Genreal Discussion on the WWASP Parent's BBS??

[Nihilanthic]

On 2005-11-19 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-11-18 13:57:00, Antigen wrote:


"Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?





Chi, glad your daughter is doing so well. I sure wish there were more like you.

Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813912652/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> James Madison

"

The programs work "good" because they don't spend time and money supporting the work of their enemies. Say whatever you want, but don't expect me to buy you a microphone. If you had a neighbor you hated, would you be pissy about him not inviting you into his house to bitch at him?



The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them. That in no way implies anything to hide. It just implies the programs aren't run by idiots.



 :wave: "

"They work good because they dont support their enemies". Huh? Thats all you need to do to 'work'? Why not explain how a program works, or demonstrate such with facts - and no, WWASPS press releases of 90-something% success rate dont appply. Unbaised 3rd party stuff would though, got any?

"The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them". Uh, who the fuck would admit what theyre doing wrong to their own customer base? Nobody here is accusing WWASPS of being STUPID, baghead. But, thanks for explaining that theyre not idiots.

Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.

We meet every day in school a reflection of the national leadership class displaying every indication it has abandoned its fundamental American obligation to raise ordinary people up, becoming instead an overseas transmitter of the original mother ideas of England.

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16f.htm' target='_new'>John Taylor Gatto

[Anonymous]

My experience has been individual who so musch as QUESTION what they feel may be something odd about why and how come about the program they were booted.

No trahing wa snecessary.Off they went.

Try and tell it to someone who doesnt KNOW the TRUTH.

Pathetic fool.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.

Regarding something here, but not facts . . .

Maybe some programs use these tactics, but I've worked at several, and never saw the boogeymen you claim are there.

Mind control: The kids arrive at programs out of control, and the idea is to teach them to create it for themselves. You teach it, demonstrate it, have them practice it, and reinforce it with rewards (In college, we called that "education." Eventually, they learn to do it just because running your own life feels good.

24/7 humiliation and fear: Oh, come on, who the hell has the time, money, or energy to put into methods that don't even work? The programs I've seen find it far easier and more productive to create a safe and compassionate environment for the kids and the staff. Frankly, it's just too much work to be bad guys on this level.

Turning their parents against them: Now that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Alienate the parents so they feel they're really getting their money's worth.

When kids arrive, their parents are already feeling a lot of tension in the relationship, and the kids are usually outright defiant. Since that's already the case, programs hardly need to expend a lot of time working toward such a dubious goal.

It makes much more sense to include the whole family in the process of growth---Oh, wait a minute, there's those evil seminars again. So if the parents aren't included in the seminars, programs are evil for keeping families apart, and if the parents are included, then the programs are guilty of brainwashing the whole family.

 :rofl:

I guess I should apologize for my sarcasm, but man, it's so hard to take this shit seriously! Have you ever even seen a program?! So no, on second thought, no apology.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-11-21 09:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"QUOTE: Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.



Regarding something here, but not facts . . .



Maybe some programs use these tactics, but I've worked at several, and never saw the boogeymen you claim are there.



Mind control: The kids arrive at programs out of control, and the idea is to teach them to create it for themselves. You teach it, demonstrate it, have them practice it, and reinforce it with rewards (In college, we called that "education." Eventually, they learn to do it just because running your own life feels good.



24/7 humiliation and fear: Oh, come on, who the hell has the time, money, or energy to put into methods that don't even work? The programs I've seen find it far easier and more productive to create a safe and compassionate environment for the kids and the staff. Frankly, it's just too much work to be bad guys on this level.



Turning their parents against them: Now that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Alienate the parents so they feel they're really getting their money's worth.



When kids arrive, their parents are already feeling a lot of tension in the relationship, and the kids are usually outright defiant. Since that's already the case, programs hardly need to expend a lot of time working toward such a dubious goal.



It makes much more sense to include the whole family in the process of growth---Oh, wait a minute, there's those evil seminars again. So if the parents aren't included in the seminars, programs are evil for keeping families apart, and if the parents are included, then the programs are guilty of brainwashing the whole family.



 :rofl:



I guess I should apologize for my sarcasm, but man, it's so hard to take this shit seriously! Have you ever even seen a program?! So no, on second thought, no apology. "

You dodge so well, you should be a lawyer or politician. Maybe you are.

1. 24/7 humiliation is cheap when those implementing it are upper level clients and not paid staff.

2. Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.

3. Posters against programs never condemn parental involvement per se. They condemn these particular seminars as being based on harmful models that were sued out of existence in the 1980s (Lifespring, est). These seminars are designed by the very people that were sued in the 1980s. They are simply running the same scam with different victims.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.


But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:

Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.

So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.

And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write.

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-11-21 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.


But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:



Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.

I am sure this is legally true, but not practical. There is no witness to the abuse and the teen with a reputation for lying therefore needs more protection, not less, as the abuser is well aware that the parents don't trust the teen. Also, the abuser can easily convince the parent that the poor kid is lying. Flying to Jamaica to investigate the teen's complaint is also unlikely. Let's face it, it boils down to the word of the teen vs the word of the staff or other teen committing the abuse.

So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.

In Jamaica, these authorities have no jurisdiction. Even the USA, they cannot investigate private, unlicensed facilities. Law enforcement needs a warrant.

And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write. "

Based on reports here and in news articles, a feature of WWASP programs is that the mail (and other forms of contact) are controlled by the program, not the parent. The program monitors the teen's mail and can censor it and even punish the teen for writing negative statements about the program.

I am not convinced there is adequate protection.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-21 23:58:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"

On 2005-11-21 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:


"QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.




But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:





Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.

I am sure this is legally true, but not practical. There is no witness to the abuse and the teen with a reputation for lying therefore needs more protection, not less, as the abuser is well aware that the parents don't trust the teen. Also, the abuser can easily convince the parent that the poor kid is lying. Flying to Jamaica to investigate the teen's complaint is also unlikely. Let's face it, it boils down to the word of the teen vs the word of the staff or other teen committing the abuse.

So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.

In Jamaica, these authorities have no jurisdiction. Even the USA, they cannot investigate private, unlicensed facilities. Law enforcement needs a warrant.

And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write. "

Based on reports here and in news articles, a feature of WWASP programs is that the mail (and other forms of contact) are controlled by the program, not the parent. The program monitors the teen's mail and can censor it and even punish the teen for writing negative statements about the program.



I am not convinced there is adequate protection."

I won't respond to comments about Jamaica or other out of country facilities, because I have no experience with that. But please check your facts on law enforcement and other investigations here in the states. Law enforcement can indeed go and ask about the child. They can ask to see them and talk to them. If the program wants some documentation, they can require that, but I have never heard of any doing so.

As far as practicality, that's not the issue for schools here in the USA. Surely if you felt your child was being maltreated, simple practicality would not take priority!

According to the laws of at least three states I looked at (most are available online), CPS has the authority to investigate abuse complaints no matter who owns or runs the school.

And basing your ideas about the mail handling on reports here and in the news is a mistake. Read the policies and procedures of the individual schools.

I am speaking from my own experience. You are absolutely mistaken about how this works.

[Anonymous]

No the person is not mistaken. Yor assertion doesnt make it fact.

When I called CPS after my child came home, the relative of the relative who worked there in the remote down in no where land, wasnt interested in what I had to say.  

Because you say so doesnt make it true.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-18 13:57:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?

I will ask you to take a look at if it doesn't work, why are the schools full?  Why are there forums like this that are intended to discredit what does work?   You forget that it's not the program itself that works, it's the out of control teen that has to buy into it.  The program is the vehicle not the results.  These type of forums serve the purpose by using fear to control.  

If a kid doesn't want to buy into it, there are a hundred ways to maintain control of mum and dad...even when they're in the program.  Gotta love it.

PHX

[Anonymous]

I will ask you to take a look at if it doesn't work, why are the schools full?

because there are plenty of program shills out there, like you, referring other parents in exchange for thousands of dollars in cash or services to these hell-holes. just because something is prevalent, does not make it right.

If a kid doesn't want to buy into it, there are a hundred ways to maintain control of mum and dad...even when they're in the program.

you are insane. the control goes ONE way. the parents are under control by their own unjusitified fears... only to be played upon by WWASP officials.. such as yourself. go back to your hole, troll.

[Anonymous]

WWASP is a cult, a very profitable one. There is no debate, other than what we should do to shut these places down. Arguing the legality, or morality of these programs with programmies is a waste of time. A complete waste of time. At least for those who lived it, because we know. Obviously, the program supporters do not. If they do, then they are brainwashed, like in any cult. Shut the cult down!!!  :evil:

[AtomicAnt]

I won't respond to comments about Jamaica or other out of country facilities, because I have no experience with that. But please check your facts on law enforcement and other investigations here in the states. Law enforcement can indeed go and ask about the child. They can ask to see them and talk to them. If the program wants some documentation, they can require that, but I have never heard of any doing so.

I already have, and while the laws do vary from state to state, no, law enforcement cannot just waltz onto private property and start questioning juveniles. They need a warrant.

Just go and read the headlines about the boy who killed his 14-year-old girlfriend's parents in PA. The couple fled to IN. IN police were not permitted to interview the girl because IN law says minors can only be interviewed while their parent or guardian are present.

As far as practicality, that's not the issue for schools here in the USA. Surely if you felt your child was being maltreated, simple practicality would not take priority!

How can you say this? Utah is very far away from New Jersey or Virginia.

According to the laws of at least three states I looked at (most are available online), CPS has the authority to investigate abuse complaints no matter who owns or runs the school.

That's right. Someone has to file a complaint. The incarcerated teen is not permitted this basic protection.

And basing your ideas about the mail handling on reports here and in the news is a mistake. Read the policies and procedures of the individual schools.

My 'ideas' about the mail are taken from WWASPS own contract. I quote from one:

Due to the potential harm that certain mail could cause your child or progress, we as legal guardians (having both legal an physical custody) direct and authorize Tranquility Bay and its staff to monitor all outgoing and incoming mail.

They are all pretty much the same.

Certainly, this has a chilling effect on what a client will write and opens the door for punishing negative remarks or abuse allegations.

I am speaking from my own experience. You are absolutely mistaken about how this works.

As parent, client, or staff? Just curious.

[IDunno]

These programs that have been created to "better your children" are full of shit. there are things that i got out of the program but i have to say that i wish i could erase them. Starting day one I learned the key to success, which was manipulation. I knew if i could make friends and learn how to make people think i was ok and getting better the sooner i was going home.  little did i know by faking it until i made it would ruin my life. I dont know how to be myself anymore. Every situation i get myself in I automatically think on how to manipulate the situation. Everyday i am afraid that someone might find out that i am empty inside. This place took everything from(my deepest secrets, the bad experiences that drove my life, my passions) now all i have is this unmanagable apathy towords life. sometimes i think the thing that will help me is to contact some of my friends i met there but they are nowhere to be found because fucked up parents dont want their kids names to be mentioned. i have a message to you all. FUCK YOU!!!! see i am a depressive and when everything was taken out of me, i realized that i had to face life. well the truth is that i wasnt ready to face life quite so fast and in return that was even more depressing. well having that said i can no longer continue with this post. I want people to respond and in doing so you will get an answer for any question you may have and untill next time......good day

[Anonymous]

My heart goes out to you and I hope that you are able to find your way back to yourself. Have you communicated with KAT on the Mission Mountain Thread? She had a really rough time of it too, and might have some ideas for you on where you can turn for some real help. In time you will be able to heal the spirit those despicable people so badly damaged. I can tell it is still in there because you still have spunk and passion,  and are able to articulate the problems they caused you very well. Communicate with others who have been been through it, even if they are from different programs. Best of luck to you.

[Cayo Hueso]

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time.  I've been there a few times myself.  don't know who long you'v been "out", but once you really begin to realize what happened to you sometimes the pain and anger get overwhelming.  All I can say is it does pass.  Dont' get me wrong, it comes back again but it seems like its a little easier to deal with each time.  

When I get really bad like that I put in my fav. cd and go for  walk on the beach.  Sound cliche, but more than half the time it settles me enough to start again.

It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.

--Joseph Goebbels