Author Topic: Against My Better Judgement  (Read 20030 times)

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Offline John Underwood

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Against My Better Judgement
« on: August 10, 2005, 02:52:00 PM »
Toooooooooooooooooo much. Reading the responses, not just to the post I made, but in most, I do find a consistent, persistent theme, ...a commonality, ...your bond. Me, me, me, me, me, ...I, I, I, I, I , ...I was subjected to..., this happened to me..., ad nauseam.
Though for each of you, The Seed was a personal experience, here?s a newsflash, you weren?t the only ones there.

Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?
Or do you just lack the capacity see the positive and the good because in your minds it somehow infringed on you?, (i.e., mommy and daddy didn?t let me have things my way) Too bad, grow up.

Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!

As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School. The Seed was like a Hawaiian vacation after that. If you think Art or Lybbi were tyrannical, adept at the practice of badgering or intimidation, I only wish you would have known Sister Cecilia. One particularly nasty scar that resulted from her handywork remains prominent on my right hand to this day. Does this mean I should advocate the closing of parochial schools? Does this mean the experience had no positive value? Does this mean I should harbor resentment? Does this mean I should start a web site designed to advocate elementary student rights?                  

We don?t live in a perfect world or society, nor do we evolve beyond the condition human. Deny it if you like, but every negative post I?ve read here is either based in the expectation of perfection, (yet disguised in intellectualism, supported by ambiguous philosophy and ideology),  the product of those unfortunates who still seek pleasure from disparaging others, or those who have become addicted to mental masturbation.

Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
Bitterness, resentment, anger, hostility, self-pity, et al are not independent entities that possess you. These are choices you make. It?s what you did with the feelings, after the fact, that has created the negativity you experience today, and for that, you and no one but you is responsible.

This isn?t unique, your not unique.
Pseudo-intellectualism, victim mentalities, advocates of rights without responsibilities, the myopic pursuit of pettiness disguised as righteousness, and, as stated, me, me, me, me, me, are formidable cancers that are eroding our country, our world today.

For many here, truth seems to be an abstract concept. For others, their regard and esteem for the truth seems to be directly correlated to how much and how well they can use it as a weapon.
I leave with little doubt that responses to this post will make this point more effectively than anything I could possibly say.

P.S. ...and lawyers liars,...geez, ...whodda ever thunka dat?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2005, 04:01:00 PM »
Quote
Why so much attention to self? Where you unaware of the presence of others? Where you (are you) so totally self-absorbed that empathy, compassion for those who were grateful and were being helped is of little or no significance to you?
Did your parents bring you to the program because of your angelic, exemplary behavior?


I can only speak from my own experience. You, evidently, never noticed the harm you and your grand ideal did to so many families.

Yes, actually, I was rather an angelic kid to begin with. My parents put all three of my brothers and one sister in The Seed because they believed your lies. The shit that went down afterward in Straight was also a direct response to you projecting your junkiedome onto us kids who may (or may not, in many cases) have smoked a little pot.

You (Seed staff, of which you were nearly the top dog) advised my mother to kick my brother and my father out of the house and family. Why? Because they were not supportive of the program. Do you think that was good advise? Do you think follwing that advise was without unintended consequences? Or, worse, was it your intention to break up my family?

I know there are plenty of other families similarly affected by your lies. We hear from them quite often around here. I won't speak for the, though. They can speak for themselves.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Antigen

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2005, 04:03:00 PM »
P.S. At which Hawaiian resort do they put a toilet seat around your neck and then direct the other guests to publicly humilate you?

When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2005, 04:18:00 PM »
Thanks for your response.


As for me..here is how I see it

The Seed experience was individual. IE:   It was about Me and my family and the circle of people that I have kept in touch with and now the people I have reconnected with  here. It wasn't about you,  some other Junkie who feels he was "saved", not about how the softshoeing little arrogant fool ended up or how many houses Libby bought and sold over the years. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities. To bury your head and proclaim "all is well because this or that junkie now leads a productive life" Diminishes the truth about what happened to people that were harmed there (mostly little children).  

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Quote:  Did your parents bring you to the program for your angelic, exemplary behavior?
--------

No, they did it because they were convinced by a cultish group of mislead St. Pete parents and the mood of the times that a little truancy and pot smoking would result in "death, insanity, or Jail". An erroneous conclusion if ever there was one.

This comment made by you, this attempt at shifting the blame of the abuse onto the abused, is more telling of your selfish self-centered view of the realities of what occured. Do you deny the techniques used? Do you even understand them? At this point I have my doubts. You have the intelligence and knowledge to take a real hard look here john, but instead up till now you have buried YOUR head in the sand and proclaim it was all an innocent attempt to get kids straight. The techniques used at the seed were oppressive and dangerous and hurt children.


Your posts indicate you are naive about this  my friend. You sould make an attempt to really understand those that carried problems from being inprisoned and "fixed" by the seed and go a step further and explore why and what harmed them.   We all weren't jailed junkies in need of severe incarceration, behavior modification and alienation from our families and peer groups....just because you may have been. Hell, I was a pre-pubescent little kid, removed from my family and forced into very inappropriate situations, many of which were directed and overseen by you personally.

For this I harbor zero bad feelings toward you, but  Telling 50 year old people here to grow up when they have been gracis enough to come here and tell their story is insensitive and a thought stopping exercise on your behalf.


--------------

Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere in your posts have I been able to find references to, ...oh, yeah, I remember this person was so messed up and I was able to help him/her by..., ...wasn?t it great when this person asked me for help and I was able to..., etc. You get the point. NOWHERE!
If this doesn?t tell you something about yourselves or if your first urge is to rebut rather than reflect, then yes, I repeat, you did not get it!
-------------------

The stories are here John. There are pro seed people that post here all the time. There are acknowledgements from the most ardent anti seed people that certain people benefited from being there. THAT DOES NOT NEGATE WHAT THE SEED WAS OR WHAT HAPPENED. Jeeus, please explain why YOU feel the need to INSULT everyone who posts here and why you are so sure that the "peer therapy" as practiced by the seed did more good than harm? I suggest to you that 15 year old fucked up kids "counseling" other kids being held against their will is a recipe for disaster, that telling children when they Think that they are "into their head" is orwellian, and that holding the love and companionship of their family over their head until they "change" is downright cruel.  

------------------
As for the insinuations of the horrors (lol) Stalinist techniques, mind control, deprivation, and humilation, I can only tell you that I spent the first 8 years of academic life at Our Lady of Lourdes Grammar School.
--------------

That is such a weak diversionary tactic, your attempt to belittle those that suffered at the hands of the seed, lost family, were incarcerated and lied to, by comparing it to your grammer school teacher. You should be ashamed.  I may point out that had I entered the seed at 22, none of those tactics you and others "helped" me  when I was 14 would have worked. NONE. I wouldn't have been intimidated and I would have gladly got up and walked out the door, with not one of you being physically able to stop me. But All this intimidating, threatening, locking people up and throwing them to the floor when they tried to leave and so forth on 12 to 14 year olds? Threatening of jail and court orders for non complaince? Watching little kids shit until they earn the right to shit alone?  Refusing to allow anyone a phone call or to even look at a billboard on the road?  Who the fuck gave you the authority and omniscience to decide what goes on in someone else's head or what this person reads or thinks? Surely you cannot be proud of that now John? Please tell me you have come to terms with this aspect of the program.


---------------------
Though I do feel for some of you, individually, this in no way negates or diminishes the joy I still feel for those went on to lead happy and rewarding lives, rather than death or incarceration, because of The Seed. If some you experienced suffering in your teenage years, who doesn?t?
--------------------------
 Who specifically are you speaking of? Please don't feel sorry for anyone here. No one is asking for it, needs it, or even desires it.  Most everyone here is living the dream as far as I can tell...good jobs and good people to my best estimation.

chanting the death insane or injail mantra after all these years?

Com'n!!!! That shit is just silly John. You don't have a crystal ball nor either do I.  You cannot justify the abuses endured by little children by saying you and others "saved lives".  Many a seed graduate now sits in jail, has killed themselves, or is currently strung out on dope.  If the seed experience Defines your future as you seem to indicate, then be intellectually honest and Indict the seed for what those people have become. Otherwise this is pure fantasy...and you are smart enough to know that.


Why don't you try something here John. Instead of posting not to well diquised "come downs" on the people here, why don't you just try to answer some questions, deny or admit the allegation against you by Fuelaw, and otherwise participate without trying to set yourself apart from us.  You may have built a story about your heroic service in the Seed, but I don't think most people see it that way.

No mind John, I respect you immensely today but none of it is based on your "service" back in 73/74 but instead based on your willingness to come here and discuss. That to me means everything and I hope you understand my disagreements do not negate the respect you have earned by coming here and participating in the forum.
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Offline FueLaw

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2005, 06:28:00 PM »
Greg he doesn't deny allegations because he knows they are true. I brought up the three year old post the other day to prove a point. The point being that I made the allegations in response to a question posed by you when I first posted on this site. More importantly another person, who was there at the time, confirmed the incident nearly thirty years after it occurred.

Furthermore, as you know Greg, when I allowed by name ect.. to be used by the reporter who was working on a free lance story to confront Robert Chun with the allegations he conceded that kids were sometimes beaten in the Seed and they he may have administered the beatings. I am certainly don't lay claim to being the only one , I am one of many.

I note, with interest, that rather than deny my allegations he dismissed them as lawyers are liars. If I am a liar it is not because I am lawyer. It appears to be than Mr. Underwood is simply trying to rationalize or minimize his own behavior and role in the Seed. He also seems to think he is still the rap leader by controling the conversation and going on these rants and raves about Catholic schools ec...

As far as the me, me me or I, I, I commnet , let me just say this surving ther Seed or one of it's spin offs was purely a personal experience. Each one of us have dealt with it differently. But when we post about it we can only relate our own experiences not everyone elses. The original reason I posted on this site, and read others post, was just to confirm to others what I has went through and to see what others went through and how they dealt with it over time.
 
By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2005, 06:50:00 PM »
I do find a consistent, persistent theme, ...a commonality, ...your bond. Me, me, me, me, me, ...I, I, I, I, I , ...I was subjected to..., this happened to me..., ad nauseam.

One of the things I learned very early on in the Seed was Talk about Yourself, you, you, (ie,me) (me)(me) I don't find it unusual at all that in my postings I would only talk about my experiences & my frame of reference, it is after all the only thing that I really can speak about with any certainty isn't it? I actually would find it rather odd if people posted about others? Wouldn't most?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2005, 06:56:00 PM »
of course unless you were just struggling to find fault with a website that is at odds with the lies you have been telling yourself for the last 33 years.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2005, 09:59:00 AM »
I was envolved with the Seed for over 30 yrs. I never once saw anyone beaten or hit.  I guess anything is possible but I never saw it.  In fact if anyone ever slightly hinted violence it was quickly stopped. I myself have been known to have a quick temper but I've also been told I'm a kind and gentle person.  Actually remembering back now I did hit a close friend once.  He was working on his car had greese all over his hands.  We were the best of friends, but he Fu--ed with me trying to put greese on my face.  I told him I woud hit him if he did it.  He did and I hit him. I remember a couple tears rolled down his face. I told him what did you expect me to do?  We were still friends for years after. We workrd it out. We were in our early twenties.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 10:14:00 AM »
I don't think there ever was a culture of beating kids at the seed.

I do think, and did observe, staff getting very angry at misbehaviors and then things getting out of control. I remember escapees being sent home with bigger kids, stood up and dared to try to run...this was implied violence. (I also remember them running from the big guys after the threat  :grin: )

I did observe,and even shamfully participate in, kids getting roughed up that tried to escape the St Pete Seed.

I have knowledge of the staff in St Pete threatening the group with, and then following thru with the threat to bring the parents of misbehaviors into the back rooms and hit their kids at the direction of the staff. The sound did waver into the group and a song was ordered to cover it up...I was there and it later made the press...regardless of any denials by former staff. A girl did come back to the group with a black eye after an encounter in the back room with the staff and her parents. These incidents were TERRIFYING when I was 14. I also remember this practice ending pretty quickly after it began. Whos grand idea was this? Why did it stop so suddenly? Did Art have knowledge of it? IF so, did he order it stopped?  

These are realities.  Whether you or anyone else remember or even know about this stuff it did occur.

There are other first hand reports about things getting out of control at oldcomers houses even bordering on the perverse (big frank getting his bare ass spanked for "acting like a baby" at 13 by an older boy).

There are stories about misbehaviors being locked in the back rooms a la isolation room "therapy".  

There is an account of a girl, kidnapped from school by rabid seed parents, thrown in a car and injured..this was witnessed by students and teachers at the school and the mother stated in the press these parents volunteered and claimed her daughter would be "dead insane or in jail" if they didn't comply. She pulled her and Art issued a statement that the seed doesn't condone such activities. IF that happened in this day and age, that parents responsible would have gone to prison.

All kinds of things happened at the seed and rarely were they spoke of.
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 11:06:00 AM »
John,

Against your better judgement! Indeed, I am surprised to see you posting again here. I didn't think it would happen. I am very glad to see it. Your original post opened a small flood of responses, from all different angles. And as far as I am concerned, that is a good thing.

My response to you would be: yes, the Seed held some positive elements for me. No doubt. I really tried to love the people I was with and be the best person I could be. I learned from that. Some of my high school friends did die, go insane, and end up in jail. Some of them went on to have great jobs, families, etc. The Seed pulled me out of my life, gave me an alternative, and set me on a different path. In some ways, it may have been better than the path I was on; in other ways, it was a very narrow path and I did not have the freedom to venture from it at all.  

I came out of a very disfunctional family - my family had problems with depression, alcohol, anger. My parents had divorced, a family friend had been murdered. I was looking for support and an alternative, and checked myself into the seed voluntarily, following my brother who went in with a bit more coercion. When I left the Seed, I had to face all of the issues that leaving my family had left unresolved. I was an extemely loyal 'Seedling' for almost a decade. I left with nothing - no friends followed or enquired about me, I had no career, no education - I had some twisted ideas of what it meant to be a good person (everyone is a druggie!) along with some history of making close friends - with guys only of course. Reintegrating with society and family, enrolling in school, getting a job, a girlfriend, etc. was all very exciting and scary too. I also had my family and personal demons to work on - anxiety, phobias, depression, obsession, the temptation of substance use/abuse - the Seed had really not equipped me to deal with these things, beyond exorting myself to 'get out of my head.' I needed some things that the Seed had never supplied, and had even denied me. I had to find to set my own moral compass.

As far as helping other people - hey, I had newcomers. I tried to help them, given what I knew from my seed training. Did I? Did it do good? Perhaps one will post here at some point and I will know. I do know that now, as a socially, politically, intellectually engaged person, I try to do well - I volunteer, I work for a progressive non-profit, I have a wife and a child, we recycle! etc. I try to live a good life. The seed experience was a part of that, but I have a very different direction from what 'Seed straight' was.

When I look at our society - drug addiction, misery, and crime - I know that we are lacking something. Families are still sending their kids to AA or Seed-type programs. Personally, I hope my daughter never needs to leave her family to get what she needs. I suppose there are worse things that could happen to a person than being locked (mentally) in a warehouse for 10 hours a day and bing told they are weak and worthless (for instance, Catholic School! - and aren't there recovery groups from that authoritarian society too?)

John, you seem to think that we are all pussies who can't take reality. I guess we are all still worthless and weak, and selfish too, if that's what questioning our seed experience makes us. I don't buy it. Life is complex and full of shades of gray that Art and the Seed didn't allow us to explore.

Perhaps Art's experience of war set the tone - don't question the command structure, loyalty above all, obedience...no fooling around! Get out of your head! Sit up! And I am sure that is necessary during combat. Is it necessary during life?
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ally Gator

Offline Stripe

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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2005, 05:23:00 PM »
John U:

Fuelaw said -By the way John Underwood is a disgraceful human being !

I completely concur.  You are sloppy in your communication skills and you leave little to be desired in the way of inter-personal relation skills with those you deem below you.  A good man can find common ground with the lowly and the kings.

As for the lawyer/liar reference - it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH  Please, if you are going to insult a profession, any profession and especially MY profession, at least take a little time to find out what it's really about.  But you would have to go beyond your sheep fence to do that and that's just not going to happen anytime soon, is it?  

As for the Me me me, III- what the fuck was the seed about anyway but me me me and IIII? You sure do have a selective memory, pal.  The entire program was premised on making us think about our own needs first.  I call bullshit on you for that.  You were a purveyor of mememe III - We were told that we could never get or claim understanding of the teachings at the seed  until we first loved ourselves.  

What now?  Do you see that the  incorrigibe "stupid" monsters you helped create in the 70's have grown up and come back to hold you accountable?  

No "come down" you ever did was ever predicated on helping someone - you yourself admitted that your diatribes were based on YOUR judgment of the "stupid" person who, by YOUR standards, didn't get "it."  It was always ABOUT YOU - attention on you - putting fear in the hearts of children and teenagers so they would do and think as YOU wanted them to.  YOU were and still are the seed.  I call bullshit on you, again,  John Underwood.  

What a real man you are now...insulting people because you just can't admit that MAYBE you might have been wrong.  Guess what pal, the "stupid" ones you continiue to demean on this forum can see right through your lizard mentality.  Your deep musings and defenses are pure entertainment to me and like a cat with lizard, I enjoy smacking your tail.  

Personally, I think you are just jealous because you have no ability to make it to the other side of the debate, let alone any deisre to learn something new. That you have not evolved, matured or  changed one fucking thing about the self you present here from the junkie control freak you were at the seed is so patently obvious, it's just too funny.  

To all those folks you scared who are reading this:folks- remember - he's just a man.  Another poor slob wrapped in a blanket of denial that won't forever keep him safe from the "fruits"  of his labor.  

I did not like you then and I especially don't like you now.  When you ask God to forgive you for what you have done and you seek the forgivness of those you hurt, maybe you will be able to see the gate and come on over.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2005, 06:29:00 PM »
Quote: As far as helping other people - hey, I had newcomers. I tried to help them, given what I knew from my seed training. Did I? Did it do good? Perhaps one will post here at some point and I will know. I do know that now, as a socially, politically, intellectually engaged person, I try to do well - I volunteer, I work for a progressive non-profit, I have a wife and a child, we recycle! Etc. I try to live a good life. The seed experience was a part of that, but I have a very different direction from what 'Seed straight' was.

Hey Wally Gator,

I will respond to your question being that I lived with you at the Seed and you were technically one of my old comers in the later stages of my program. I can remember you very clearly as if it were yesterday I never considered you or thought of you as some lower rung member, the thought never occurred to me. Maybe because at this point of the game I was completely oblivious to any type of status climbing by anyone, I felt some people had more importance than others but just accepted this as the nature of things.  I always respected you very much and thought you were hysterical it was hard not to talk to you and leave the conversation not feeling good or better. The example you lead was very good and I felt that on the outside you toted the line very well (I never saw the internal conflicts you were wrestling with). Remember the rule ?If you see or hear of anyone with a problem?? I did think you did had some issues with your work situation and in retrospect your jobs did not match your intellectual capacity or your personality for that matter. Someone like yourself should have been encouraged to go to school and develop themselves in that direction but at that time I lack in maturity and did not have the benefit of experience under my belt. I fell victim to that mentality which was to conform to my position not challenge any directive given by Staff or Art and just go along for the ride. This was way too easy for me and matched my personality to a tee. Later this created a huge conflict within me as I wanted to try different things and all I keep hearing was I did not need to go in certain directions and to just be happy and grateful with where I was at. This was the one point and beef I had with the Seed I needed to grew and experience new things I needed to cut some ties and venture out on my own find my own strength and individuality. All this is hindsight and we were just trying our best to figure things out.  

One major event that really opened my eyes was when you left in the middle of the night. I was the last person that you saw from the Seed that night. Do you remember? You going out to the living room in the middle of the night and we watched some stupid grade B comedy you looked tormented and I wrote off as just not being able to sleep and just like that you were gone. The next morning I was awaken by Bob W to a barge of questions about you. I can clearly remember Bob explaining to me how we all had a past and these things happened and this kind of confused me with the way I was suppose to feel. I had no ill feeling or anger toward you just felt sad that you were gone and I knew that I would miss your presence but I also knew or had an idea as how I was suppose to react to the situation so I just stayed silent and harbored any questions or feelings I might have had about the whole situation.  I remember laughing to myself when I realized one of the only things you took was your electric piano thinking how you must of loved that piano.
 It was at this time I saw for the first time not all was perfect in our little world and I never really saw that some day in the not too distant future that I to would be wresting with very similar issues.
I remember you with very fond memories and imagine my surprise to find you on this web site finally getting the full explanation to an event that left me so perplexed many years ago. By the way I always enjoy your posts and have nothing but good wishes for you and your family.   I guess you can accuse ?of looking at the world thru rose colored glasses?, as we use to say but it was people like you that I met while I was at the Seed that I look at the Seed as a very good and worthwhile experience. I certainly appreciate your point of view because it comes from someone that live the experience just as I did.  
       
Thanks Wally Gator,
 from a long lost Cuban brother
CG
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2005, 06:50:00 PM »
Hey Stripe,

Just throwing an old cheap shot you wished you have thrown 30 odd years ago? Give the guy a break at least he has the balls to post. Is this not the purpose of this site to discuss to listen and to come to terms? John's post must be like a wet dream to Greg & Antigen. I for one hope he keeps posting and expressing himself. Sometimes it?s hard to see the forest thru the trees my friend.
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Offline Anonymous

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2005, 07:42:00 PM »
I swear it sounds and begining to feel like a womans homeless shelter or clinic or abused wives home.  Maybe you should direct this shit btowards your husband.  I don't mean to be insulting, but thats what its beginning to sound like...  ::boohoo::  ::boohoo::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Filobeddoe

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Against My Better Judgement
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2005, 10:25:00 PM »
Greetings to you again John from a fellow Seed graduate. I am glad that you took some time to read other posts & to respond again.

Your point about the lack of discussion on this board about "helping others" is well-taken BUT... I don't believe it is fair to conclude that the commonality of the members as a bunch of self-obsessed spoiled brats.

The whole point of relating in a forum like this is to share "your" experiences and the events that affected "your" life. So it is not unusual to run into alot "I this" or "I that".

Even the most jaded & cynical of the former seedlings can think back & remember many times where they a) were truly glad to see a fellow new-comer finally "get it" & start to be honest and to see his/her face "glow" with genuine happiness or b) while a fellow seedling was being come down on in the rap was able to say something that they could relate to & that helped them or c) felt at some time (for a relatively brief moment)  that The Seed really could change the world because they could see how the program was helping "them" or d) saw the new tough guy doing the hokey pokey & having fun or e) helped a newcomer see that it could be "cool" to be straight.... etc.

Let's face it.. The Seed used pretty extreme peer pressure to counteract peer pressure. Some call it brain-washing and it could certainly have good & ill effects. Particularly if there is no room for debating certain issues, which the program did not tolerate. The Seed wasn't a messy democracy but a more efficient dictatorship.. which arguably is what was needed but not ideal. I can remember a time in Guys Rap when we were talking about games we used to play with chicks for example & someone would describe how they had a lot of FUN going out surfing with the girls or out riding dirt bikes, etc... when that really wasn't the "right" thing to say & they got pounded verbally. Anything about the "old days" couldn't be fun because we were so f**ked up & miserable - which of course wasn't always true. But, we had to say we were miserable to "fit in" and avoid getting stood up. If the program would have tolerated more "honest" conversation & some debate while instilling the core principles you talked about (self honesty, love of self & others, etc) it would have helped a lot. When I told someone passing by "I Love You".... many times it was heartfelt but after awhile I was just "saying" what I was supposed to say. Know what I mean?

I am no expert, but from what I have heard about  AA over the years... it seems to be a better program in respect to allowing the participants in the group to do or say whatever they want while trying to impress on them that it is the common experience that "if you do "X" then "Y" will happen, but if you don't believe it go find out yourself. We will be here for you anytime you need help". That is a very compassionate & empathetic support group. By contrast, The Seed could be very caring & supportive BUT only if you said & did the right things and didn't ever question Art or Staff.

As "I" have said here in this forum a few times, I am glad that I went to The Seed... it helped put me on the right path after "hitting the bottom" at the tender age of 16. However, when I graduated I did not want to continue participating because it was so rigid and I was paranoid about getting thrown back in. I was lucky to have a group of seedlings in my town that I stayed friends with for many years. We had fun & helped each other grow into adulthood. I did & still do try to help people with problems tho & I give you & The Seed alot of credit for helping me "grow up". Thank you!
Greg J
Sarasota
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »