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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m

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John Underwood:
First of all, I do apologize for my (degrading to you and me) rant following the responses to my post regarding my old druggies friends, that was uncalled for, base - a more civilized response from me would have been appropriate.
Regarding the oft requested apologies for my part in The Seed, that would be the equivalent (to me) of supporting a lie, feeding a delusion. I further believe that if you don?t understand this, it?s simply because you don?t want to. This is what I believe, ...me! Some of the posts reflect a belief that I have an expectation that you need to believe, I don?t, not the tiniest. I do not begrudge anyone whose opinion is vastly different from mine, nor do I begrudge them the right to shout it from the mountaintop(s) if they so desire.
You invited me to post at this site to answer questions that would clear up certain ambiguities. I have. And yes, in my doing more than that, (expressing personal opinions, feelings), the attention has become focused on me, not the answers you sought. If I continue to post at this site I have no intention of not expressing my thoughts and opinions, but I will try to minimize so as to not misdirect from what you specifically ask.
Let?s begin with my answering one I already answered. NO, I never struck fuelaw (whoever that is) or anyone else at The Seed, never happened, an absolutely bold face lie! Now let me ask you a question. No one here, not even the most adamant Seed haters, remembers the staff actually hitting anyone, yet fuelaw claims he was ?beat-up? by staff,...and more than once, both in Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Does this not give you cause to think about, question the validity of his claims? If not, sobeit, no more on comments from me on this subject.
Yes, I did, (as did other staff), turn down parents who attempted to place their kids in The Seed if I thought they, (and this is the term I used to parents), were not candidates for the program. The contagion that effected many parents during those years resulted in many kids showing up that did not need the program. In fact, the most prominent, outspoken member of this web site was one of those turned down, her parents being told she did not need the program.
If there was any doubt about an intake, even if substantial drug use was admitted, they were required to first see a psychiatrist for evaluation. In Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Ft. Pierce it was Dr. Lester Keiser. In Cleveland it was Dr. David Logan. I do not remember the name of the doctor in St. Pete, though I?m sure if you want it, his name could be easily obtained. This was done strictly to determine if there was reason to suspect there may be other problems, not drug related.
There was one other post I read that I would like to respond to since I do have first hand knowledge regarding the validity of the accusation. Neither Judge Al Sepe or Judge Ellen Morphonios, (both sent many to The Seed), ever placed anyone in The Seed at the bequest of parents. Never. These are both people I knew well, considered friends, and neither took their judicial responsibility that lightly. Parents were never involved until after the fact and in many cases there was no parental involvement before or after. This was adult felony court at, (what was then called), The Criminal Court of Record at the Dade County Justice Building. These persons were all charged with felonies, - certain ones, at arraignment were interviewed, and if deemed candidates for rehabilitation, were give the choice of entering The Seed or continuing their entitled due process, not going to jail. I know, I was the one that sat in the court at the public defender?s table (in Sepe?s court) as they went through the court docket every morning. (A little side note here: Roy Black was one of the two public defenders permanently assigned to Sepe?s court during this period, I still get a kick out of how famous he has become).
Any other questions you have, ask, if I know, I?ll answer, but probably not in a timely manner.
Any other ill-founded, debasing, slanderous, profane, dishonest remarks, ...well, as you have so accurately and consistently pointed out, ... I have no control...

cleveland:
John, I appreciate your posting here. Please know in advance that I will not necessarily agree with you, but I have no reason to doubt your sincerity. If others have a different response, so be it.

No one ever struck me at the Seed, but I was 'shoved' from behind in the group. I was rarely yelled at, and it was usually indirectly during a Rap. Someone always had their arm around me when I was a newcomer, I was never alone, and had to leave the bathroom door open a crack when I used it. I was strip searched, including full body cavity search, which was humiliating. So that was the extent of actual 'physical' intrusions.

When I was admitted in Cleveland I met with Dr. Logan, who I believe was affiliated with Case. This meant a lot to me as I had experienced some anxietyh and depression and was afraid that I was 'mentally ill.' I later wrote Dr. Logan a letter, with very personal items that I was unwilling to share with him face to face (nothing terrible, just things that I found embarrasing and hard to understand). In the letter, which I copied to the Seed, I requested that he review whether I would be better served by therapy or the Seed. He didn't reply, and when I entered the Seed (post intake) I asked staff about the letter and they said they had 'no idea' what I was talking about. I was sort of shocked; but that was after the strip search and being told I was completely 'full of shit'. I had come in voluntarily because I thought this was some type of group therapy. I wanted to leave immediately but was told I had signed myself in for three irrevocable days. So I sat tight and after three days on the front row, I determined that although I was very uncomfortable with the 'program' that I had to admit I was unhappy and that I should 'give their way a try.' I now see this as manipulation (sorry John) and completely in keeping with step-type thinking.

There you go...my take on this time in my life.

Walter

GregFL:
Thank you john for so directly responding and for the apology. I sincerely appreciate it.

As for my suggestion you apologize for those you may have harmed during your tenure at the seed, that was merely a suggestion on my part and I have no direct need for it personally..

Ahh, violence at the seed.  I will tell you now why I believe Fuelaw was roughed up,and I will also be the first to throw it down that I have no first hand knowledge of it nor do I know the extent, if any, of your participation.


But violence at the seed. The topic first... I don't like it. In my opinion it negates the real problems with the treatment model. You can do away with all the violence, the temper tantrums, the threats and so forth and the basic treatment model is still wrong and harmfull.


But violence at the seed, whether overt or suggested, was a daily threat to us youngsters. Let me pontificate a little here.

First, the threat at intake was of a violent nature. If you do not sign yourself in, you are going to be declared incorrigible and go to JDC, and do you know what happens to kids at JDC?  This was the threat I received, an overt threat that I either sign myself in or face possible anal rape.  I was to weak and scared at 14 to even face the possibility of that, even tho I did put up a couragious fight and call the staff member who strip searched me a faggot while looking him in the eye and after exposing my organ I asked him "are you happy now". A juvenile statement and insensitive to homosexuals but one born of defiance.

Second, the threat once place on the first row. If you don't comply, we will have you court ordered and you will stay in captivity for longer, and if you still don't comply you will be placed in Jail/juvy.  Again, the overt sexual connotation/threat.  

Next, the Guards at the door, and the propensity for these guards to throw people to the concrete in an extremely one sided free for all action.  Just witnessing this once in my first three days was enough for me, I wasn't going to physically challenge those older kids with testosterone in their muscles, something my strong but pre-pubscent body was lacking.  The threat of physicall violence was always there.

Next, The constant MEAN spirited poking and prodding from behind for soley letting your back touch the chair or from nodding off from lack of sleep, exercise and from emotional duress. This was orwellian and cruel in the extreme, more on the line of torture than actual violence, but it was a constant reminder of what could and would happen if you didn't comply.

still again, the come down on you raps often reached threatening and frightening proportions, bordering on direct physical threats. I specifically remember people screaming things like "on the streets I would have raped you" to girls and " in prison you would be someone's girlfriend". With the threat of prison held over all our heads, the implied violence was constant.

Going further, the infamous parental beatings at the St Pete Seed. Not only did they occur, and people have repeatedly logged on this site with independent memories of it along with accounts in the press and testimony from parents, But even worse, after they occured they were used as THREATS against the rest of us. "don't think we can't get your parents in here" type of stuff.

Going further John, You struck a rather imposing physical presence to us youngsters, and you often became a frothing maniac, bordering on very scary, when screaming and belittling us in front of other people. Think back John. I have and I can see your face and demeaner as I type this.

Still again people would break pieces of the chair off and cut themselves with it and while bleeding get stood up and yelled at. This is extremely violent imagery to a captive person, especially a young one.

Lastly, I participated in violent actions against other seedlings IN FRONT OF SENIOR STAFF. Its true, and not only did I do it, so did another senior staff member. We took a 14 year old kid who broke free and ran for it in the parking lot, and tackled him ONTO THE PAVEMENT, held him down and threatened him physically into submission. He came up bloody, he was violently grabbed by the senior staff member, dragged in front of I believe Suzy  who seethed.."get him back in group" or something to that effect.

lastly, "boys" rap to me felt like violence. Here I was, devoid of any sexual experience, being shoved into a group of boys and asked to "relate" my sexual experiences or lack therof. It was a frightening experience that had me physically trembling before every "boys" rap.

Other people have other stories, but that is violence at the seed from GregFl's perspective. It not only existed in actuality, but the constant threat of being hurt during an escape, being locked up and raped, having your self beat up by a proxy of staff (being your own parent) being stuck in the back, or worse, if non-compliant being denied the basic right to take a piss or go number 2 until it appeared you were going to go in your pants. BTW, was there specific junior staff instruction on this bit of behavior modification? Because many many people have this as one of their number one complaints. Being reduced to such a helpless captive that even urinating or moving your bowels was a privelige withheld to those not in compliance and then to have these actions watched and logged into a book? Care to clear up the reasoning for that? I think I know John that it was really just a terror technique. we are being honest here, right?  I even remember the term, "you can just sit in your shit". this is violent, degrading, humiliating, and orwelian treatment of youngsters.

Now, back to Fuelaw. When this occured he was 13. He was defiant, he was small, and what may have seemed like a small jerking of the arm or slam against a wall could have seemed like a giant ass beating to him. I am just speculating. I really don't know the story in detail and maybe he would like to post it in totality for rebuttal. I cannot honestly comment on what occured but I will honestly say it does not surprise me.  I was there in 1973 and felt the violence charged atmosphere.


Bringing us full circle to 2005.  I am very sincere when I tell you I forgive you and all involved. You may not feel like you need or want my forgiveness, but I give it to you unconditionally. You may feel the end justified the means and that "saving lives" was more important than the other result, the result you see here on this forum where many many people have logged on and shared the torment of their involvement with The Seed.  It is real John,it is not sour grapes or a bunch of failures trying to justify their failure. Most of us are well adjusted adults that frankly don't need to keep bringing this stuff up everyday. I do this for a different reason. I don't need the therapy..I don't need the constant reminder, and I don't get angry, upset, emotional or otherwise stuck back there when I discuss it. Others need to go thru this and come out the otherside. This forum is in honor of those people and in honor of our shared experiences.

But again, back to full circle..here we are 30 years later. By any standard of objectivity, the Seed was a dismall failure, the legacy programs continue to harm people, and  the utopian dream of a seed "army" failed miserably just like all cults eventually do, and the end, as usual, did not justify the means.

It rarely does.

GregFL:
BTW, I cannot speak for those Judges, but I have specific knowledge of a judge that lied for the seed. He was a judge in pinellas county.

His kid was in the program and he was an adamant seed supporter, providing fresh meat regularly to the seed. He overturned a Broward court order releasing a kid from the seed, claiming the kid admitted in open court to needing the seed and being a drug addict.

The problem? The kid was never in the judges court. The entire thing was fabricated.

What level of commitment to the cause does it take a judge to violate his oath of office? To get judges to commit kids for shoplifting to a lock down drug rehab? To sentence kids for "attitude" to the seed?

BTW, I know about the above case intimately. It was my mother that obtained the release order, and my father  and a local attorney, who also happened to have his kid in the seed,  whom finagled the Seed affiliated Judge to lie under oath.

Is any of this normal?

rjfro22:
John U.,
            I am grateful for this forum, For years I would think about the seed and wonderd how people were doing.  It is so great to have my memories refreshed by so many people.  The Seed  was not  an easy place but it helped wake me up, there was plenty of tough love, sometimes it could have been a little more gentle,
but the Seed help me pull my life together, and I remember you as being a really great person and I want to thank you and most of the staff that worked so hard to help many of us that really needed it.  I hope things are going well for you in life.  Thanks again for
being a person that helped make a difference in this world, you helped save lives.
Highest Regard,
Richard F.[ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-21 11:42 ]

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