Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Against My Better Judgement
John Underwood:
Toooooooooooooooooo much. Reading the responses, not just to the post I made, but in most, I do find a consistent, persistent theme, ...a commonality, ...your bond. Me, me, me, me, me, ...I, I, I, I, I , ...I was subjected to..., this happened to me..., ad nauseam.
Though for each of you, The Seed was a personal experience, here?s a newsflash, you weren?t the only ones there.
Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?
Or do you just lack the capacity see the positive and the good because in your minds it somehow infringed on you?, (i.e., mommy and daddy didn?t let me have things my way) Too bad, grow up.
Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!
As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School. The Seed was like a Hawaiian vacation after that. If you think Art or Lybbi were tyrannical, adept at the practice of badgering or intimidation, I only wish you would have known Sister Cecilia. One particularly nasty scar that resulted from her handywork remains prominent on my right hand to this day. Does this mean I should advocate the closing of parochial schools? Does this mean the experience had no positive value? Does this mean I should harbor resentment? Does this mean I should start a web site designed to advocate elementary student rights?
We don?t live in a perfect world or society, nor do we evolve beyond the condition human. Deny it if you like, but every negative post I?ve read here is either based in the expectation of perfection, (yet disguised in intellectualism, supported by ambiguous philosophy and ideology), the product of those unfortunates who still seek pleasure from disparaging others, or those who have become addicted to mental masturbation.
Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
Bitterness, resentment, anger, hostility, self-pity, et al are not independent entities that possess you. These are choices you make. It?s what you did with the feelings, after the fact, that has created the negativity you experience today, and for that, you and no one but you is responsible.
This isn?t unique, your not unique.
Pseudo-intellectualism, victim mentalities, advocates of rights without responsibilities, the myopic pursuit of pettiness disguised as righteousness, and, as stated, me, me, me, me, me, are formidable cancers that are eroding our country, our world today.
For many here, truth seems to be an abstract concept. For others, their regard and esteem for the truth seems to be directly correlated to how much and how well they can use it as a weapon.
I leave with little doubt that responses to this post will make this point more effectively than anything I could possibly say.
P.S. ...and lawyers liars,...geez, ...whodda ever thunka dat?
Antigen:
--- Quote ---Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?
--- End quote ---
I can only speak from my own experience. You, evidently, never noticed the harm you and your grand ideal did to so many families.
Yes, actually, I was rather an angelic kid to begin with. My parents put all three of my brothers and one sister in The Seed because they believed your lies. The shit that went down afterward in Straight was also a direct response to you projecting your junkiedome onto us kids who may (or may not, in many cases) have smoked a little pot.
You (Seed staff, of which you were nearly the top dog) advised my mother to kick my brother and my father out of the house and family. Why? Because they were not supportive of the program. Do you think that was good advise? Do you think follwing that advise was without unintended consequences? Or, worse, was it your intention to break up my family?
I know there are plenty of other families similarly affected by your lies. We hear from them quite often around here. I won't speak for the, though. They can speak for themselves.
Antigen:
P.S. At which Hawaiian resort do they put a toilet seat around your neck and then direct the other guests to publicly humilate you?
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
--- End quote ---
GregFL:
Thanks for your response.
As for me..here is how I see it
The Seed experience was individual. IE: It was about Me and my family and the circle of people that I have kept in touch with and now the people I have reconnected with here. It wasn't about you, some other Junkie who feels he was "saved", not about how the softshoeing little arrogant fool ended up or how many houses Libby bought and sold over the years. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities. To bury your head and proclaim "all is well because this or that junkie now leads a productive life" Diminishes the truth about what happened to people that were harmed there (mostly little children).
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Quote: Did your parents bring you to the program for your angelic, exemplary behavior?
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No, they did it because they were convinced by a cultish group of mislead St. Pete parents and the mood of the times that a little truancy and pot smoking would result in "death, insanity, or Jail". An erroneous conclusion if ever there was one.
This comment made by you, this attempt at shifting the blame of the abuse onto the abused, is more telling of your selfish self-centered view of the realities of what occured. Do you deny the techniques used? Do you even understand them? At this point I have my doubts. You have the intelligence and knowledge to take a real hard look here john, but instead up till now you have buried YOUR head in the sand and proclaim it was all an innocent attempt to get kids straight. The techniques used at the seed were oppressive and dangerous and hurt children.
Your posts indicate you are naive about this my friend. You sould make an attempt to really understand those that carried problems from being inprisoned and "fixed" by the seed and go a step further and explore why and what harmed them. We all weren't jailed junkies in need of severe incarceration, behavior modification and alienation from our families and peer groups....just because you may have been. Hell, I was a pre-pubescent little kid, removed from my family and forced into very inappropriate situations, many of which were directed and overseen by you personally.
For this I harbor zero bad feelings toward you, but Telling 50 year old people here to grow up when they have been gracis enough to come here and tell their story is insensitive and a thought stopping exercise on your behalf.
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Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!
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The stories are here John. There are pro seed people that post here all the time. There are acknowledgements from the most ardent anti seed people that certain people benefited from being there. THAT DOES NOT NEGATE WHAT THE SEED WAS OR WHAT HAPPENED. Jeeus, please explain why YOU feel the need to INSULT everyone who posts here and why you are so sure that the "peer therapy" as practiced by the seed did more good than harm? I suggest to you that 15 year old fucked up kids "counseling" other kids being held against their will is a recipe for disaster, that telling children when they Think that they are "into their head" is orwellian, and that holding the love and companionship of their family over their head until they "change" is downright cruel.
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As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School.
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That is such a weak diversionary tactic, your attempt to belittle those that suffered at the hands of the seed, lost family, were incarcerated and lied to, by comparing it to your grammer school teacher. You should be ashamed. I may point out that had I entered the seed at 22, none of those tactics you and others "helped" me when I was 14 would have worked. NONE. I wouldn't have been intimidated and I would have gladly got up and walked out the door, with not one of you being physically able to stop me. But All this intimidating, threatening, locking people up and throwing them to the floor when they tried to leave and so forth on 12 to 14 year olds? Threatening of jail and court orders for non complaince? Watching little kids shit until they earn the right to shit alone? Refusing to allow anyone a phone call or to even look at a billboard on the road? Who the fuck gave you the authority and omniscience to decide what goes on in someone else's head or what this person reads or thinks? Surely you cannot be proud of that now John? Please tell me you have come to terms with this aspect of the program.
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Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
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Who specifically are you speaking of? Please don't feel sorry for anyone here. No one is asking for it, needs it, or even desires it. Most everyone here is living the dream as far as I can tell...good jobs and good people to my best estimation.
chanting the death insane or injail mantra after all these years?
Com'n!!!! That shit is just silly John. You don't have a crystal ball nor either do I. You cannot justify the abuses endured by little children by saying you and others "saved lives". Many a seed graduate now sits in jail, has killed themselves, or is currently strung out on dope. If the seed experience Defines your future as you seem to indicate, then be intellectually honest and Indict the seed for what those people have become. Otherwise this is pure fantasy...and you are smart enough to know that.
Why don't you try something here John. Instead of posting not to well diquised "come downs" on the people here, why don't you just try to answer some questions, deny or admit the allegation against you by Fuelaw, and otherwise participate without trying to set yourself apart from us. You may have built a story about your heroic service in the Seed, but I don't think most people see it that way.
No mind John, I respect you immensely today but none of it is based on your "service" back in 73/74 but instead based on your willingness to come here and discuss. That to me means everything and I hope you understand my disagreements do not negate the respect you have earned by coming here and participating in the forum.
FueLaw:
Greg he doesn't deny allegations because he knows they are true. I brought up the three year old post the other day to prove a point. The point being that I made the allegations in response to a question posed by you when I first posted on this site. More importantly another person, who was there at the time, confirmed the incident nearly thirty years after it occurred.
Furthermore, as you know Greg, when I allowed by name ect.. to be used by the reporter who was working on a free lance story to confront Robert Chun with the allegations he conceded that kids were sometimes beaten in the Seed and they he may have administered the beatings. I am certainly don't lay claim to being the only one , I am one of many.
I note, with interest, that rather than deny my allegations he dismissed them as lawyers are liars. If I am a liar it is not because I am lawyer. It appears to be than Mr. Underwood is simply trying to rationalize or minimize his own behavior and role in the Seed. He also seems to think he is still the rap leader by controling the conversation and going on these rants and raves about Catholic schools ec...
As far as the me, me me or I, I, I commnet , let me just say this surving ther Seed or one of it's spin offs was purely a personal experience. Each one of us have dealt with it differently. But when we post about it we can only relate our own experiences not everyone elses. The original reason I posted on this site, and read others post, was just to confirm to others what I has went through and to see what others went through and how they dealt with it over time.
By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
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