Wisdom Ranch School

[jellybean]

I didn't come to a "hate: site as you call it on purpose.  I was looking for some new avenues to help me find my own information. Trust me I haven't taken one of these folks advice without further checking it out on my own or anyone else's for that matter.  i have been researching schools for about 2 months and I have called the parents and spoken to kids about many programs. at one point I asked someone, and I don't even remember what site it was, about the school. I couldn't find anything seriously adverse about Wisdom Ranch and that't why I posted here. Before I ever logged onto this site i found some attrocious things about many schools written by parents and children, the folks here referred me to those sites again. I have said this before, I do think there are good programs out there, but I have found bad things on most all of the those I've looked at in person and on line.  One program had an ad for Diamond Ranch that was hiring some kind of staff for oversight or something that said no experience necessary, will train, What!?. I am smart enough to know that everything isn't Disneyland, except Disneyland and I want to know the people who have been unsatisfied and I can judge my self whether they were just complaining or it was abuse they underwent. It does happen.  Doing research on my own has been intensive, but I wouldn't hire a consultant to do it for me.  I do know that kickbacks are prevalent in every big business and that does not give them the ability to be objective, in my mind.  Do educational consultants sign on for any liability for their referrals?  i bet embedded in their contracts is a release from liability.  I'll rely on my own judgement thanks.  I did check out struggling teens long before i ever ended up on this site.  There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:

"I didn't come to a "hate: site as you call it on purpose.  I was looking for some new avenues to help me find my own information. Trust me I haven't taken one of these folks advice without further checking it out on my own or anyone else's for that matter.  i have been researching schools for about 2 months and I have called the parents and spoken to kids about many programs. at one point I asked someone, and I don't even remember what site it was, about the school. I couldn't find anything seriously adverse about Wisdom Ranch and that't why I posted here. Before I ever logged onto this site i found some attrocious things about many schools written by parents and children, the folks here referred me to those sites again. I have said this before, I do think there are good programs out there, but I have found bad things on most all of the those I've looked at in person and on line.  One program had an ad for Diamond Ranch that was hiring some kind of staff for oversight or something that said no experience necessary, will train, What!?. I am smart enough to know that everything isn't Disneyland, except Disneyland and I want to know the people who have been unsatisfied and I can judge my self whether they were just complaining or it was abuse they underwent. It does happen.  Doing research on my own has been intensive, but I wouldn't hire a consultant to do it for me.  I do know that kickbacks are prevalent in every big business and that does not give them the ability to be objective, in my mind.  Do educational consultants sign on for any liability for their referrals?  i bet embedded in their contracts is a release from liability.  I'll rely on my own judgement thanks.  I did check out struggling teens long before i ever ended up on this site.  There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

"

Wow, good points.

In answer to your question, I am not sure about the liability of educational consultants but I do believe the majority of ed consultants are paid by parents, NOT the programs they refer to.

Waiver and Terms of Use for PURE (who gets paid for referrals by the programs, themselves) as published on their website:

Waiver:

We recommend adolescent services including schools, programs, treatment alternatives, therapists, and transport services; We do not own, control, manage, nor direct any individuals or companies that provide these services. We do not assume any liability or responsibility, implied or otherwise for said services. All liability or responsibility for any recommended services is assumed entirely by the service provider, as outlined in their individual enrollment agreements with the parent/sponsors.

Terms of Use:

THE INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THIS SITE IS PROVIDED "AS-IS," "AS AVAILABLE," AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, ARE DISCLAIMED (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE DISCLAIMER OF ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE). THE INFORMATION MAY CONTAIN ERRORS, PROBLEMS OR OTHER LIMITATIONS. OUR SOLE AND ENTIRE MAXIMUM LIABILITY FOR ANY INACCURATE INFORMATION, FOR ANY REASON, AND USER'S SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER, SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID BY THE CUSTOMER FOR THE INFORMATION RECEIVED (IF ANY). WE ARE NOT LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS, LOSS OF PROFITS, LITIGATION, OR THE LIKE). WHETHER BASED ON BREACH OF CONTRACT, BREACH OF WARRANTY, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), PRODUCT LIABILITY OR OTHERWISE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. THE LIMITATIONS OF DAMAGES SET FORTH ABOVE ARE FUNDAMENTAL ELEMENTS OF THE BASIS OF THE BARGAIN BETWEEN US AND YOU. WE WOULD NOT PROVIDE THIS SITE AND INFORMATION WITHOUT SUCH LIMITATIONS. NO REPRESENTATIONS, WARRANTIES OR GUARANTEES WHATSOEVER ARE MADE AS TO THE ACCURACY, ADEQUACY, RELIABILITY, CURRENTNESS, COMPLETENESS, SUITABILITY OR APPLICABILITY OF THE INFORMATION TO A PARTICULAR SITUATION.

source:  http://helpyourteens.com/terms_of_use.html

[Anonymous]

Jellybean:  I'd stay away from anything associated with either WWASP or PURE.  You can ask about specific programs on Struggling Teens and get private responses from parents with experiences there, good or bad.

[Antigen]

"

On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:

 There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.

See, that seems to be the best case in this industry; ineffective but relatively benign. In the worst cases, it's ineffective and harmful. I just don't think there's any better way to raise kids than by hand. Instead of looking for people who promise help w/ troubling teens, why not just think of some things that you think might be helpful. What about a family vacation? Hiking and camping are cheap and the fall colors will be hitting the NE soon. It's amazing sometimes what a little change of scene can do for just about anybody's mood and head.

I think animal testing is a terrible idea;  they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.    
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-04 17:42:00, Antigen wrote:

""

On 2005-09-04 08:05:00, jellybean wrote:


 There were some good stories, but I saw alot of parents struggling with the same issues with their children when they got home. This entire issue is so sad and it's epidemic.

See, that seems to be the best case in this industry; ineffective but relatively benign. In the worst cases, it's ineffective and harmful. I just don't think there's any better way to raise kids than by hand. Instead of looking for people who promise help w/ troubling teens, why not just think of some things that you think might be helpful. What about a family vacation? Hiking and camping are cheap and the fall colors will be hitting the NE soon. It's amazing sometimes what a little change of scene can do for just about anybody's mood and head.

I think animal testing is a terrible idea;  they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.    
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie

"

This is good, sage advice Ginger.  I often wonder about the kids in these behavior mod warehouses, boot camps, wilderness programs who given the chance to spend time with their parent(s) away from the "negative influence" of their peer group (not my words, this is the teen help industry's sales pitch) wouldn't agree the experience was more helpful to them then sitting in OP for hours, even days on end, with nothing better to do than wonder if their parents know (or even care) what's really going on in these places?

Parenting by program manuals is NOT the answer, it is a $50k crutch.  A colossal rip off.  

 :eek:
u

[Anonymous]

This isnt the best metaphor but Im trying... I can understand the situation that jellybean is in. JB has  tried a lot of different things to address the childs negative behaviors.

Here goes...
My cars acting up. I try to troubleshoot with the basic info that I have about cars. Car doesnt get better, is getting a little worse. So I go to the library and check out some books. Try a couple different things and still no luck. So I make some phone calls and collect more info. The guys on the phone try to help but its hard to problem solve on the phone. Can I possibly bring the car in? Yeah, we might have to keep it for a while. And it might be expensive to fix. Im wondering if maybe a mechanic might come out to the house and fix it or maybe teach ME how to fix it?

I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? Possibly, but how do I know the guy willing to teach knows what hes doing? The one-on-one instructor situation is rare - in just about everything from auto mechanics to bread baking. Its out there but hard to find. Or you can battle it out with books and manuals. My point is that yes, its a great suggestion to go off on a vacation with the children and raise them yourself but parents out there are admitting they need  more tools. I dont know what the solution is but parents like jellybean are trying. This website for the most part condemns programs but I dont see much in the way of creative thinking to come up with options.

[Antigen]

Yes, but we're not talking about complicated machines designed and built by automobile experts (under directive from unions, regulators, et al) We're talking about a boy; a young human manufactured in mind and body by people. Human beings and other creatures on this planet have been raising our offspring w/o professional help for millenea. You want to look at examples of civilizations that gave over that profound responsibility to the pros?

Ok, Uncle Joe subjected all citizens of the USSR to his government shrinks. How'd that work out for him? Following that model, Fidel has brought about an impressive child rearing machine in Cuba. Ask a Cuban about Fidel's much vaunted free public education, including mandatory rural boarding school for city kids. It's easy to find someone w/ firsthand experience of that. Just go to Miami and ask the first person you meet who has a strong Cuban accent. It'll probably be the first person you meet. Then there's Hitler Youth. All good intentions aside (and I do believe most Germans had the best of intentions in the beginning of that nightmare), how did that work out for them?

Nobody, not the cops or teachers or shrinks, let alone self declared troubled teen experts, knows this kid or will ever care nearly as much about him as his mother, his old friends and solid family. Nobody. Bar none. Shit, you won't even remember this lady's screen name or situation even 10 years from now. But the man will still be her son.

It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples

--Charles Dickens

[Shortbus]

I too dont agree with removing children en masse from the family home. I do feel that there can be some benefits found in removing a child from an unsafe home environment. As with everything, there are exceptions. I have had friends that have had to live with the knowledge that their mother had wished they had never been born. And Ive had numerous students that have told me the same thing. What kind of parent looks a child in the eye and tells them they wish they had never gotten pregnant? Is home a good, safe place for that child? Through history there have been children raised by others, I think the apprentice system was set up like that. When your parents couldnt afford another mouth to feed you were sent off and raised by someone else. You worked for your food but you had a place. I dont necessarily agree with any of these practices, but any of these might be better than the situation the child is in.... Just a mile a way from my home - in an affluent part of St. Paul, Minnesota the cops found a dog kennel in the basement where the parents would lock up their daughter when she was misbehaving.... this childs parents are nutbags and shouldnt be allowed to raise their kids. They are better off in someone elses hands.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-05 06:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? "

I wouldn't go looking to WWASP for help with this one. David Gilcrease, a software engineer is the one who developed all of their 'tools' in the seminars. I have been through them, and they are the most ridiculous, laughable scam I've personally come across. It isn't so funny when you are locked up and forced to go though, not funny at all. What's funny is to realize what idiots your parents really are, after a few years of reflection. The craziest people are the ones who buy into it. It's not therapy, it's not tools, it's nothing. Not sure how to explain it other than a scam. That's all it is.

[Nonconformistlaw]

Shortbus, your right about how bad some parents are, that kids need to be as far away from them as possible. I've seen a lot of cases where parents are shockingly abusive to their kids.

But on the other hand, many parents do not fall into that category. My dad for example, is a decent person, who really tried the best he could and was at his wits end with me....But I think with him he overreacted to my problems and Straight preyed on his worst fears as a parent (that I might end up dead, in jail or insane without the program).

So I guess I think many parents are truely desperate to find a solution and programs convince them that their program offers an immediate instant cure. Since when are human probelms solved by miraculous quick fixes?

I have a feeling parents fall into 3 very general categories...1) abusive, 2) good parents who are just desparate for a solution and want to do the right thing, and 3) parents who just dont want to deal with the "problem child" anymore so dump them into a program to do their work for them.

What is sad to me is the good parents that are really trying to do the right thing have difficulty in finding the right solution...and with all the misleading program advertising...it really doesnt surprise me how very well meaning parents get sucked in to the scam...and with all the programs out there....I can imagine how difficult it might be to distinguish a good one from a bad one because all programs paint very pretty pictures of the "amazing" results their program "guarantees." Its sad that there are so few decent options for parents, when extreme options are truly needed that is.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-06 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-09-05 06:51:00, Anonymous wrote:


"I dont have the skills/tools to fix the car. Can I find someone to teach me how? "

I wouldn't go looking to WWASP for help with this one. David Gilcrease, a software engineer is the one who developed all of their 'tools' in the seminars. I have been through them, and they are the most ridiculous, laughable scam I've personally come across. It isn't so funny when you are locked up and forced to go though, not funny at all. What's funny is to realize what idiots your parents really are, after a few years of reflection. The craziest people are the ones who buy into it. It's not therapy, it's not tools, it's nothing. Not sure how to explain it other than a scam. That's all it is."

Large Group Awareness Training (LGAT) is what the WWASPS seminars are all about.  Junk, voodoo, science that makes otherwise lousy parents feel good about themselves ... or should I say, their magical child?

Check out the cult info websites for more info on LGAT seminars like est, Lifespring, The Forum, etc.

 :eek:

[Anonymous]

What about parents who put their kids in programs knowing the program is controversial?  What kind of parent is that?

[Anonymous]

On 2005-09-06 23:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"What about parents who put their kids in programs knowing the program is controversial?  What kind of parent is that?



"

An irresponsible, lazy, dangerous parent.

[OverLordd]

I stand by the belief today that not all programs are evil. Evil programs do exsist, and it is up to the parents to investigate these places throughly.

While I agree with what TSW says a lot of the time. This is where TSW and I clash. I believe a "Fruit of a poisoned tree" theory. Let me explain here. I think that the first of these Teen Help Programs were faulty, and I believe that all derivatives have been fucked up. We start with Syanon, moves up the tree to seed and straight, then we have WWASP CEDU, and from these groups we have break off small more independent schools and organizations. I think that the only thing that could make me think the industry was ok was if a new, progressively radical, type of program was started; Something that does not have its base in the abusive programs.

[Anonymous]

Bottom line is only kids who are a danger to themselves (suicidal) or another (psychotic) need to be placed in a secure (locked) facility and even then, experts say 90 days is about the average time needed to stablize them.

These long-term hyper-vigilent residental schools, camps and programs are nothing more than private, parent-funded teen prisons.  

Problem is parents won't admit it ... they are too defiant ... and there lies the irony.  Defiant parents, not teens, are what drive the for-profit teen help industry.

:smokin: