Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

Note to John Underwood

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FueLaw:
First, to Anon why am I pompus ?  I am not saying that other people were beat I am saying I was beat. I am also naming the people that did it. In an interview with a reporter several years ago Robert Chun acknowledged it. Will John Underwood do the same ?

The fact that I am a lawyer today has nothing to do with the fact that I, along with thousands of others, were mentally abused by scum of the earth maggots like Robert Chun and John Underwood.

Second, to John_Ft.Pierce, I moved an old post or thread back to the top. You begins with "Hello Everybody"

[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-08-08 09:08 ]

80's Guy:
I haven't posted for several weeks, but I think it would be appropriate since I have been hearing the name JU from the time I was 17 years old, but never had the pleasure of meeting the person. This way I can read his posts and at least get a better idea of what he was/is like through his own words versus the second hand memories that I heard about him for over 20 years. I still remember hearing his name sprinkled in raps, often his name would emerge as part of some oldtimer's nostalgic picture of the "old days." I never heard anything negative about him, perhaps certan inner circle members knew about the confrontation between L. and JU, but it was never public group knowledge from 1980-2000+.

As I have posted in previous posts, I walked into that group in 1980. I was associated with that group much longer than JU or many others as I stayed for over 20 years, until the day it closed and beyond. . .up to the final days that ended in the "great dramatic divide," where followers were pulled between AB's army or LK's army. Of course, the "apocalyptic event" exploded a la White House Inner Circle style,(like everything else in that group), where first the privileged (JU would have probably been one of them had he "stuck it out" as some of us more ignorant idiots did for so many years) were informed of issues the group was having and then later the lower ranks would get the handmedown version of the great tragedy. The lower ranks were kept as outsiders, actually staff hoped they would not find out what was coming down. The lower ranks got to find out bits and pieces as the story mounted to a volcano. I personally was told, "there are problems at the s--d," but never was I told "the truth about some of these problems is that we caused them because we should have been honest a long time ago and now we have to cover our asses."

Bottom line the key persons on both sides (and there were several key players) forgot the first and most important rule" or "never learned it". . .you know the one about HONESTY, so they also forgot to have the decency to fill-in all the lower rank people, such as myself, about the problems at the s--d. To this day, not one of them has ever apologized for a truly hurting situation that they created out of selfishness and greed.  

I was a graduate but never on staff, though many times close to the inner circle, not a part of it. . my story goes on for over 20 years, not just 6 of my post-adolescent years. In my opinion, JU to his credit, got out when he realized that L. was on her way up (she did, after, all reign unquestionably to the end). I must say I do respect JU for at least he recognized the inevitable truth that all were not created equal witin the walls of st. rd. 84. . . especially cause that was only the beginning. Basically, many of us, if not about 90+% of the people that stuck around through the 80's, 90's, and beginning 2000, lived in complete obedience not only to AB, but to L. There was no questioning L. about anything at any time. If she said jump, we definately jumped, for many, many, many years, not just 6.  

It would have been interesting, however, to see how long JU would have stayed had he gone along and allowed L. to truly dominate as she did for over 20 years. Would he have still not lost sight of the so-called dream, which by the way any virtues that I was exposed to in that group certainly exist, and more so, in major religions and smaller groups of people that promote brotherhood, courage, friendship, and love. Unfortunately, many there had there eye on much more than these virtues.

JU is right. He knew better and did not stick around for the era of where one or two were destined and blessed to become lawyers and doctors, but not others, several were destined and blessed to be married, but not others, some were destined and blessed to be business people, but not others. . .Others should keep a very low profile becuase you are pretty much invisible to those in power, so stay out of the way, and someone will let you know when things are different.

I personally remember feeling trapped within people who did not understand me . . .I remember many of them laughed at being gay, when I and a few others (some stayed tightly in the closet)were coming to terms with who we were. . i remember being told at 17 "Oh, don't worry about being gay, we can all relate to being gay before we came in. . .it's no big deal. . .it will go away, concentrate on the important stuff. . .what's being said in the group." And then 20 years went by and I had repressed everything so deep that it has been in the last several years of my life that I feel free to be who I really am inside--true to me. Also. the constant anxiety and paranoia has stopped, the cramps in my stomach from years of living in fear of when would I be told off for being so full of shit, for fantasizing, daydreaming, wanting so much more and so many different goals than the boring, unmotivating options staff offered anytime I had to listen to their advise on what to do with my life. Thank God I stopped listening. Ultimately, I did do my own thing in terms of career and ignored staff's blatant disapproval (or was it jealousy) of how how high and how far I could shine for me. The funny part about it is that I always made sure to thank them every step of the way. . but that was not enough for them.  

Sadly, I guess I was one of the weaker ones (back then), unlike JU who had the courage to stand up to them way back when he was only there for six years. I COULD NOT FIND THE STRENGTH AT 17 AND BEYOND TO STAND UP TO THEM BECAUSE I WAS AFRAID THAT IF I WENT AGAINST THEM I WOULD SHATTER MY PARENTS' HEARTS WHO HAD PAID IN 1980 WHATEVER THEY COULD TO MAKE ME STARIGHT -- BOTH SEXUALLY AND DRUG WISE. JU did not invest 2 decades of his life into a group that really did not, at least, post 80's know what true love really was. Snitching, humiliating, discriminating, and certainly very good at trying to "read people like a book" for the purpose of power playing and conquering. Yes, there were some good things about the 20 plus years I was there. If I did not reconcile the good with the bad, I would be totally empty inside because I cannot erase all those years and the emotional and psychological impression they had on me. I do recognize, however, that the perspectives of soemone who was on staff for 6 years are very different than someone who really did grow up at The Seed. Unfortuantely, I was also sheltered way beyond JU and only started to gain real independence after it all fell  apart.  I do not resent JU or any other person who worked at that place simply because I do beleive that they thought what they were involved in was right. I still wonder how my life might have been different if I had had the courage that JU describes. . .instead i really just waited whether it was in the warehouse or back on Andrew's house for the last and final round.

Anonymous:
One of the things I can remember very clearly is in the end just before I decided to leave the Seed was the overwhelming frustration I felt. The realization of my own inability to make my own decisions and how much control I had relinquished in my day to day life. I was often told not too worry that things would work out for the best and things would fall into place. As I grew in my perception I began to (dare I say) see the weakness around me. I began to realize that people that professed that they were a part of the group out of strength and loyalty and gratitude were actually completely weak and dependent on this group.
Even as the group had a firm gripe on my persona my frustration turned to anger, I tried to suppress these overwhelming feelings (How could I walk away from the people that saved me and loved me so much? Where would I fit into a world that would not accept me or love me?) But, I just could not keep my frustration in check. At the time I was convinced that something must be terrible wrong with me and that I needed to find out why I was being so irrational and SELFISH.
It took me a long time even after I walked away from the Seed to realize how twisted things had become. The whole point was to rehabilate people to function within the world not to hide from the world in some pseudo utopian bullshit ideal. It took me a while to give myself permission to question my experience at the Seed and find fault with some of what was taught to me as absolute truth.
Over-all the ideas were sound and true what was flawed was the human execution of these ideas. The personal ambition of some perverted the good and in the end destroyed their little world. It makes me sad to see people who are good people picking up the pieces to their lives trying to make sense of all that happened. I guess some people can argue that it was their fault for not having the insight or courage to walk away sooner but I?m not in that group.  I have personal experience of the gripe the Seed could get on someone and how hard it was to actually walk away.
The Seed was a bitter sweet experience in my life that taught me great things but at a price, but than again almost everything in life is bittersweet.    
To compare my experience at the Seed to that of a POW or a survivor of a gulag would be a great disservice to all those who actually did service those horrible places and would only attest my own self weakness.

cleveland:
80s Guy...you were much braver that JU, who from his position of relative privelege, was able to talk back to L, and to question AB. Even today, rereading his post, he designates anyone who questions the 'dream' of the Seed as weak, as if the only issue where 'hard chairs and baloney sandwiches.' In spite of his obvious intellegence, and his courage for posting here, he is missing the essential point. And note, he has not responded (yet) to anyone who has answered his post. Will he?

You and I, on the other hand, were low-caste members of the Seed. You know, we were taught that meekness and unquestioning obedience to authority were strengths; unquestioning loyalty was expected, and we be and large gave it. There is something beautiful about sacrifice, simplicity and obedience - I worked to achieive a Zen-like state, but as usual, some of those in power used our submission to further their own ends, whether it was career, relationships or ego. How different was this from Catholic Bishops, or political figures, or even the 'popular' kid in high school? It is human nature, but those in power cannot admit that they are in that position by happenstance and luck to a large degree.

The Seed did not empower us as fully functional human beings. I know there are those here, and I respect them, who feel different, who feel that the Seed saved them, changed their life, and taught them lessons. It did that for me as well. But I am right to question, to ask probing and embarrasing questions - after all, I gave everything for many years and asked for nothing in return, except the love I was told would be mine.

So, you are the hero, for trying to be true to an ideal, even at great personal cost. You weren't in it for power, or status, or to be better than everyone. You did it cause you thought it was right. And then you had the courage, slowly, to grow into the person you are. I would challenge anyone to deny you your humanity.

The Seed distorted the nature of 'honesty;' you have done your best to live it.

John Underwood was a name I always heard, as a leader. I respect him for posting here now but I wonder if he can take on some criticism, or does he still see that as weakness? Was he the only one free to question?

GregFL:
I distinctly remember John and being very afraid of his presense and power. Suzie Connors was the designated Head of the St Pete Seed but John Said and did whatever he wanted and really was the acting boss of the place. When Art came he just baffooned and grandstanded his way around the place. Once he left it was JU, Suzie, Cliff and Libby we answered to and feared.
Johns seed experience  experience was a real one but it was his, not mine. Unlike john who credits idealistic life lessons to the seed,  I was scared, humiliated, belittled and wounded there. The seed stunted my emotional growth for years and caused me to hate authority and lose my family.  That is not sour grapes. John was a big part of that process...IE my humiliation and fear, but I do not blame him. I do not blame anyone. What happened happened and as Ginger said, it was errors born out of good intentions.

 I do believe that, and anyone harmed during or by the seed i hope they too can bury the pain and compartmentalize the experience.

I have come to appreciate many people who vehemently disagree with me on this issue. I too have grown from this website and now can converse with people like JU, talk and laugh, argue and make points/counterpoints, and leave a conversation feeling much better for the experience. After John and I talked the other day I think we both took something very valuable from the experience. I hope he feels the same way.

Man I would love to have the same experience with Libby or Art. I would just love to talk to those guys adult to adult. In the past it was really  me approaching the issue from the vantage point of a hurt 14 year old and that is why I lashed out at Art barker when I saw him some 25 years ago. I am so happy to be able to let go of that anger.  I wish it for everyone who endured, survived, graduated, ran from or otherwise departed from one of these programs.

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