Concern for a "student"

[Nihilanthic]

So, you say she cant speak for herself, and youre going to discredit what she went through because you still want to play victim and have a pity party and celebrate how 'strong' you are?

It is one of the most beautiful compensations of life, that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Anonymous]

Not everyone here feels like NIHI.  Some of us are like you, but from previous experiences have learned not to open up here.  I too have a child that had a successful time in a program and know of several people who have as well.  Don't let those here diminish or make you question what you know

[Anonymous]

Nihil is a moron. He is a 20 year old who never grew up emotionally and he gets his kicks by slamming parents on a messge board.  He is probably an unpopular, unattractive loser who can only be cool while he is in front of a keyboard.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-12 13:51:00, Truth Searcher wrote:

Afraid that I have a bit of a differing opinion.  Her experience is hers ~ that is true.  But, it was not hers alone.



When she was hurting, I was there holding her hand and drying her tears.  When she was stoned into unconsciousness, I was the one who rode in the ambulance.  I was the one who cleaned up the vomit from one too many beers.



Her CHOICES were and still are hers alone.  But, when your a mom, you suffer the consequences right along with them.  



That's what family does.  Rejoices with you.  And sometimes suffers with you.



Perhaps I misspoke myself when I said I may share her experiences (as in telling you all her story).  I could only share the experience of parenting her.  But, make no mistake, I "shared" her experiences and by remaining a part of her life, I always will."

except for the experience she had when she was sent away, you were NOT there to share that, and everything you know of that happened, you've only heard second-hand.  I was abused at Provo Canyon School, and I've never told my father.  He's not the kinda man you can approach like that, he's ill and close to death, so I've just never told him.   I'm sure he still thinks it was a great decision, and I don't have the heart to bring it up.   :cry:

[Truth Searcher]

Three Springs~
I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said!  I know there are many things that she experienced that I am totally unaware of.  I hope that she finds me approachable enough to share some of those things in time.  Actually she has already opened the door a crack.

I can only hope that this dreadful chapter in her life is behind her... behind us all.  I want nothing for her except to be a happy well adjusted young woman who can move forward.... in whatever capacity she finds her fulfillment.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-12 15:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Nihil is a moron. He is a 20 year old who never grew up emotionally and he gets his kicks by slamming parents on a messge board.  He is probably an unpopular, unattractive loser who can only be cool while he is in front of a keyboard."

What are you now, an armchair therapist?

At least Niles cares about children and seeks to alleviate the horror to which people just like you subject them.

You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing,"  but you sit here and bash just the same.

If you don't like Niles, fine.  Don't engage him then.

That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.  

Is this why you're upset with Niles?  Because he's only twenty and you don't have the cognitive horsepower to deal with him?  Pretty petty...

Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one.  Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.

Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-12 15:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

Don't let those here diminish or make you question what you know"

Yeah, be careful! People around here have super psychic special powers. We'll cast a spell that makes you think good programs are bad. Better keep the name of the place a secret, cause we need that like a voo doo master needs a lock of hair to work the magic.  :roll:

Or, more likely, ppl around here might know a little more about some of these programs than you do. Some of them may even have spent time as clients or staff there. Ya' just never know until you ask.

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.  
-- Hunter S. Thompson

[Anonymous]

Ya know folks, parents make mistakes - you all talk about changing things, wanting to make a difference so other kids don't end up in horrific places, by bashing parents, ganging up on them, not allowing them to justify their feelings of sadness, fear, etc. is not going to accomplish your mission it gives you all less verasity and eventually it will be the few of you on this board, and no one will pay attention at all.  If that is what your goal is then keep on doing it.  

Grow up folks!  Listen in my work whether I agree with a parent or not for their choices it not my place to say even when asked, I inform them of alternatives, what is out there, how to get accurate information, and make the best choices, we cannot tell parents what is best for their children or they are wrong.  

These people turn to Ed Consultants of which I am researching - credentials are very scary - one I spoke to has an MBA?  What does this have to do with Children/Adolescents, Education, Mental Health, DD, or Substance Abuse Issues?  I am very concerned that their are more of these out there, with no actual knowledge other than how to get on a plane, get fed a good meal, brought on a PR tour, help parents apply for loans when needed, and have a rolodex of transports.  These are the people that you need to focus your efforts on as well as the bad programs, until that happens and they are stopped, the parents will continue to send their children.  For whatever reason when they turn to others for help they are feeling desperate it is not for you or me to dispute their feelings or to say they are not justified, if you want to play a role and make a difference then find a way to do it where people will pay attention and not think you are all nuts - I am not convinced that you are nuts - I feel you are passionate and committed to this cause, but need a more unified and convincing way to be taken seriously.
Be mad at me if you wish - this is my opinion and I know this from experience myself.
Andrea

[Anonymous]

One more point - I in no way intened my previous post to be offensive just have been around for a while and see how people are often turned off.  Ginger fights with me all the time and doesn't realize she is preaching to the chior (or tries to argue rather), it is important to show that you have some clout and knowledge in what you are doing, and this does not come by ganging up on people but to answer their questions in an understanding way and insert your knowledge in the answer.
Andrea

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-08-12 04:47:00, Truth Searcher wrote:

"OK.... well we really got off track.



I came looking for advise, from people who have some insider understanding of less than reputable programs.  I have suspicious about the tactics used at New Horizons Youth Camp in Rexford Montana.  I have utilized the advise offered here.  I turned up nothing.



How we ended up on Paul Cummings and MY daughters program I haven't a clue.



And perhaps in time I will chose to disclose my daughters experience.  But for the time being I choose not to.  Imagine yourselves on a home-schooling forum, with parents who abhor the thoughts of a public education.  And imagine being asked to disclose the name of the public school where they attend.  And in your limited experience (with this said forum)you feel that the public school is going to be torn to shreds and your position/decision as a parent is going to be hung out to dry.  So that is my position..... and I stand by it.



Thanks for listening."

I give you a lot of credit. At least you are here doing the research, reading and debating.

[Antigen]

Andrea, how, exactly, do you go about getting information about a program if its name is a secret?

As I've said before, you're not the first and probably won't be the last to try and regulate this problem away. It's never worked. They just whittle away at the well intended stipulations, pretend to comply, change their language and the beat goes on. When the State of Florida tried to reel in Straight, Inc. by holding them to the standards for foster homes, they simply came into the group room and informed us all that, henceforth, we would be sleeping in "host homes". In Utah, they've responded to TBS regulations by insisting that they're all just plain old boarding schools. It's like a manic, never ending game of monkey in the middle.

And I've been hearing for years now about how non-credible and ineffective these forums are and how I should do something to control users. But the traffic just keeps on coming and so do the threats and ligigation. Evidently, it's having some effect.

So long as there is a demand for thought reform services, the market will rise to meet it. But nobody knowingly, intentionally pays someone to brainwash themselves and/or thier children. Every last customer has to be tricked into it. That's how tought reform works. The only way I know of to bust up a cult is to let the current members in on the scam. Nobody enjoys being told they're being played. Especially when they've got such  lofty ideals about it.

The truth hurts sometimes. But it's the only way I know to defeat a con artist.

Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813912652/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> James Madison

[Truth Searcher]

On 2005-08-13 05:26:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:


You're very fond of saying you won't discuss the particulars of your child's placement because it "leads to bashing,"  but you sit here and bash just the same.

If you don't like Niles, fine.  Don't engage him then.

That being said, you are still just acting like a child, using ad hominem attacks and attempting to "character assassinate" someone who you don't even know, simply because you are at an utter loss to refute his arguments.  

Try acting like an adult for a change and EXPLAIN exactly WHY "your program" is a good one.  Name the program, explain how your child was diagnosed and with what disorder and tell us how the treatment plan that your program drafted addressed your child's psychological and social maladaption.

Please, we're all eager to hear about a good program so that we may point struggling parents to a place that won't actually abuse and neglect their child."

DysJunc~
It appears to me that you are confusing me with ANON (Andrea).  I did not engage Nihl.  I did not bash him.  In fact, I never even responded to him. I refuse to respond to judgmental name calling.  I am not at an "utter loss" to refute his arguments.  It would be a waste of my breath.  

Insofar as you think me acting childish.... well I just plain don't get that.  Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

As I explained earlier, I am not willing to disclose the program my daughter attended.  Would be like a lamb being led to slaughter.  No thanks.

I was told that I had no business telling my daughters story.  That it was her story alone to tell.

So, the bottom line is this.  If you truly want to affect change, you are going about it ass-back wards IMHO.  Instead of attacking people who are really trying to understand the ugly side of this institution, I suggest you be a little less hostile and a little more approachable.

If I was a less gritty person, for sure I would have high tailed it out of here after my first reading.  But, I really, really want to hear your stories, suggestions, and ideas to better regulate this industry.

You know the old adage.... you attract more flies with sugar.

Try to imagine for one minute that I am a parent who deeply cares about kids (mine and others who are very troubled).  That I am a parent who made a responsible placement for my cherished child.  Imagine for a minute that she was not abused, and is not scarred from her experience.  Imagine that it may have addressed/alleviated some very serious emotional, psychological, and social issues in her life.  Imagine that there are caring individuals (professionals) who really desire to help kids and are not motivated by financial recompense.  And then maybe, we can have a dialog and learn from one another.

[Antigen]

On 2005-08-13 06:42:00, Anonymous wrote:

Ginger fights with me all the time and doesn't realize she is preaching to the chior (or tries to argue rather),

Andrea"

You keep saying that. And I keep reminding you that I do have a pretty good idea what you're about. I've seen it before. All good intentions aside, I expect you'll get the same result that everyone else who has done what you're doing has gotten. You'll work yourself ragged to get some regulation in place. Then the lobbyists will have their crack at it. Then, the day you turn your hand to some other labour, all your work will be quietly discarded like last year's campaign promises.

Now, I'm all for getting info out on New Horizons. But not if it's only going to be used as a recruiting tool for some other thought reform program.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"

[Anonymous]

You've created more commotion by not naming the program, because people are naturally curious, than if you had named the program and acted like it was no big deal.  See you've dug yourself in so deep, you can't really cave and just say the name of the damn program, but you're wishing you had never admitted you sent your daughter to a program in the first place.  

It's just very suspicious when you say Imagine it may have done good, no abuse, no problem, etc, and you're all for it, but then you're afraid to name it.  What is so bad about the name of the program, that's what I want to know?

[Truth Searcher]

On 2005-08-13 07:35:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"Actually Truthspeaker you will attract more flies with horseshit.

OK... ya got me there and gave me a laugh in the process.   :rofl: