Author Topic: Note to John Underwood  (Read 18250 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2005, 02:28:00 PM »
UH OH -- sounds like a sexual comment :grin:
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Offline Antigen

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2005, 02:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-10 07:28:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

I just wanted any other "dummy's like myself to understand.  


That's exactly how I learned about that. Someone used it in a conversation, I had no idea what they were talking about, so I looked it up.

"I predict, Sir, that you will die either by hanging or of some vile disease."
 "That all depends, sir, upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
--Disraeli to Gladstone

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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #47 on: August 10, 2005, 02:30:00 PM »
Comment# 2, new and imroved.


" I understand you feeling kinda groovy, but let go of your own damn self."
 :grin:  :grin:
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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #48 on: August 10, 2005, 02:51:00 PM »
OK- but its dificult especially when privately you talk dirty to me and I'm a man. :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
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Offline Napolean Bonafart

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #49 on: August 10, 2005, 04:20:00 PM »
well if you're that hungry first you've got to get a clean halucengenic and just trip your brains out on some trax that are cool with some headphones first. I recommend fobidden vynil. And get away from people that aren't tripping with you. You'll figure out the rest the next day. Just make sure the Feds give you clean stuff. I recommend 1 pin-drop of LSD. If you're that hungry go ahead.........I dare you to increase our IQ.

He that lives upon hope will die fasting
--Benjamin Franklin 1758


Oh yeh but I'll never revealwhen I fast and you wouldn't know it if I were. But greg take vitamin C and check out this cool DVD called "Rainbow Bridge". You'll finf it in the Jimi Henfrix rack at circuit city. Also just remember you really are hungry.Ah Hell I finished a 14 week course in 23 dayz on just plain cheap acid my secion leader gave me at radioman school 3.8 grade average.
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2005, 05:10:00 PM »
Er...no thanks.

Just cut a branch off the ole mustard tree.  


That'll do it for me.

 :grin:  :grin:
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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2005, 05:46:00 PM »
Hey Greg,

The biting remark was not meant for you but for Ginger. Not meant to be a big deal or a personal attack. To answer your question yes I do remember Big Frank and also read the post when he committed suicide or accidental overdose. I did feel bad for him wished he was still around I do not subscribe to the opinion that drug addicts or users get what they deserve.
Just wanted to say a couple of things about this as I can remember Frank blamed his problems because of the time he was at the Seed but I often wonder if the cure was worst than the disease(especially in the case of people that went through the program as minors).
I can only speak for myself when I think about my current dysfunctions with my life and there origins.   I went into the Seed because I had some issues and needed to get control of my life What I heard there seamed to me logical and simple and if I applied some of these things perhaps I could control my life. Not everything changed I still had certain problems I needed to deal with and I could not blame the Seed for these things, for one placing blame on the Seed would only be side stepping the issue and not do anything to resolve my problem. So the question I ask is was Frank a victim of the Seed or just overwhelmed by his own problems and just using the Seed as a scapegoat? I would not even try to answer the question out of respect for Big Frank.

   I can not see my experience in the Seed as a young teenager because I was not, I was older and weathered when I went to the Seed and because of this I will not allow myself to discredit your perception of the Seed. We were at very different places in our lives when we experienced the Seed. Perhaps if I were younger when I experienced the Seed I would see things eye to eye with you. Also, take into account that in the 80?s the Seed program was much smaller and an older crowd prevailed. I will agree with you that the Seed was flawed I will not argue that point and to me this was obvious especially toward the end of my stay but this will not negate the credit I give to the Seed and for the tools the Seed taught to me in dealing with life. I was 22 when I walked into the Seed and in spite of it all I choose to stay. (I?ve been working on this post since this morning and new posts have gone up since than. Dam I wish I was a faster thinker).

   The ideals of the Seed were sound, love those around you, and set an example for those around you. Don?t be the weak link, love people, and be honest with yourself and with others. Do things to make yourself feel proud of yourself this will develop good feelings about yourself, Stand up for your beliefs and I could go on and on. If you don?t believe that these are sound ideas just try applying these things I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
 
I remember listening to raps about how close we all were and the love that we share will carry on forever. I guess I could not see how small little attitudes and interivalries would eventually play out and destroy. What I could see and never sat right with me was the so called hero worship so many people professed to have for Art. Never felt it and it always scared the hell out of me. In my particular case Art was nothing but kind to me and often remember being at his house scared and paranoid of saying something wrong or doing the wrong thing and having the wrath of Staff fall upon me(never happened). His words were quoted as Holy Scripture and gratitude was always spoken and given to him.
   Even after all of this and all these years I do not see him as an evil or cunning. I see Art through kinder eyes someone who tried to change things for the better and after many years of self reflection see him for a very strong influence in my life. Was the Seed flawed? Hell yea but so was I, and not in any way does this negate all the positive lessons the Seed taught me and to negate this would be deny who I am today.  

Hey but that?s just what I think
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #52 on: August 10, 2005, 05:52:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-10 14:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hey Greg,



The biting remark was not meant for you but for....

"


I knew that, but it was such a good opportunity to get in another tree/bush joke I just coudln't resist!

 :grin:
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2005, 05:55:00 PM »
scientology, haris krisna, the moonies and many other mind cults have "solid ideals".

It is the methodology of imparting these ideals with that I take issue with, along with the bastardization of the meaning of the words (such as "honesty and awareness").  This is a common element of all cults.

Thanks for your post
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Offline Antigen

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2005, 06:17:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-10 14:55:00, GregFL wrote:

It is the methodology of imparting these ideals with that I take issue with.


No, no! It's "with which I take issue."

But yeah, couldn't have said it better otherwise. LOL

The Roman Catholic Church had a policy of burning all pre-Columbian information as pagan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian' target='_new'>Wiki

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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2005, 06:25:00 PM »
I just thought they made it up in that stupid Jodie Foster movie....
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Offline Anonymous

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2005, 06:41:00 PM »
Can?t make a comment on scientology, haris krisna, or the moonies never been a part of them don?t even know much about them. I can only comment about my experience at the Seed. The Seed never taught that some comet will fly by and we could hitch a ride to another world on it. I never once ever heard mention by anyone that Art was the incarnation of God on earth.
The Seed primary function or purpose was to get people straight by that I mean to stop using drugs or for that matter stop drinking. To lump the Seed into the same group as heavens gate or The Branch (Divedends?) seems to me a little harsh and we could argue this forever. To do this would be akin to taking a once of truth and turning it into 10 lbs of shit.  

   Are you saying that being honest, to work hard to love those around you are wrong?
 All I?m trying to say is the ideas are and were sound (good and functional).Even if some of the teachers were flawed. I will not deny that the Seed did have some cultish elements hell that is why I left the Seed. Again I will only speak for myself, the lessons learned did me good and have served me right. I understand things better I'm better adjusted person and I can understand people.
 I guess its in how I choose to look at my experience.
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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2005, 06:54:00 PM »
No,you just heard that

the seedlings were the chosen people to change the world.

Seedlings had "special powers of awareness" that allowed them to know what others were thinking

Art Barker had a hyper sense of self awareness and an extra capacity to love.

without the group you would de dead insane or in jail.


----------
quote: Are you saying that being honest, to work hard to love those around you are wrong?
------------

no, Im saying that redefining those terms is wrong. Seedlings were rarely honest. For instance, you couldnot express any doubts about art barker, could you? Didn't you have them? What would have happened for instance if you stood up and said "letting Art win at softball is just a big bunch of bullshit designed to feed his ego?

Honest?  Hardly.  

Love is the most commonly jaked phrase by cults of all. Love means you are in good standing with the group and little more. The minute you don't comply with any cult, they banish you. Where was the love for John Underwood, for example, when after 6 years they banished him and never again spoke to him for a simple disagrement?

Love? What a silly notion.....


And I NEVER compared the Seed to Heavens gate or the branch dividians. I compared them to the Moonies, scientologist and Hari Krisnas.  One of the main differences was those places are voluntary, and their coercise mind control techniques aren't nearly as brutal.  Go ask any one of them about their "ideals"..you may be surprised.


then again...there is that kool aide thing in common....

 :grin:
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Offline Antigen

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2005, 06:58:00 PM »
No, you've swerving madly around the point. Nothing wrong with the stated ideals at all. It's the method that's messed up.

Do you understand why they'd do things like hang a toilet seat around someone's neck and then have the rest of group humiliate them? Never mind whether or not that sort of treatment is therapeutic or not. I think it's pretty clear to anyone that it's not. But it is effective and affective. Do you understand how it works?

Ok, how about monitoring people on the toilet? Why did they do that? How about dissallowing any contact with the outside world, including the parents who placed them there and who, presumably, were not olddruggiefriends? Why'd they do that? And why do they do exactly the same thing in all Synanon based programs, bar none?

Here's another example. Why place teenaged kids in positions of authority over new inductees? Didn't you ever feel you were in over your head when you were an oldcomer responsible for a newcomer? As an adult looking back on that, don't you think that's rather an odd policy? They don't trust you enough to have a bank account or even decide for yourself which job to take or when you need a treatment session. And yet, paradoxically, they trust you w/ the very life of another human being whom, according to Program dogma, is on the verge of suicide or insanity.

Do you understand the method of treatment that you received? Do you understand how it works? Why it works? And, more importantly, the side effects?

I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor



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Offline GregFL

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Note to John Underwood
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2005, 07:12:00 PM »
the moonies....


"The recruit is not left alone. As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs. J. Isamu Yamamoto states in his book The Puppet Master, It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children' have someone of their opposite sex (seed-same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself(don't even try in the seed you will be tackled to the floor), someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group. You are even escorted to the rest room( and then ovserved and logged in the seed)." The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them. You are separated into small groups (boys rap, girls rap), led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control. From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."

If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded. The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone. They are only allowed to speak about spiritual(seedling) things within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed. "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," states The Puppet Master. "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low. When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern (come down sessions). Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points  the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love. Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."

Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please. "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform," The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it. You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement. The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit will beg and plead for the recruit to stay. "There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," The Puppet Master states.

After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment....After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day. Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.



Anything here ring any bells?


what about their ideals?

Here are a few...

Seek to become that master of love. Program your life like that, and you will never be a loser.

Open up the baggage of your mind and look what you find there.

We need to change our concepts. Our attitude is an environment that must be prepared in order to receive spiritual help.





The main differences between the moonies and the seed circa 1973 are as thus...

the moonies were voluntary (yet coercise) while the seed was not.

the techniques are much harsher and severe in the seed

the moonies had a religious element.

the average age of the moonie was 6 or so years higher.



This is for anyone  struggling with the concerpt that you were in a cult.
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