as*****

[Anonymous]

good job trying to put the "peer pressure" on greg did you learn that at the seed?

[GregFL]

Marc I agree with what you are saying, but anon has a point about calling people names. We should all refrain. I didn't say anything about your post, only the asshole comment, and This no way validates anything John posted in that thread. I susbstantially agree with everything else you said.

I am guilty also. I think we can all improve. I also think JU's original post was intended as bait and his come down on ya rap, in retrospect, is kinda comical. Who does he think we are, a bunch of subservient seedlings?

Give me a break.

 :grin:  :grin:

[GregFL]

And yes, anon, grow a sack and start using a handle.

[Anonymous]

Stripe states:
?John U: Fuelaw said -By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
I completely concur.?
?-it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH?
?John Underwood: Look at your life and tell me why are all those whom you have identified in such states of misfortune? What is it about YOU that brings, swirls, and holds all of this misfortune, sadness, death and confusion to you and the lives of those you touch??
It should be noted that in a post Stripe acknowledges she never actually knew John U.


Anon - whoever you are:

I knew this guy as well as any kid knew any staff member. NOT AT ALL.  Perhaps, whoever you are, you were lucky enough to "pesonally" know them and folick with them at the beach and in other arranged activites.   Was there some rule that we were supposed to be personal friends with our captors? If so, I was never told about it. These people made decisions about the events in my life and I can guarn-danm-tee you they knew nothing about me then. NOT ONE THING.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not bitter about the missed pic-a-nics, slave labor, arranged ball games and perverted sexual segregation.  I'm glad I was deemed a person not worthy of insider treatment.  It makes the recovery from the event so much easier.

You have the benefit of the search and copy on this forum.  I'm glad what I write strikes you so - if it upsets you, there's probabaly a reason.  Again, look inside and ask why. Do I think that people who still spout program dogma and run tired old psychological games are sheep?  You bet.

[John Underwood]

As long as i'm here...
Frolicking at beach parties? Never happened, not me anyway. The very infrequent softball games that occurred later at SR84, everyone who wanted to could participate.
It is funny how things appear, based upon where you're looking from.
Here's what I remember. Working 80-90, sometimes 100+ hours per week, never in 6 years having more that one day a week off, never having one single day off for almost 3 years. Being called in the middle of the night and told to get in my car and drive to St. Pete, being called in the middle of the night and told to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale, driving back and forth between Ft. Pierce and Ft. Laud. every single day, being called (this night I remember well for personal reasons) around 1:00 a.m. and being told to make the 6:50 a.m. flight to Cleveland. Ahhh...to frolick and play.
Like I said, a lot changes depending upon the view in front of you.
And please, try to refrain from believing, that simply because I've assumed a pro-Seed position here, I'm incapable of realizing and appreciating what you saw/see.
One thing that does confound be about this site is that in the mist of all the intellectual  debate and inflamed emotions, simple respect and/or understanding of the condition human seems to be lost. Too bad.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-21 09:39:00, John Underwood wrote:

And please, try to refrain from believing, that simply because I've assumed a pro-Seed position here, I'm incapable of realizing and appreciating what you saw/see.

That's not the reason. I and others have noted plenty of more objective, sensible reasons for drawing such a conclusion. For example, you blame our parents for getting the misguided notion that most teenagers were druggies in need of treatment.

Well I'm calling bullshit on that! WTF did you think would happen? You (yes you!) got them all scared to death that we'd all die w/o your mystical magical cure and then directly instructed them to go out and recruit all of our friends and neighbors. You tricked children into confessing to things they'd never done and then used those false confessions to convince the public that our society had a big, big crisis on our hands (w/ a capital C that rhymes w/ D that stands for DRUGS!) that only those with special "awareness" (you and your fellow cult members) could see.

You did this. I was there for all those revival style open meeting speeches about saving the world. It pisses me off that you would dare to try and dodge your complicity in this and lay it, instead, on our parents. On the other hand, you're right. They were fools one and all for ever trusting you. But that was their only crime in this. They believed you when they should have known better. That's forgivable. You? Sorry, at this late date you need to take responsibility for your actions.

One thing that does confound be about this site is that in the mist of all the intellectual debate and inflamed emotions, simple respect and/or understanding of the condition human seems to be lost. Too bad.

I think maybe you're working from an "exclusive" definition of terms like respect and understanding. Any relationship that starts w/ a strip search is devoid of real respect. I don't think there's any way around that. Unless, possibly, you eventually come around to a place of real understanding and apologize for some of your mistakes. But you don't even want to hear about it. Anybody tries to tell you and you just do the program soft-shoe and suggest that they seek treatment of a diaper change.


 

The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[GregFL]

Maybe the beach parties came after you John. I specificaly remember seeing Art, shirt off, with a bunch of teenybopper staff girlies flitting around him as I drove by down A1A. They used to hang right off the road...


Also, my encounter with Art at the pool started with me seeing art in the middle of the pool smiling and covorting with the female staff members.Lets put this in perspective. Art was what? 45 maybe? The staffers...18, 19, 20  all in two piece bikinis and Art being the only man there. Art and these female staffers all in the pool with Art the center of attention.

Is that a little strange?  Maybe they slaved worked you so Art could get a little R&R alone with the female staffers at Cranbrook?

Is any of this a little off kilter? Not what you expect to see in normal society?

I would pistol whip any 45-50 year old man that was in a position of authority overy my 19 year old daughter that in their time off were in their skivys together in a pool...

[marcwordsmith]

Anon, Marc is my real name. I also have a profile on this site. I'm not hiding behind my handle. You shouldn't hide either.

By the way, I know there is more than one anonymous poster. I respect the tone taken by the person who began this thread, although I disagree with that person's views and I do feel that putting forth strong views anonymously lacks . . . well, lacks something.

[marshall]

John, this is one problem with simply dividing everyone here into pro and con seed. If you haven't already, take time to read some of the posts here from people who were at the Seed in the years after you left. Are you aware of the changes? We have to ask 'which' seed anytime we offer either praise or criticism.

This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?

I remember staff exactly as you describe in that post...overworked and being payed a tiny stipend.  During our time there, little or no emphasis was placed upon acquiring wealth or status. This too seems to have changed markedly in later years. Can you at least admit that the Seed (post Underwood) seems to have become a self-enclosed cult-like group? Would you want Lybbi telling you who you could marry and how many kids you could have? BTW, I have no direct knowledge of any of this since I wasn't there at the time. However, there are several people that were there during those years that post here. Take some time to read and digest some of the posts concerning this part of the program. I'm sure those who were there would be happy to verify (or refute) the points I brought up or answer any questions you might have about the later Seed.
 
 One change that I do have direct knowledge of is the change in financial arrangements. I spoke with Lybbi on the phone a couple of years after I graduated (funny, she refused to speak to you but talked to me, huh? :grin: ) about getting a relative into the program. I often heard that money was not an issue when getting people into the seed and parents that could not afford the program were allowed to make payments. (wasn't it this way when you were there?) I was surprised when Lybbi informed me that no-one could be admitted without full cash-upfront payment. I told her that this was a single (widowed) working mother trying to get her son into the program. Lybbi was unmoved by this and insisted anyone could find a way to scrape together the money (can't recall if it was 4 or 5K) necessary to pay for the program in advance. The mother couldn't afford this so the guy never went in...thank goodness.

 He was an older teen who drank too much and smoked pot. Had the usual 'bad' (read adolescent) attitude. I guess he's another rare exception that you spoke of....since he's married, has a steady job, raised an adopted child and is a grandad  now. He rarely drinks and hasn't smoked pot in years.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-21 10:59:00, GregFL wrote:

"Maybe the beach parties came after you John.

Nope. I remember there was a wealthy family who owned a little undeveloped stretch of "Millionaire Mile"; A1A in Deerfield Beach. There the Seedlings would go as a group and play. Maybe John was just too busy dogging himself out to attend and too sleep deprived to have given it any lucid thought.

In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn?t speak up because I wasn?t a trade unionist. Then they came for Catholics, and I didn?t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
--Protestant minister Martin Neimoller

[cleveland]

Quote from Marshall:

"This may even offer a basis for agreement as to certain critiques of the program. For example, what do you think of the requirement that everyone remain on their program...for life...never graduating? Of needing Art's approval as to who you could choose to date or marry? Staff pressuring people to have abortions? Determining what sort of job / career was permissable to you? Dividing men and women as to 'manly' work / hobbies and woman's work? Men being told that studying art was for sissies or women? The forming of an inner circle or clique?"

Amen. All of that I personally experienced. As a 25 year old guy, supposedly a 'Seedling' in good standing, being told what to do or not do, always in fear of being rejected, clearing everything with staff, being told that I wasn't worthy of a relationship, being told that friends of mine who suddenly disappeared were 'full of shit,' being told that I was an 'intellectual asshole,' or that 'opinions are like assholes, everyone has them,' or 'ours is not question why, ours is but to do or die' - after a while, this outweighed the commeraderie and 'esrit de corps' that drew me into the Seed, despite my misgivings.

[Anonymous]

Antigen, that happened a couple of times and that may have occured before JU ever came on the program.  That was Lybbi's parents property-I believe.

[John Underwood]

Marshall,
I promise I will respond to this post and others of your's as soon as I can, I just don't have time right now. Sorry.

[Antigen]

On 2005-09-21 09:39:00, John Underwood wrote:

Working 80-90, sometimes 100+ hours per week, never in 6 years having more that one day a week off, never having one single day off for almost 3 years. Being called in the middle of the night and told to get in my car and drive to St. Pete, being called in the middle of the night and told to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale, driving back and forth between Ft. Pierce and Ft. Laud. every single day, being called (this night I remember well for personal reasons) around 1:00 a.m. and being told to make the 6:50 a.m. flight to Cleveland. Ahhh...to frolick and play.

Honestly, John, do you think you or anybody could possibly have been thinking clearly while keeping up w/ that kind of grind ?

Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins

[John Underwood]

Ginger,
No I don't. As I told Greg when we spoke on the phone, burn-out, though not the primary reason, was definitely a contributing factor to my leaving.