Some insight(s)

[landyh]

"Relating it to myself" :smile:I was the youngest person to ever go to the original seed. I was there when Hap and Mavis were there.  I was nine years old and went voluntarily the first time with my sister Marcia. I learned about love and honesty there. I met a former comedian who had been saved by the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and had a dream to help the kids he loved in the way he had been helped. I was an oldtimer by the time the Seed moved to what would become the Haunted House. I led rap sessions at less than ten years old and because of the "awareness" you speak about I could call "bullshit" on a grown man and create a breakthrough for him. Was the hotseat tough? Yes it was but it helped people because in those early days it was strictly motivated by love. My second time around things had changed, gotten to big out at St Rd 84. There were many more egos involved and alot less love. Has what I learned there been good? I think so. It did not prevent the battle with alcoholism and then legally obtained narcotics that followed but I think helped me through them. Awareness was a powerful and positive tool for me and that has never left. Because of the seed I knew where to go when alcohol defeated me. I went where Art had and found a way of life that truly "works when I work it". I am gratefull for what I experiened at the seed even the second time around. I went on the Skipper Chuck Show for the Seed when I was very young maybe 12 maybe 10 not sure. Was I used? I didn't feel that way I wanted others to find the peace love, awareness, and honesty that the program had given me. I had forgotten my expeiences there until just the other day or at least had not thought of it in a long time. I am glad I found this place and I hope that there might be some who remember me from those earliest days. Please contact me if you would like at my e-mail address at "[email protected]". I think that I remembered for a reason and found this sight for a reason. Another thing I gained from my experience there was a personal relationship with God and I believe I am writing here now because it has become time to resolve some of that time in my life. Anybody who knew Art before the Seed became so big that staff isolated him would know that even if the overall experiment may have ended and in some sense failed he was motivated by love and the desire to give away the gift he had recieved in recovery. No world takeover plans just a man lit up with love and a burning desire to help kids. Did Art's ego come into play? Of course.  He was a comedian, a showmnan and doesn't that in and of itself reflect a man who sought validation through the attention of others. But could God motivate anyone of us to his work without reward in some form. Was the Seed a cult of the personality of Art Barker? In some senses I would say yes. Anyone who met Art in the early day was captivated by him and the love that he radiated.He was a charismatic figure and displayed pride in things such as his relationship with Jackie Gleason. That sort of thing fed him no doubt. When I recognised my alcoholism for the first time at 18 or 19 years old he was who I sought. By that time he was totally isolated by his staff. A staff that had no concern for a former member who was in trouble. That saddens me still. But still because of him I knew where I had to go and I have no sense in me of ill will regarding his intentions to be anything but a beacon of help. The early Seed like AA would not have have accepted the kind of support that came with strings.  Does that make Art a control freak? It works very well for AA and perhaps it was the acceptance of support outside of that principal that proved to be the downfall of the Seed. I learned many things from the seed chief among them was to live from a place of love. I also learned in a deep and abiding way that dishonesty particularly with myself would erode and block that love and the serenity that emanated from living that path.  That is what the Seed was no matter what it became. I have recolections of people who influenced me there but some are fussy. Art, Shelly, Hap, Mavis(brutal but wonderful),Charlie, Libby(whose story was heartbreaking), Darlene(I don't want to use the B word but how else to describe her), John and many more whose names I can't remember. I hope there are some among you who remember the time I have described as well. It was a different but important experience for me and I would love to hear from those who remember it as I did when I was there.
Peace I'm out for now

[Antigen]

More evidence that the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Dude, much of that "awareness" you gained at the tender age of 9 was simply not the truth. The truth is that, given the right circumstances to provide perceived authority over another, yes indeed, a 9yo kid can impeach and pressure a grown man to the point of emotional breakdown. But do you truely and honestly think that the program dogma that spewed forth from that 9yo boy's mouth was accurate assessment? Do you think you actually had some special powers of perception? Or do you think maybe it just seemed that way cause, so long as you were spouting the party line, everyone in the room seemed to agree with you and defer to your authority?

I had a very lonely childhood due to having believed what you just said. There I was, about 9 or 10, telling off my elders, busting them for unSeedlinglike comportment and all that and getting all kinds of strokes for it. Why wouldn't I believe what all of my elders said? I liked hearing that I made sense and had unusual wisdom and clarity. I was completely taken up in the moment to the point where I treated my schoolmates and neighbor kids as inferiors. After all, I had the gift of Seed awareness. I was a good little honorary Seedling who would go on to do great things. Them? Poor bastards, 90% of them were destined to grow up to be druggise. It would be sad, I thought, to have to watch that. But maybe I could reach some of them before it was too late. Oh now THAT made me very popular!  :roll:

WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION  
-- Ethiopian Proverb

[landyh]

On 2005-11-22 11:40:00, Antigen wrote:

"More evidence that the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Dude, much of that "awareness" you gained at the tender age of 9 was simply not the truth. The truth is that, given the right circumstances to provide perceived authority over another, yes indeed, a 9yo kid can impeach and pressure a grown man to the point of emotional breakdown. But do you truely and honestly think that the program dogma that spewed forth from that 9yo boy's mouth was accurate assessment? Do you think you actually had some special powers of perception? Or do you think maybe it just seemed that way cause, so long as you were spouting the party line, everyone in the room seemed to agree with you and defer to your authority?



I had a very lonely childhood due to having believed what you just said. There I was, about 9 or 10, telling off my elders, busting them for unSeedlinglike comportment and all that and getting all kinds of strokes for it. Why wouldn't I believe what all of my elders said? I liked hearing that I made sense and had unusual wisdom and clarity. I was completely taken up in the moment to the point where I treated my schoolmates and neighbor kids as inferiors. After all, I had the gift of Seed awareness. I was a good little honorary Seedling who would go on to do great things. Them? Poor bastards, 90% of them were destined to grow up to be druggise. It would be sad, I thought, to have to watch that. But maybe I could reach some of them before it was too late. Oh now THAT made me very popular!  :roll:

WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION  
-- Ethiopian Proverb

"

I just spent twenty writing a billiant reply which is now food for the cyber gods. I don't have the energy for quite that level of brilliance so this will have to suffice even if it happens to be less worthy. If you are asking if I recognize the involvement of my ego in those experiences then the answer is yes. Do I agree with your argument that awareness was an illusion? Not at all. Can I not learn about others as I learn about myself. Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. I have my own conflicts from being there twice. I acknowlege that but the early seed was something different from what it evolved to. So I sit with you on some of this while at the same time I have to ask by virtue of what are you able to attack this percieved sin of "awareness" without being awash in guilt of the same crime in and of your very statement. Yet there is much I agree with in terms of this lttle gift as a source of validation. Am I bad because I needed that validation? The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all  f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace

[Antigen]

Well, let me back up then. I can't remember, or even imagine, a Seed where one could really speak their mind. You had to filter every word, every response, every thought or decision through the Program appropriate filter. No, I don't think you learn much of anything true under those circumstances. You damned sure learn the Program philosophy, but there's no natural reality check. You rely on a false concensus, you get a false result.

Was it different first time around? I mean, could you speak freely? Could you, for example, talk to old friends if you wanted to? Or talk about good times you had had in your past w/o bringing down some dissaproval?

" Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. "

No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that.

You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things.

And no, I don't think any of us are bad for needing validation. I just think it's a highly flawed formula for doling it out, that's all. Under normal circumstances, where dissent is allowed and people are free to think and say what they want, we get validation when they actually agree with us. In the Seed, you could only get it by agreeing w/ Art, whether he was right or wrong.

Was he not always like that?

"The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace"

Wait a second. What could you have possibly done by the age of 9 to describe yourself as fucked up?I look at my 9yo daughter and just can't even begin to imagine dropping her off, or even allowing her unescorted, at a place like the Seed.

If you don't mind, how did you land up there?

A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.


--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

[landyh]

On 2005-11-22 19:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"Well, let me back up then. I can't remember, or even imagine, a Seed where one could really speak their mind. You had to filter every word, every response, every thought or decision through the Program appropriate filter. No, I don't think you learn much of anything true under those circumstances. You damned sure learn the Program philosophy, but there's no natural reality check. You rely on a false concensus, you get a false result.



Was it different first time around? I mean, could you speak freely? Could you, for example, talk to old friends if you wanted to? Or talk about good times you had had in your past w/o bringing down some dissaproval?



" Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. "



No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that.



You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things.



And no, I don't think any of us are bad for needing validation. I just think it's a highly flawed formula for doling it out, that's all. Under normal circumstances, where dissent is allowed and people are free to think and say what they want, we get validation when they actually agree with us. In the Seed, you could only get it by agreeing w/ Art, whether he was right or wrong.



Was he not always like that?



"The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace"



Wait a second. What could you have possibly done by the age of 9 to describe yourself as fucked up?I look at my 9yo daughter and just can't even begin to imagine dropping her off, or even allowing her unescorted, at a place like the Seed.



If you don't mind, how did you land up there?

A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.


--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)

"

The early seed was based much more on principal and suggestions much more like AA. In rap for instance the leader might not even pick the topic. You were to speak strictly from your experience yes but freeely within that context. True you couldn't talk about how pam felt or charlie felt or I felt but it felt more like guidance than pressure or force at that time. Be honest and relate what your saying to yourself. They had rules of honesty, no boy girl in early program etc. But they were commonsense rules. Remember the people that were there showed up because they wanted and needed something different. They wanted off the path to destruction. It seems to me that at the time you had be there by choice. They wouldn't do it any other way. Druggy friends well "you know if you hang out in a barbershop your going to get a haircut". And any of us knows that if you are serious about recovery and understand that addictive behavior can have triggers it made sense to minimize those triggers in your life. And since the only real program filter was honesty the reverse of what you say was really true then. They had no mechanism other than your own honesty to establish where you were at. Did people lie in group and maybe use and get away with it at times? Yes and sometimes they would later own up to it on there own because they saw by some insight that they had only sabotaged themselves. I think there might have been some early members who were asked to leave because they wouldn't work the program. This I am not sure about.

and me?
Well In the early days of the 9th year of my life my mom left my dad and both of us children. Almost immediately after I started hanging out with people who I thought were cool. I started smoking pot with my sister and soon had several friends who showed me how to huff tranmission fluid, pertussin and laquer thinner. It was in the mix of this that the older element of this group brutally and mercilessly sexually molested me and on more than one occasion. I feared for my life and the life of anybody I might tell.So I stuffed it. I started drinking whenever I could along with what else I was doing. In fear of my life and ashamed I told no one of what had happened to me until I was over 40 years old. I misssed 60 days of school in 5th grade. Everybody tried to help at school and at home asking what was wrong and assuming it was only the divorce that had traumatized me. I did nothing to disuade this but my behavior became increasingly erattic with bouts of rage and a complete and total disregard for any type of authority. I ran away from home three times. Why I don't know I was actually safe there. I built around myself an image that I thought would protect me. Part of that image was violent rage. I wore boots that were amenable to being able to stomp people, a belt with a buckle that could cause damage and carried a 12" lock blade knife everywhere I went. I never really hurt anybody. It was all facade. I had been desecrated and I was hostile yet petrifried. That is where I was when my sister joined the seed and later brought me along with her because she felt responsible because she had let me smoke pot. Of course at this point I know that pot was not the problem but escaping was something I was strongly motivated to do because as little boy I didn't have the facility to heal the pain inside of me.I began stealing both money and things. I covered everything about me with lies. That was me when I got there.  
Thank you for the sweetful way you disagree with me and your interest

"No, nobody can really make a judgement like that for another person. I can't see why in the world some old ladies shave their eyebrows and paint on fake ones or old men wear obvious tupes. But I don't walk up to them on the street and start holding forth about it, far less questioning their reasons for dressing like that."

But you would if they asked you to help them figure out why they couldn't get a date and we were there asking why our lives wern't working. Sometimes we were resistant when we found out that we might really have to work and make hard changes to get better. But we were there because we wanted to get better.

"You can, however, jump to conclusions, get concensus or unanimous support or condemnation and conclude, incorrectly that you were right or wrong based on that. For example, I "knew", due to my Seedling-spidy senses who was going to start using drugs within two years. I believed it, I was sure of it, I thought I had great awareness. Unfortunately, I was wrong. Nobody could know those things."

There is in my mind a clear and distinct difference between what I thought of as awareness as compared to what you describe here which would be clairvoyance. Forget for a moment about calling somebody on something and think in terms of what awareness was at least to me. One aspect of the program was getting to know ones self. We humans are as remarkably similar as we are differnent but with minor variations people related story after story that not only related to others but to me. I understood where they coming from when they were shooting straight. When people reflected the same resistances that I had I related to that too. LEts pretend there is a biker who wants help but doesn't think he can actually give up his gang to get better. Can I see this as a possible problem in his ability to reach his goal of recovery. Of course I can. That doesn't mean that there are not exceptions to the rule. But you also saw people try it there way and fail seemingly to me more regularly than the other way around. But there was a deeper level. As an adult I regretfully ventured into infidelity during my second marriage. She knew without tangible evidence that something was going on. Just a little feeling that she was able build into a case where she knew beyond doubt. I was also on the the other side of that same unpleasant behavior which is only fair I suppose but without any evidence at all I knew before I knew. I couldn't prove it but I knew and before I ever had a case of any she disclosed to me what I already knew. I have had so many experiences that reinforce not disuade me from having confidence in what my inner voice tells me. If this is not your experience then were different. Thats OK. And when I get those feelings now I don't arrogantly assume I am right but I then start looking for other cues. Have I ever been slapped with something unexpectedly? You bet. It is just a tool and not the only one.
 
[ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 08:29 ]

[Antigen]

Yeah, I sort of get that. If it's voluntary. And it helps explain where Art got the idea that he had that exclusive access to The Answer®

But certainly you're not saying it was still like that, w/ honesty having the same definition, the 2nd time around?

The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour

[landyh]

On 2005-11-23 08:34:00, Antigen wrote:

"

But certainly you're not saying it was still like that, w/ honesty having the same definition, the 2nd time around?

The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour

"

No I can't say that. It was different. I hope you see my other posts just because this is consuming me at the moment and they explain some of the differences. Regimented, guarded and forced. This was not the Seed as  I knew it the 1st time at all. I had every jealosy out of the bathroom window and was climbing out when my oldcomer who unknown to me was outside waiting said "hey what ya doing". Off came the window cranks after that  and any hope but to sucumb. If I was as smart as I keep saying I was I would have waited a couple of nights before I tried it. Bet it would have worked. Live and learn.   [ This Message was edited by: landyh on 2005-11-23 17:59 ]

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Hey... Happy Thanksgiving to all..off to Jupiter for Turkey...

Landy , I'm enjoying your posts.

[landyh]

On 2005-11-24 04:16:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Hey... Happy Thanksgiving to all..off to Jupiter for Turkey...



Landy , I'm enjoying your posts.  "

Happy Thanksgiving back to you and to all here.
I am glad you are enjoying my posts I still appreciate that type of validation. :wink: I hope those few who actually remember me will let me know who they are. PM me and I will respect your privacy. I would just love to talk to you and also to hear what and who I was from a perspective other than mine. I put myself out there in a recognizable way because I felt it would make this journey more productive in spite of the risk.  
May the bird be moist, tasty and something to be thankful for.
Cheers

[Anonymous]

John,
Good to hear you.
Inspirational!
Thanks,
Clyde Freedom
andrews ave/SR84 "1972" grad

[Anonymous]

Thank you John.
I enjoy your contributions to my life.
Please say more.
What do you do now?
I am a builder.
I have a good life.
I work hard.
I have 3 kids.
One could do well at the seed the other two are well on their way to great things.
I did not realize that so many hate. I thought it was about real things.
Love to all,
Clyde Freedom

[Anonymous]

You said:
But the really great thing about your appearance here is that your comments turned on the light and KAPOW!! No more boogie men. How freaking cool is that?
Its great.
So your a late bloomer.
John was a good leader for me.
Clyde Freedom

[SMiamiPimp]

Hey, some of you tech wizards should start a digital archive.

Pictures
downloadable mpeg news reels
sounds bytes

I know you can convert 16 MM film to digital format.

Like the ability to download the Ralph Renick Seed news segment from the 70s. I know the archival footage has to be somewhere....

As part of this website......

Just a Christmas wish list.

I got the idea because I have started collecting Vince Lombardi speech MP3s and archival footage that has been digitized and it is pretty cool.

[SMiamiPimp]

In the summer of 74 I was in the Seed for the second time.

I was in a apt. The oldcomers who had the apt had this big cage full of snakes they caught in whatever work they did outside.

And no, I never saw a newcomer get put in the cage with the snakes for a infraction. Although that would be a pretty cool post.

Does anyone remember the apartment and group living there?

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Sure do.  That was Stranhan Apts.