents scream at and threaten kids, and participants talk about their wish to end their lives, incest, affairs, addictions, etc. -- and all of this is being run by someone who teaches history (or whatever)!  It's incredible.  You may not want to believe it, but quite a few families leave the school because of their sense of horror.  The ones I've met are not at all inclined to run away from their problems.  They simply want a setting that's run more skillfully and professionally by staff who have proper training and life experience, and are less doctrinaire and arrogant.



You say Joe Gauld's involvement is minimal.  That's true if one counts the minutes he's around.  But have you sat in those large group meetings where he pontificates and lectures in an incredibly doctrinaire way to parents about how they ought to run their lives?  Do you really think he's not influencing parents, staff, and Hyde's entire ethos?  His style seems to fly in the face of Hyde's claim about humility.  The hypocrisy is very troubling.



I agree that the student tour guides can be impressive.  They're also hand picked and, in my experience during the past couple of years, not at all representative of the broader student body.  I'd encourage prospective parents to approach a random cross-section of kids to get a more realistic picture of Hyde.  A major part of the problem, I think, is that Hyde's enthusiasts aren't willing to listen -- really listen -- to thoughtful critics.  They tend to surround themselves with like-minded Hyde boosters.  Criticism about Hyde tends to be viewed as sacrilege.



Did you read the Traub article about Hyde that someone posted on this site? In my opinion, that's a much more objective, candid, and honest description of this remarkably complex, controversial, and too often destructive school."

--- End quote ---




Honestly, I have read many of the posts on this site about Hyde and I find them more and more frustrating.
I think that the charter school in NYC is such an amazing idea because I've known people from the charter school in DC who have had wonderful experiences (check out the NPR story - Jesse Jean, a friend of mine, and a great kid)
I graduated last year and I am now at a very competitive liberal arts college, I did well at the school and although I disagreed with many things and it was not easy for me, I do accredit a lot of who I am today to the things I went through at that school.
As for the tour guides who are hand picked, you are wrong. Unless the person is completely off-track, they can give a tour, and in fact sometimes very off-track kids do give tours because it's a good experience.
It is not the place for everyone, but if anything it is a far more meaningful experience than the average public high school. Not everyone can handle it, but it depends on your maturity, it is nonsense to call the school a cult. And in terms of the teachers, some of the most amazing people work at that school. They are young, but consider the commitment that embody in spending 24 hours a day at a school like that. In fact, the thing that I was most grateful for at that school was the amazing faculty, who were willing to have conversations with me all the time, or invite me in to their home when I was having a  bad day, or just let me do homework in their house.
Most of the kids who are saying these EXXAGERATIONS AND MISINTERPRETATIONS are probably bitter because people were honest with them, and they could not handle it.
I would not usually imagine myself sticking up for the school, because I had a very difficult time there, but most of what people are saying is simply not true.

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---On 2005-09-27 21:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
--- Quote ---
On 2005-09-26 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Until now I've been a very casual and occasional observer of this site.  Having read your comments, however, I feel compelled to respond.  I'm basing my response on my experience as a Hyde parent during the past two and a fraction years.  It's taken our family some time to realize and truly appreciate Hyde's shortcomings and destructive practices.  We've recently discovered how many disgruntled families are out there -- word is spreading, we're learning.





First, all the available evidence suggests that the admission rate is MUCH higher than your 1-out-of-3 figure.  Published information on Hyde's admission rate suggests that it's upward of 80-some percent.  I'd encourage you to double-check your claim.





Further, your understanding of reasons for the high attrition rate seems incomplete.  You may be right that some families leave because of the kid's improvement and their wish to save money.  But, during our affiliation with Hyde during the past 2+ years I've spoken with many, many families who leave the school with feelings of deep resentment and disgust. At first I was concerned because I was worried about the school's future; now I understand much better why people leave (we're heading in that direction). You may believe  families leave because the parents haven't bought into the Hyde model or been willing to examine their own issues.  That may be true of some.  But many more, I'm convinced, are turned off by Hyde's  tendency toward patronizing, arrogrant, and controlling treatment of kids and families.





Yes, Hyde's use of many young faculty may not be unusual.  However, what's unusual -- and unconscionable, I've come to realize -- is that these remarkably young faculty (some of whom disclose lots of information about their own personal struggles) are expected to oversee family seminars during which students and parents disclose the most incredibly personal information.  I've now sat through many seminars and can't believe that no one has put a stop to this dangerous practice.  I've seen kids yell at parents, parents scream at and threaten kids, and participants talk about their wish to end their lives, incest, affairs, addictions, etc. -- and all of this is being run by someone who teaches history (or whatever)!  It's incredible.  You may not want to believe it, but quite a few families leave the school because of their sense of horror.  The ones I've met are not at all inclined to run away from their problems.  They simply want a setting that's run more skillfully and professionally by staff who have proper training and life experience, and are less doctrinaire and arrogant.





You say Joe Gauld's involvement is minimal.  That's true if one counts the minutes he's around.  But have you sat in those large group meetings where he pontificates and lectures in an incredibly doctrinaire way to parents about how they ought to run their lives?  Do you really think he's not influencing parents, staff, and Hyde's entire ethos?  His style seems to fly in the face of Hyde's claim about humility.  The hypocrisy is very troubling.





I agree that the student tour guides can be impressive.  They're also hand picked and, in my experience during the past couple of years, not at all representative of the broader student body.  I'd encourage prospective parents to approach a random cross-section of kids to get a more realistic picture of Hyde.  A major part of the problem, I think, is that Hyde's enthusiasts aren't willing to listen -- really listen -- to thoughtful critics.  They tend to surround themselves with like-minded Hyde boosters.  Criticism about Hyde tends to be viewed as sacrilege.





Did you read the Traub article about Hyde that someone posted on this site? In my opinion, that's a much more objective, candid, and honest description of this remarkably complex, controversial, and too often destructive school."


--- End quote ---







Honestly, I have read many of the posts on this site about Hyde and I find them more and more frustrating.

I think that the charter school in NYC is such an amazing idea because I've known people from the charter school in DC who have had wonderful experiences (check out the NPR story - Jesse Jean, a friend of mine, and a great kid)

I graduated last year and I am now at a very competitive liberal arts college, I did well at the school and although I disagreed with many things and it was not easy for me, I do accredit a lot of who I am today to the things I went through at that school.

As for the tour guides who are hand picked, you are wrong. Unless the person is completely off-track, they can give a tour, and in fact sometimes very off-track kids do give tours because it's a good experience.

It is not the place for everyone, but if anything it is a far more meaningful experience than the average public high school. Not everyone can handle it, but it depends on your maturity, it is nonsense to call the school a cult. And in terms of the teachers, some of the most amazing people work at that school. They are young, but consider the commitment that embody in spending 24 hours a day at a school like that. In fact, the thing that I was most grateful for at that school was the amazing faculty, who were willing to have conversations with me all the time, or invite me in to their home when I was having a  bad day, or just let me do homework in their house.

Most of the kids who are saying these EXXAGERATIONS AND MISINTERPRETATIONS are probably bitter because people were honest with them, and they could not handle it.

I would not usually imagine myself sticking up for the school, because I had a very difficult time there, but most of what people are saying is simply not true."

--- End quote ---


I think you make some reasonable points.  I agree that some students benefit from Hyde's approach and emphasis on accountability.  And you may be right that the tour guides aren't exactly hand picked (although there are many students who are critical of Hyde that visitors aren't likely to encounter). Also, I agree that many of the faculty and staff are dedicated, sincere, and available to students.  

That said, I think it's critically important to distinguish between -- and honestly acknowledge -- Hyde's positive features AND its well known shortcomings and destructive features.  Now that I've been affiliated with Hyde for quite some time I've had the opportunity to observe, directly, remarkably abusive treatment (verbal, not physical) of students AND parents by a handful of staff, faculty and parent volunteers who help to facilitate seminars.  I've been horrified by some of the destructive, confrontational, insulting, and unskilled comments directed toward some students and parents.  This behavior flies in the face of the core values Hyde claims to embrace.  You might say that this discomfort occurs only when families aren't willing to struggle with their own issues (that is, it's defensive).  That may be true in some cases, but I think in many more cases people are responding to genuinely unprofessional and unskilled (though well meaning, perhaps) staff, faculty and volunteer parents.

My strong sense now is that Hyde has its toe on the line (and probably crosses the line) when it organizes seminars that are designed to uncover and reveal deeply personal information.  I fully support schools' efforts to get families and students to examine their personal issues and struggles -- that's not the problem.  However, Hyde's deliberate use of the seminar format to address these issues with relatively untrained staff and volunteers, while well meaning, has been harmful to many people I've spoken with and has led a number of people to leave the school (just last week I encountered yet another family that has had a painful experience there and now wants nothing to do with the school.  There are lots of unhappy folks out there, despite what you might think based on the enthusiasm in the auditorium on family/parent weekends).  It's fine for Hyde to promote self-examination and accountability among students and parents.  I think Hyde needs to apply these same principles to itself and not be so defensive about all the criticism that surrounds it (I recognize that some of the criticism is shooting from the hip and not terribly thoughtful or constructive.  However, a fair amount of what I'm hearing on the street, at Hyde during my visits there, and websites like this is thoughtful and well informed).  I think Hyde needs to redesign its approach, fundamentally, so that it's not destructive and harmful.  Again, some of the school's features are admirable and some are horribly destructive.

Anonymous:
I understand what you're saying about the seminars, but from the sound of it, you have not actually sat through one of these seminars.

Faculty are participants in the group just as much as they are facilitators, and a lot of the harsh feedback comes from students, parents, AND faculty, so if someone is offended by something, it was not necessarily from a faculty.

The amount of seminars that i have sat through is indefinte, I spent 7 years sitting through seminars, since my brother attended the school before I did. People's boundaries are respected, if there something very personal about their past then they are encouraged to share it, but not required. I know this first-hand. The mandatory journaling questions and such are pretty vague: "what are your hopes and dreams?" "what resentments do you have towards your past?" people can answer however they want.


Again: I don't think that the school is perfect, I was often a student who stood up for things that i disagreed with, and I had many conversations with the headmaster, asst. headmasters, and all my teachers about the things that were not right about the school. But you don't really have the right to talk about that before you really give it a chance...and I don't mean just sitting in a seminar, but really really participating.

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