The BIG Conduct Disorder Myth

[Deborah]

TS,
I have posted numerous articles and essays on the topic of so-called mental illnesses and disorders. Just Search WWF for ADHD and/or SSRIs.
Other than genuine brain damage, there are no tests that can prove any of them exist or are 'genetic'. No blood test or brain scan.
The APA adopted the medical model (for which there are objective tests to prove disease) but the only 'test' for MIs are subjective observation. Psych drugs 'cure' nothing, but can result in death.
There are so many factors that can affect attitude/behavior. Many a child/person has been drugged when they only needed a change of diet, more exercise, a different learning environment or job, quality attention from an adult they admire, some treatment for a genuine medical problem, etc. One study showed a drastic improvement of subjects with 'ADHD' by simply taking them to a green space everyday. I think this was in NY, if memory serves.

Humans have been altering their consciousness forever. Even little children do it- sucking, rocking, spinning. Appears there may be an inherent desire. Or perhaps the world is so hard, the desire surfaces very early.

Your daughter, like others in her generation have been bombarded with constant advertisements, conditioning them to rely on drugs for whatever ails them. If they don't get it from the media, their peers will educate them. Think of the poor saps who took Viagra (was it) to enhance their sexual performance and ended up blind ! Lawsuits are in the works. Again, no 'cure', just a cover-up of symptoms, IF one is lucky. And the side effects are frequently as bad or worse than the problem.

I personally believe that modern humans are living in a highly stressful, unnatural state. It's easy to understand why people would seek relief, even from their 'struggling' children who they have no time for. The question, which is one that is forced on teens in programs, is this taking responsibility? I think not.

My son went through a kinda goth period AFTER a program. His 'symptoms' were what psychs label 'ptsd'. He made and wore anarchy t-shirt with cammo or black pants, army boots, chains. Everything purchased at Goodwill or the Army Surplus store. No piercings- hates needles.  He was also over 6' tall and had parrot green hair for a while, so image the stares. Hey, it was easy to locate him in a crowd!! After many hours of counseling, he described it to me and his counselor (a friend of mine) as his 'safety blanket'. It repelled others. He eventually desired a change because it was repelling some people (mostly girls) that he wanted to be close to. His counselor told me to wait it out, it would be a good indicator of where he was emotionally. He eventually swaped it for the skater look and took up skateboarding. I never gave people in public the opportunity to make negative comments. I treated him with respect in their presence and just warmly smiled when someome would look to me to see what reaction I might tolerate from them.

Not all kids who are Goth/Bohemian/etc have been through the heinous treatment he received, but they are square pegs who desire to distinquish themselves from others- or the many I've known were. And if you listen to them, they are typically very intellegent and much more in touch with the reality of their world than mainstreamers. A strong visual expression of 'I refuse to conform or accept the way things are'.

Unfortunately, as many of the radical baby boomers found out- Change is extremely difficult, if at all possible. The square pegs I've known eventually change (give in?) around the time they decide that earning a living is more important than their visual statement of non conformity. A few did go into work that didn't require a change- musicians, artists, etc.

[Anonymous]

it's all just part of the search for an identity, and trying to figure out who you are.  phases are so important in growing up.  yeah, it kinda stings to see someone who says they want to stand out and be different doing whatever it takes to conform to a subculture, but what else are they going to do? at a school, kids have so few means of expression, that they use their wardrobe/body/hair to do it. better they go through their eyesore phases in their teens and twenties than later in life, that's few sure.

[Anonymous]

I think it's a case by case basis. Some kids may have serious problems, some may not. (I did.)

[Truth Searcher]

Thanks for the wisdom.  

Antigen~ we actually did try homeschooling before she went to her TBS.  She hated it too.  She liked the freedom to learn according to her learning style, however, she really missed the social opportunities associated with a public school.  Our homeschooling groups in the area are rather..... conservative  :wink: ..... and she didn't quite fit that mold either.  I do think she highly intelligent and just does not get excited by lectures, text reading and worksheets.

Deborah~  thank you for sharing your son's experience.  This Gothic thing sprouted during her last few months of her TBS.  I was hoping when she returned to a more mainstream culture, that she would lose the chains and combat boots.  But, alas, she did not.  I find your perspectives about creating distance particularly interesting.  I just finished a great book called "Bodily Harm", and the author (who primarily treats self-mutilators) has a term that I really chewed on.  She calls mutilating, or the bag lady look, or the Gothic thing "Uglification".  She feels many youths cut and scar themselves to keep intimate relationships at bay.  She implies that the same may be true for kids who really dress outside of the mainstream.  My daughter does both.

So, anyway thanks.  I know a big part of my struggle with this is my own pride.  I know, it's immature, but it is true.  I have even gotten past caring how people in the mall or in general public react.  But, there are those in the extended family who aren't too accepting.   We live in a well to do, snobby, middle class town.  If your kid doesn't look like they stepped off the pages of American Eagle or the Gap, ya get some "inquiring" looks and comments....

Anyway, thanks again.  It helped to just be heard.
I need to continue to see the bright, talented, artistic kind kid that she is.  

[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-09-08 10:39 ]

[Deborah]

***I do think she highly intelligent and just does not get excited by lectures, text reading and worksheets

Some (many?) learn by 'doing'. Not much support for that, unfortunately.

Re: the 'distancing' issue, that was my son's explanation, which may or may not apply to others. I can certainly see where someone might adopt it for acceptance. As his anger and mistrust subsided so did some of that. When a change happened it always followed an awareness on his part of feeling like a 'poser'- adopting the Goth look then later realizing he wasn't Goth at all. Adopting the look did serve a purpose for a time- until he was older and no longer felt controlled by and vulnerable to adult authority figures.

I can see where dress may keep some intimate relationships at bay, but that didn't apply to my son. He was cutting too, after the program, but no one knew. He described that differently. It seemed to be, on one hand, a test to see how much pain he could tolerate. And on the other hand, an internalization of the intense and constant 'punishment' he'd endured. For him, this began with a tradition practiced at the facility- tatoos done with crude impliments, pins or other sharp objects and ink from pens.

I'm remembering one of my son's friends. Highly intellegent, awesome poet and story teller, a fun and likeable guy. Parents were rabid fundamentalists who lived in woods and kept a tight rein on him. He had a little duffle bag that contained his Goth garb. When he ecsaped their grasp he would tranform- all black clothes, chains, black liner/lips/nails, the whole bit. Last I saw him he checked me out at a store. Working full time and attending community college at night persuing a writing career. I wondered, but didn't ask, if he still dressed Goth on his off hours or if he'd given it up.

Might we see less of this if there was less irrational BS to deal with? If kids real needs were understood and provided? The whole adolescent rebellion issue has been shown to be a product of modern 'civilized' societies. Why do we keep avoiding the inevitable and punishing our kids for their reaction to an insane way of living?

[Antigen]

"Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is."--MARGARET MITCHELL



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-08 03:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think it's a case by case basis. Some kids may have serious problems, some may not. (I did.)"

I said this comment earlier in the thread.

I hate to say this to you people, but the way a kid dresses, be it goth, punk, metalhead or whatever, is NOT a problem in and of itself that you should worry about, unless they are trapsing around half-naked. I know it may be different than what you are accustomed to. If you don't want to be seen in public with them, that sounds more like your problem than theirs.

If the kid has other problems, then deal with those problems, but don't conflate the dress code with that. That impinges on the kid's ability to create their own identity. You may consider that dress code or image destructive, but that is your own prejudice.

[Antigen]

Yeah, besides, piercings, tats, mohawks and funky clothing are about as risqe these days as pierced ears were in the 60's. It's not asif this sort of thing is going to be stigmatizing in the long term. In fact, I think the kids who don't dress oddly might turn out to be the weird ones.

We long for homes we can never have as long as we have institutions like school, television, corporation, and government in loco parentis.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/3a.htm' target='_new'>John Taylor Gatto

[Anonymous]

Conduct Disorder


By the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

"Conduct disorder" is a complicated group of behavioral and emotional problems in youngsters. Children and adolescents with this disorder have great difficulty following rules and behaving in a socially acceptable way. They are often viewed by other children, adults and social agencies as "bad" or delinquent, rather than mentally ill.
Children or adolescents with conduct disorder may exhibit some of the following behaviors:
Aggression to people and animals

    * Bullies, threatens or intimidates others
    * Often initiates physical fights
    * Has used a weapon that could cause serious physical harm to others (e.g. a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife or gun)
    * Is physically cruel to people or animals
    * Steals from a victim while confronting them (e.g. assault)
    * Forces someone into sexual activity

Destruction of Property

    * Deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention to cause damage
    * Deliberately destroys other's property

Deceitfulness, lying, or stealing

    * Has broken into someone else's building, house, or car
    * Lies to obtain goods, or favors or to avoid obligations
    * Steals items without confronting a victim (e.g. shoplifting, but without breaking and entering)

Serious violations of rules

    * Often stays out at night despite parental objections
    * Runs away from home
    * Often truant from school

Children who exhibit these behaviors should receive a comprehensive evaluation. Many children with a conduct disorder may have coexisting conditions such as mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, ADHD, learning problems, or thought disorders which can also be treated. Research shows that youngsters with conduct disorder are likely to have ongoing problems if they and their families do not receive early and comprehensive treatment. Without treatment, many youngsters with conduct disorder are unable to adapt to the demands of adulthood and continue to have problems with relationships and holding a job. They often break laws or behave in an antisocial manner.
Many factors may contribute to a child developing conduct disorder, including brain damage, child abuse, genetic vulnerability, school failure, and traumatic life experiences.
Treatment of children with conduct disorder can be complex and challenging. Treatment can be provided in a variety of different settings depending on the severity of the behaviors. Adding to the challenge of treatment are the child's uncooperative attitude, fear and distrust of adults. In developing a comprehensive treatment plan, a child and adolescent psychiatrist may use information from the child, family, teachers, and other medical specialties to understand the causes of the disorder.
Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger. Special education may be needed for youngsters with learning disabilities. Parents often need expert assistance in devising and carrying out special management and educational programs in the home and at school. Treatment may also include medication in some youngsters, such as those with difficulty paying attention, impulse problems, or those with depression.
Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time. However, early treatment offers a child a better chance for considerable improvement and hope for a more successful future.

[OverLordd]

What the fuck? Behaving badly is a disorder now? And another question. Why would a kid have PTSD without visiting a fucking program? This of course exclused rapes and sexual abuses that can cause such things. Can it be cause by pysical abuse as well?

Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger.

Here is a good question... what is approate and who decides it? I have found it quiet apporpriate to get into fights. My mother does not like it when I sream, I dont find it satisfying to beat on a pillow. My First Seargent curses like a salior when he is angry. (I never thought you could have the words fuck and shit combined so many ways in a sentance) What is the right way to deal with anger, and who picks that way, and why do we have to listen to them?

Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time.

And here we have the first hint of the programs!!!

[Anonymous]

Conduct Disorder


By the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

"Conduct disorder" is a complicated group of behavioral and emotional problems in youngsters. Children and adolescents with this disorder have great difficulty following rules and behaving in a socially acceptable way. They are often viewed by other children,      s and social agencies as "bad" or delinquent, rather than mentally ill.
Children or adolescents with conduct disorder may exhibit some of the following behaviors:
Aggression to people and animals
Bullies, threatens or intimidates others
Often initiates physical fights
Has used a weapon that could cause serious physical harm to others (e.g. a bat, brick, broken bottle, knife or gun)
Is physically cruel to people or animals
Steals from a victim while confronting them (e.g. assault)
Forces someone into    ual activity
Destruction of Property
Deliberately engaged in fire setting with the intention to cause damage
Deliberately destroys other's property
Deceitfulness, lying, or stealing
Has broken into someone else's building, house, or car
Lies to obtain goods, or favors or to avoid obligations
Steals items without confronting a victim (e.g. shoplifting, but without breaking and entering)
Serious violations of rules
Often stays out at night despite parental objections
Runs away from home
Often truant from school
Children who exhibit these behaviors should receive a comprehensive evaluation. Many children with a conduct disorder may have coexisting conditions such as mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, substance abuse, ADHD, learning problems, or thought disorders which can also be treated. Research shows that youngsters with conduct disorder are likely to have ongoing problems if they and their families do not receive early and comprehensive treatment. Without treatment, many youngsters with conduct disorder are unable to adapt to the demands of      hood and continue to have problems with relationships and holding a job. They often break laws or behave in an antisocial manner.
Many factors may contribute to a child developing conduct disorder, including brain damage, child abuse, genetic vulnerability, school failure, and traumatic life experiences.
Treatment of children with conduct disorder can be complex and challenging. Treatment can be provided in a variety of different settings depending on the severity of the behaviors. Adding to the challenge of treatment are the child's uncooperative attitude, fear and distrust of      s. In developing a comprehensive treatment plan, a child and adolescent psychiatrist may use information from the child, family, teachers, and other medical specialties to understand the causes of the disorder.
Behavior therapy and psychotherapy are usually necessary to help the child appropriately express and control anger. Special education may be needed for youngsters with learning disabilities. Parents often need expert assistance in devising and carrying out special management and educational programs in the home and at school. Treatment may also include medication in some youngsters, such as those with difficulty paying attention, impulse problems, or those with depression.
Treatment is rarely brief since establishing new attitudes and behavior patterns takes time. However, early treatment offers a child a better chance for considerable improvement and hope for a more successful future.

[Anonymous]

Unfortunately, any kid who is not behaviorally correct can be labeled with a "conduct disorder" and shipped off to a behavior mod warehouse.

It's a racket ... and parents who are naive, desperate, gullible, or just plain stupid, fall for this crap like flies on honey.

[bandit1978]

Truth Searcher-   I know it may be difficult, but maybe try to be supportive of your daughters personal style (clothing, hair, jewelry, ect...).  Encourage her to express herself this way- it's healthy!

Although I never went through a full-time "Goth" phase,  I do have a couple gothic-style outfits, which I still enjoy wearing out occassionally.  I'm 27yo, and just last year, I dyed my (natual) blonde hair to dark burgandy.  When I was in college, sometimes I put burgandy or hot pink streaks in my hair.

Sometimes it just feels good to wear dark things.  It's an affirmation that you are an individual, and creative and beautiful, especially when everyone around you is wearing Abercrombie.  

As for your daugher's dislike of school- there are lots of potential reasons for that.

If this is financially possible, I would recommend that you let your daughter pick her own school, maybe a boarding school.  

I was allowed to do that (upon leaving Provo Canyon).  I had a big book of all these private and boarding schools all over the country and abroad.  I picked out 3 or 4 places to visit and interview at.

There are all kinds of schools out there (some with demanding academics, some less demanding.  Some focus on art, some on environmental science, some on sports, anything you can think of).  Visiting the schools allows your child to meet other students, and she can decide for herself where she thinks she will fit in best.  

You really can't hate school when you picked it yourself!  And public school is tough, in a lot of ways, and I hated it too.

I am so happy I was given the opportunity to choose my own school.  It was really the best thing for me.  It was so interesting to learn about all these different schools, and how many kids get to choose where they go for high school?  I just wish my parents would have allowed me to do that before sending me to Provo Canyon School, which was a terrible place.

[Truth Searcher]

Bandit ~
Thanks for the encouragement.  I am trying to find peace with her new personal style.  I understand that this is her expression.  It is just an adjustment for me.  She used to be the cover child for American Eagle.  And I could handle occasional black.  But, its every day, and head to toe.  (Even black nail polish... LOL)  Ahhhh..... well......  so it is.  I still see her inner beauty.

School is actually going better.  She has made some connections with some good kids and seems much more positive.  We actually talked about a boarding school.  But, finances would not allow it.  And she really is glad to be home.  I think she equates boarding school with her therapeutic placement.  So thats where we are.

But, again, thanks for the encouragement.

[Anonymous]

I know the parent of a seriously goth kid who tried everything she could to make her daughter change her appearance.  Nothing worked until she stopped looking at her kid as a possession, something she "owned" instead of the unique individual she is.  Once she did this, the communication lines opened up.  No more yelling.  No more threats (do as I say OR ELSE!).  She even went shopping at some local flea markets and used clothing stores with her daughter to help her find clothes and accessories to match her gothic taste.

After about 6 months, the girl grew out of her gothic phase and to this day, they both laugh about it.  The girl is now in college majoring in child psychology.  LOL ... guess it just goes to show that sometimes (maybe alot of the time) parents who learn to embrace their kid's individuality (creativity) by focusing on the positive, instead of the negative, can and do end up with kids who turn out pretty darn good.

There is no magic bullet.  Hating your kid for not acting and looking like YOU is a huge mistake.  Take the TOUGH outta love and you might be surprised at how easy it is to look at your child and be thankful they are on the planet.