Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

One more thing...

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marshall:
Robin, between my insomnia and your being on the west coast, seems we're often on at the same time.  We talk alot here about the fact / mystery that so many of us came away from the seed with differing perspectives and experiences even though we went through the same program...sometimes at the same time. For some, it was overwhelmingly positve, for others negative. Reading your earlier post I think one big aspect of it is related to that one word 'FORCED'.

You desperately signed yourself into the program while I was directed to go or suffer prison. There are lots of examples and analogies that come to mind. Pardon the crudity, but two different women can have sex with the same man. One woman might be filled with remorse, disgust and resentment about the experience. The other might find the same act a warm, positive, loving encounter. How could this be possible? One was the man's wife while the other was forcibly raped by him. A person such as Mother Teresa might voluntarilly choose a life of poverty living on the streets of India and find this an uplifting, positive experience. Yet if most of us were uprooted against our will from the comforts of home and family and woke-up to a pauper's life in Calcutta we would be devasted and permanently scarred by the experience.  I think  those of us who were forced into the seed either by parents or by the courts might be more likely to find the experience something akin to psychological rape.

I wasn't an alcoholic or junkie at 17. The only time I ever stole anything at all was a piece of glassware from the school lab to make a waterpipe. Before I was sent to the Seed,  I had already  become disillusioned with much of the drug scene and hypocrisy that I observed. I was so sick of smoking pot that on many occassons I would buy an ounce, smoke a few joints and throw the rest away. Aside from all of that I basically liked much about myself. I wasn't nearly the evil person the seed insisted on forcing us to acknowledge. My attitude was probably no worse than (and better than many) other teens. To relate and gain approval on the program, I often had to pretend or exagerate my faults. I think this was probably true for most of us. I have no reason to distort or lie about this 30 years later, it's simply the honest truth as opposed to the seed truth.

The Seed proceeded to tear not only much of what I considered negative away from my personality, but also alot of what I had no desire to change. It didn't just supplant the attitudes and beliefs that I'd absorbed via peer pressure, it attempted to replace or alter aspects of my personality that I'd gotten from my own parents too. I did not want to be the type of person the seed seemed determined to make me. By this, I don't mean that I didn't want to be an honest, loving person. I felt that I was ceasing to be me at all and was starting to become what others (the seed) wanted me to be. Not only looking and acting a certain way, but in my thinking itself. During my 4th or 5th month on the program I started to actually feel that I'd been brainwashed to an extent. This was not a pleasant discovery. I saw a website the other day that asked; 'If you had been brainwashed, how would you know it?' and the answer; 'You wouldn't.' That was essentially the fear that took shape at that time. I tried to figure out some way that I could complete the program (I had no choice other than prison) without totally succumbing to what I felt happening to me. The eventual solution was to fragment my personality inwardly to try to preserve some kernel of 'me' while presenting the group and staff with the persona that they expected / created. I have little doubt that if I had not done this and remained blissfully ignorant of what was happening to me I would have been far happier or at least less conflicted while on my program. A good, conforming, smiling seedling. This created such inner conflict that I all but stopped relating in group until I graduated. That's why there was such relief at graduation. The charade ended. Unfortunately, I found that I had still lost much of myself. I was suspended between two worlds and nearly alone. I had no desire to return to my former lifestyle nor any desire to stay involved with the seed.

 I've tried to separate the wheat from the chaff, or as you say; take the best and forget the rest. There were many useful and good things I learned at the seed. As antigen has pointed out, none of these 'tools' were unique to the seed program. I'll list a few of the things I've found useful and positive;
discovering the relationship between ego and insecurity. The utter uselessness of self-pity. The discovery  that various attitudes and states of mind weren't simply given...that I had control over & was responsible for my own thoughts and attitudes. The benefit of what we called 'going through insecurities' rather than escaping from them. The discovery that much of what I thought was myself was simply a series of images..not just projected to others but to myself. The ultimate benefit of facing myself (being honest) even when this was painful in the short-term. Truly attempting to be indifferent to what others thought of me. If I wanted to be silly or seemingly childish or just different..I increasingly forced myself to do this despite my insecurities. (a positive effect of the hokey pokey maybe?) The direct relationship between being honest with myself and increasing awareness of other's mindsets and feelings...which, in-turn resulted in greater empathy. Not comparing myself to others. The power of conditioning  Our seemingly endless ability to justify and avoid.

I could go on, but you get the picture. Pursuing many of these teachings consistently did eventually lead me to apply them back to their source (for me)...the seed...uncovering the various 'straight' images, the seed conditioning, etc. as well as the various cultic aspects of the program.

It's sort of like encountering the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount via being forced into Jim Jones' People's Temple or hearing the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism via being forced into Aum Shinriko.  The fact that these teachings were presented by an organization that attempted to implant them by forceful, will-breaking, thought-reform and conditioning & controlled by a guy with a messianic complex does not negate their truth or usefulness. John U. said he  broke with the Seed because he felt his ultimate loyalty lay with the Seed itself rather than Art. My rejection / criticism of the Seed was / is  because I felt that my ultimate loyalty lay with the teachings themselves ( those that I chose to embrace) rather than either Art or an organization.

I've blabbed alot lately, so I'm gonna lurk for awhile rather than subject everyone to so much of  my blather. I'm not leaving or anything, just taking a break. I hope you at least see that I don't view the seed as entirely negative. Nor, for that matter do I view the hippy culture idealism as entirely negative. I've tried to salvage all the good that I can from any source. Please understand that any criticism I have of the program does not mean that I would rather you or anyone be junkies or alcoholics....no more than it means I would have rather spent 5 years in prison. Nor does it extend to the people themselves. I harbor no bad feelings or resentments against anyone there. Art and staff were much like good-intentioned but authoritarian parents with lots of blind-spots themselves trying to do what they thought was best for their kids. As a father, I have made enough of those sorts of mistakes over the years to forgive them in others. Take care.

Anonymous:

--- Quote ---
  "In no way do I minimize the experiences of others that were FORCED in for smoking a couple of joints, or having a couple of beers or taking a couple of trips.  That's obscene!
Robin"

--- End quote ---



Finally, finally, thankyoujesus, YOU get it.  Everyone here knows it saved your life - we have known that since day one. What has been missing and has been the basis of most of the posts in opposition to The Seed tactics was any proof of any supporter's understanding that this REALLY DID OCCUR.  FINALLY.  Thank God.

Antigen:

--- Quote ---On 2005-08-27 00:06:00, marshall wrote:


It's sort of like encountering the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount via being forced into Jim Jones' People's Temple or hearing the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism via being forced into Aum Shinriko.  The fact that these teachings were presented by an organization that attempted to implant them by forceful, will-breaking, thought-reform and conditioning & controlled by a guy with a messianic complex does not negate their truth or usefulness. John U. said he  broke with the Seed because he felt his ultimate loyalty lay with the Seed itself rather than Art. My rejection / criticism of the Seed was / is  because I felt that my ultimate loyalty lay with the teachings themselves ( those that I chose to embrace) rather than either Art or an organization.

--- End quote ---


Exactly that! I started attending open meetings around the time I started kindergarten. Plenty of good ideas spoken and/or painted on the walls. I learned a lot of Seed dogma very early. But I never really saw any of that demonstrated.

Do the right things and the right things will happen. And so I did; I worked hard at school and odd jobs, ate right, got plenty of excercise and, lo and behold, I had good prospects for either work or continuing education and honest to god respect from good people. Oh, and a hot bod. But not from my mom or other Seedlings. Only from my dad, neighbors, teachers and some of the most decent, compassionate kids in school. In Seed Land, it was all about the smoking gun. I could have been a total self serving bitch, so long as I never tasted alcohol or pot or got caught flirting and, of course, if I took care to direct my hostility to "druggies" they would have been A-OK with that.

The serenity prayer. Very useful little aphorism, that! Again, never saw it practiced at all. The Seed was all about mucking around trying to change things they had no business messing with, neglecting those things we all should attend to and being entirely sanctimonious and clueless about the difference.

Honesty, the first and most impotent rule. I started saying that (in my head, NEVER out loud!) as soon as I ran accross the definition of impotence. Oh, the irony! When my mom got hooked on Seed, all of our friends quit coming around and all of my siblings left home or the state and the earliest practical opportunity. It was easier to keep up the pretense w/ a little distance, ya' know?

The really funny thing is that all that good dogma that I learned at the Seed (cause that's where I'd been planted) I did see demonstrated elsewhere. And it made a huge impression on me; favorable to the dogma, extremely hostile to the hypocrites who talked it but could never walk it.

Oh, and you never "blab", Marshall. I don't think I've ever come away from reading one of your posts thinking "well, that was a waste."
Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
--- End quote ---


_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

ChrisL:
..."Finally, finally, thankyoujesus, YOU get it. Everyone here knows it saved your life - we have known that since day one. What has been missing and has been the basis of most of the posts in opposition to The Seed tactics was any proof of any supporter's understanding that this REALLY DID OCCUR. FINALLY. Thank God."...

I have never denied that I was forced into the Seed, that was always a given for me. But, I was 16 and doing drugs on a daily basis, I would have never willlingly signed myself into the program. That also is a reality. I am, however, very thankful that someone DID force me in, I believe it saved my life. My folks aren't around anymore, so I will thank You Guys... Thanks!
Chris

GregFL:
Marshall, you and I think almost exactly alike on this entire topic.

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