Author Topic: One more thing...  (Read 16127 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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One more thing...
« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2005, 07:10:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-08-27 18:45:00, rjfro22 wrote:
"I was in the Seed in 1973 SR84

and I am here to say 33 years later , I hold them responsible for forcing me to to learn how love myself,

and how dare they guide me in a direction where I learned how to actually hold a job and could you believe they even made me stay away from my druggie friends and dysfuntional family so I could see there was a future if I stayed sober and drug free, It's their fault I am alive today a some what happy artist/ not model/ not actor  living in sunny California.  

Sincerly,

Brainwashed :scared: "
Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me  those people should be held accountable for forcing me to celebrate my 50th birthday, as a functional, intelligent, happy, gifted, loved human being!  (also) Brainwashed in SO CAL... :wave:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2005, 11:38:00 AM »
I came to the seed on my own. I had just turned 18, a senior in High School. My best friend made me promise to follow him in.  I thought I was much more fucked up than he was, So I told my mother I needed help.  She tried talking me into seeing her shrink (that she had been seeing for the last 10 or so years) I threw a fit and figured he did nothing for her, how could he help me. At the time I felt like "I'm not telling that guy shit" She took me to the seed next day.  Now I was a pretty screwed up kid way before drugs ever entered the picture.  Low self esteem no ambition, not really good at too much of anything(as far as I was concerened) I was an extremely emotionally distrought young man.   I feared being drafted and being sent to Vietnam because I knew I would probably blow my brains out or run and hide.  I feared I had many deep rooted problems, because I did not understand myself at all.
 My father was an alcoholic (but an extremely talented and highly intelligent man. Just drunk on the floor passed out on his off days. (he was a fireman & I think sober for work)(I guess he didn't understand himself at the time either)Since has died but lived sober in AA for 25 years.
 I wasn't a bad looking guy, blonde haired blue eyed 6 ft tall. But I felt like an ugly weird strange person.
(and I'm sure some will argue and say "all teenagers feel that way to a certain extent" and that may be true, but I didn't want to live.)
 At the seed, people treated me kindly, I did not fear them.  I trusted them and felt some sort of alliance for good & got help. I fell in love with everyone at the seed.  As far as I was concerned I found a new family.  I treated everyone like they were a part of my family and looked after them and did right by them.  I remember kids looking up to me and following my example.  I felt like a big brother to alot of kids.  You can't fake that shit.  I remember one of the parents calling me the all american kid.  I had never felt like an "all american kid" now My world started to open up.  I felt good about me.  I no longer felt like the elephant man I really felt like a human being. I really felt for the first time in my life worth something.
I have since tried to apply everything that the seed taught me and incorporate it into my daily life.  Yes I have a couple of quirks here and there.  I really don't think I can blame that on the seed.  It would be nice if I could.

Sure the seed wasn't perfect.  Is your family? Not many are.  Actually as time went on I had a problem or two with control issues. Its hard to keep things one way for newcomers and any other way for graduates.  People were a little demanding.  Guess what I had a mouth, I used it.
Sure sometimes people did not like what I said, and I was blackballed from certain things for awhile.  Guess what I survived and I liked the person I was and isn't that what really counts?
My friends are my friends and those that arn't ...arn't.  The ideals were there.  If you lived them you really lived them and I hold true to them to this day.

Korean mind control? We never ate peanutbutter & jelly with chop sticks, if thats what you mean.  It was more like discipline that was much needed in my life. Were they a little pushy? yeah.  I needed a push. Sometimes a kick.  

I didn't want this to sound like the perfect little seed testimonial, but I guess it does in some ways.  Its the truth.

Sometime back people said didn't Art have a tatoo
on his arm? Yes he did from WW2 when he was just a kid himself. It bluraly now still reads "death before dishonor" and I believe, he really tried to live just that way... :smile:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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One more thing...
« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2005, 03:06:00 PM »
Man, how ironic. When talking about how good the Seed was, it's all about I, I, I, Me, Me, Me. As long as YOU all are happy and successful, where's the problem, right?

The problem is that the ProgramĀ® has not been such a good thing for everyone forced into it and has become the defacto method of therapy for people who violate the drug statutes. Then, as now, the intake "interview" (aka grilling) never had anything to do w/ substance abuse issues. It was always about deviation from some momentary, arbitrary rules.

Check out Dr. Peele's content on ASAM
http://www.peele.net/debate/talbott.html

You may notice, if you take the time to look into it, that Bobby DuPont (the shrink that Orwell warned us of) holds a seat on the BOD of that rather disturbing organization.

Program zealots have made a booming industry, largely publicly funded (ie welfare mamas and papas) of destroying the lives of people who reject their strident and often delusional beliefs about drugs.

That's the problem, guys. I'm glad ya'll have landed on your feet. But notice how few of us there are talking about it? And even those of us who are able and inclined to talk about it, I'd say it's about 50/50 pro/con. But don't confuse the drug nazis w/ facts or anything. They don't want to know. They just want the damned money and legal authority to continue their evangelical work and they tend to get downright nasty w/ anyone who questions anything they do, have done or propose to do. Just like in Group, only w/ guns and badges and legal authority to make arrests, suspend professional licensing and make legislation.

How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451524934/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Orwell, 1984

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline rjfro22

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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2005, 03:58:00 PM »
Ft. Lauderdale,
                          I am really glad we reconnected after all these years,  you are one really great person, you really helped a lot of people through the many years with your strenght and hope & dedication . You walk like you talk.  

God bless you Brother
rjfro22 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline marshall

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One more thing...
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2005, 10:59:00 PM »
I realize that many of you believe strongly that going to the Seed saved your life, freed you from drug / alcohol use and made you a better person. Others believe just as strongly that the experience actually harmed them on some level, had little or no effect upon subsequent drug use or may have actually made the problem worse and made them more prone to depression and anxiety.  Going back decades and trying to figure out what caused what can be a sort of mental masturbation...to borrow J.U.'s colorful term.

 I honestly have no idea whether or to what extent the Seed experience helped or hindered me as a whole. I think this is true for lots of events / experiences in my life. I may have spiralled down into drug addiction if I hadn't gone to the seed. I may also have stopped using drugs even without the program. (This being the most likely outcome)

I spent several months in prison before going to the Seed. I could even make a good case that 'Prison saved my life.' The fear of returning there was a strong incentive to avoiding illegal drugs. There's a good chance that if I'd attended the seed alone without that fear of incarceration hanging over my head for 5 years of probation I would have quickly returned to regular drug use. I simply don't know or claim to know. Prison was a horrible experience and I  would not wish it on anyone, especially a 17 yr. old kid. But it may have saved my life. The examples could go on to the more trivial. Maybe taking that right turn at that red light instead of the left saved my life. Maybe some particular phrase uttered by staff saved my life. Maybe that mangey dog crossing in my path saved my life. It's an exercise in futility, imo.

If both sides of the issue would examine this issue closely I think they'd have to honestly admit they have no idea at all as to what did or did not cause what. Some people killed themselves after graduating the Seed. If we are insistent upon crediting the program with all lives saved or suicides not committed...to be consistently honest, we must surely have to admit that the seed may have been the cause of their suicides as well.

I tend to be on the skeptical side of the 'seed saved my life' claim for several reasons. The biggest one being that this claim itself was a part of the teaching of the seed. If that claim were never mentioned as part of the program (ing)  and a large group of graduates simply came to the independant conclusion that 'Indeed, the Seed saved my life' I would tend to give the claim more credence. But the claim was not only mentioned, it was regularly drilled into us beginning as newcomers. 'If' there was any degree of conditioning or thought-reform taking place there,  this claim was surely a large part of it. It may simply be part of the dogma / conditioning to think this is true and endlessly repeat it or defend it when challenged. We're hindered in an objective examination somewhat by the fact that only 'living' seedlings can make this claim. Those who are dead can not sign on here and make the counterclaim that the Seed did not save my life or 'the seed caused me to commit suicide.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline marshall

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« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2005, 11:00:00 PM »
Some of you have mentioned several of your old friends that have died (presumably of overdose or drug / alcohol related problems) and I have no reason to doubt you on this. However, again, in my own experience as far as I know none of my "old druggie friends" have died due to any of this. (one acquantance from high school did crash his car into a tree while drunk and died) The vast majority have either stopped using drugs completely on their own or smoke pot occassionally. Most are married, some divorced, some successful, some less so. I have no reason to believe my own life would have turned out much different from theirs. The only one that spent any time in prison was indirectly put there by me...I am ashamed to say. I turned states' evidence to avoid extensive prison time. We spoke a few years ago and he holds no hard feelings...we were both kids.
 
There is also the issue of continued drug or alcohol abuse. Part of the claim is that the Seed was the definitive cause of  getting off drugs and alcohol. Being a drug-rehab, this claim was also itself an integral part of the content of what we were taught. It was drummed into us that 'the seed got me straight.' Again, I'd give the claim more weight if it wasn't such a strong part of the program itself. If we were instead told that any number of programs, influences or teachings from various sources could be the cause of our getting straight (ceasing drug use) and graduates simply came to the independent conclusion that it was the Seed program rather than any other factors that was responsible for discontinued drug use this would carry more weight. Unlike the suicide issue, we have some testimony from people that graduated the seed and continued drug use.

It is this that makes me even more skeptical of the claim that the Seed is fully responsible for 'getting me straight'. As Greg has repeatedly pointed out, there are lots of people that claim the seed is solely responsible for their sobriety but who freely admit that they graduated the program and returned to drug or alcohol abuse..in many cases becoming heavier users than before the Seed. Many of the same people that are insistent in their claim that the seed saved them and got them straight are the very ones who have struggled with on-going problems of substance abuse. If I have a joint in one hand and a bag of coke in the other while mouthing the claim that the seed is responsible for my sobriety, (or make this claim in the intermittent periods when I'm drug-free)  this again lends support to the possibility that this claim is simply another conditioned response implanted by the seed itself. If I claim the Seed was the primary cause of saving me from substance abuse and yet I've been in AA off and on for years while experiencing intermittent problems with intoxicants...this reduces the claim to a purely subjective opinion. If we insist that the Seed program was the definitive cause of anyone who has successfully remained drug free, to be consistent we must also allow the possibility that it might be the cause of on-going or intensified drug abuse as well...or the more likely possibility (imo) that it simply was largely irrelevant to which of us did or didn't continue some form of abuse. The claim that most or all drug abusers end up insanedeadorinjail. is simply a lie. The vast majority don't even end up as drug abusers!

One poster also mentioned that she was 'more aware' than anyone else she knows. Again, I question claims of this sort simply because, once again, this too was a part of program dogma. We were all taught that we were more aware than 'all those others'..whether other straight people, graduates of other rehabs or certainly 'druggie assholes'.

An Anon. poster wrote this: "Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me those people should be held accountable for forcing me to celebrate my 50th birthday, as a functional, intelligent, happy, gifted, loved human being! (also) Brainwashed in SO CAL"

I don't take issue with this person's (admittedly glowing) self-evaluation. I do question whether any of this can be attributed to the Seed. I realize they do, but we were taught to do that on our program. What of all the former drug users (& I know of many) that never attended the seed or any rehab and are also happy, functional, etc.? How would you react if they attributed their own well-being to their former drug use? To finding Jesus? To converting to Islam? To Scientology (there are legions of these, btw)? To joining the libertarian party? Or to one of the other Seed knock-off programs?

This last poses unique questions. There are  former straightlings (though not as many as seedlings) that defend that program and attribute their sobriety to being on that program. Yet, the majority of seedlings seem to take a very dim view of Straight and their methods. John regards it as 'based in conceit and dangerous'. It's my understanding that straight was closed because of numerous charges (& convictions)  of abuse and mistreatment by staff. Does the fact that some people believe that Straight saved their lives and is the source of their happiness justify the existence of that program or it's many clones still in existence? The prevalent attitude amongst pro-seed defenders seems to be that only the Seed was good and pure with all other programs evil or defective. This is typical of religious and especially cultic devotees. It's an extreme and obvious case of 'the pot calling the kettle black.' So, all of those other programs are cults? Just not MY group! Right? They seem to think the same thing.

Sheesh...another freakin book! BTW, my daughter just gave birth to my latest grandson at 1:51 this a.m. Cigars for everyone! (Stripe & Ft. Lauderdale...glad to see u decided to stick around.) Goodnight all. :wave:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline GregFL

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One more thing...
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2005, 04:12:00 AM »
Congrats Grandpa!!!!
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Offline JaLong

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« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2005, 12:09:00 PM »
Congatulations on your first grandchild. I hope you find having a grandson blesses you, and brings you joy as my 2 have.  ::birthday::
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2005, 12:28:00 PM »
Congrat's! Does this make your 4th? Do you want my address for the cigar?  Kidding. :grin:
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2005, 02:17:00 PM »
Personally, I don't trust anyone anymore who says, "...[blank] saved my life..." because usually the person using this phrase is trying to sell me something - a religion, a product, a personality. I will never know for sure how my life turned out, if I had or hadn't done certain things or known certain people. We can't know the future. It's tough to figure out cause and effect. For example - half of all diseases go away on their own, spontaneously. Even doctors don't know why. Perhaps it was the medicine, perhaps it was diet, perhaps it was attitude or faith...or dumb luck. Besides, life is a terminal disease, and we will all die at some time anyway. So the question is, what we do with the time we have? Will I try to convert everyone I know to my views? Or will I be a good listener instead. Will I believe everything I hear? Or will I be a little skeptical, especially of easy answers and quick solutions.

I remember the proverb; "He who tells, knows not. He who knows, tells not."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline marshall

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« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2005, 04:18:00 PM »
Thanks all. This one is # 4. 2 from my son & 2 from oldest daughter. Still waiting on baby daughter's. She wanted to get established in her career first but hopes to start a family in the next 2 or 3 years. Anyway, it's still a strange role being the patriarch of a fairly large extended family.

Ja Long, so you're a grandma? Awesome. Grandkids were an unexpected joy for me. Didn't realize they'd bring so much happiness. BTW, you seem to have a very balanced, healthy attitude re the seed.

Walter,I think that quote is from the tao te ching. It usually translates something like; "He who knows does not speak (of the tao). He who speaks of it, does not know." Thanks as always for your input.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'