Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Some insight(s)
John Underwood:
The Seed was an ideal, not Art Barker, not Shelly Barker, not myself or any other staff member.
Principles such as self-honesty, self-respect, brotherly love, courage, and a willingness to dedicate yourself to these convictions constituted the ideal. Be your own best friend while learning to love yourself was the intended pursuit, ...agenda if you will. The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.
This ideal remains the foundation of my life to this day, which is why, in part, I initially hesitated at the request to post at a site, (which I only learned of the night before last), that on the surface appears contrary. Nevertheless, some lingering, probably ill-advised, sense of responsibility to those who were in the program led me here today.
After a cursory journey through the postings I was appalled, but after some reflection I decided some of you might be sincerely interested in the first-hand knowledge and views of another Seed graduate, one who worked there for 6 years. Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here. You won?t be interested.
First, some specific questions posed at this site. No, neither Art or anyone at The Seed in a position of responsibility, had any affiliation whatsoever with Synanon. There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants. However, as the program grew, outside monies were acquired, parental and court(s) involvement became a factor, thus rules were necessitated. The steps were a tailored version of the 12 Steps of AA. All of the signs and slogans, i.e. ?You Are Not Alone,? ?First Things First,? ?Easy Does It,? et al, are the same ones that are postered on the walls of AA. This is not any great mystery.
No full-time Seed staff member with any meaningful duration of service and dedication to the ideal had anything whatsoever to do with Straight. We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous! The relentlessness of parents who believed they knew how to better operate The Seed and the problems arising from their zealousness is the only reason The Seed left St. Petersburg. They got what they wanted. The perception that government reports, the Times, or grant money had any effect on Art or those of us in positions of responsibility is farcical. We thought it was a joke and could not have cared less. As stated, however, the volume of parental interference was intolerable. The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being ?too soft.?
Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances. I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed. If I, or anyone I was close to, even suspected physical abuse, the consequence to the perpetrator would have been severe. I read one post that stated kids were taken outside and beaten while the group sang to cover up the sound. This, like several similar posts, is 100% bullshit, and undermines the credibility this site! There are some things that no one could have or would have got away with!
Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn?t changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.
What happened? (To the program and me) As the program expanded more rules and regulations, or at least the rigidity of enforcement, was necessitated to maintain control. This occurred in direct proportion to growth. It is my opinion, and mine alone, that the amount of control actually needed was far less than that perceived necessary, which was integral to the eventual downfall of The Seed. Not enough competent staff to go around was an obvious problem, but not to everyone. Good people, dedicated staff were thrown in over their heads, without adequate support, particularly in St. Pete and Cleveland. An unfortunate situation that led to many of the problems at St. Pete and, as previously stated, one that many of the St. Pete parents attempted to exploit. Art and The Seed is analogous to a parent who lives in fear of his child growing up and going out on their own. He wouldn?t have it, and this was fatal to the potential of The Seed, the dream. The dream and the vision were Art?s, and he deserves the appropriate credit. For the record, (as it is the subject many posts here), his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery, were irrelevant to me. Personalities were minor details in my mind when compared to what we wanted to achieve, and my respect for his initial goal was never diminished because of his behavior, nor was my respect for what he had accomplished. Nevertheless, refusal to concede that The Seed, the ideal had become bigger, and in my mind more important than Art, was akin to blasphemy, and at the core of the demise.
?Art is The Seed,? was thrown at me during a confrontation with Lybbi on my final night at The Seed, in front of Art and Shelly. Prophetic, in that the program was to shrink to proportions that made this true. When my loyalty after all those years was questioned, my only response was that my loyalty was to ?The Seed first, Art second.? This distinction was deemed unacceptable in no uncertain terms that very night. So I left.
I realize that, by no stretch of the imagination, does this answer all of the questions nor allay any of the ill feelings, nor is it my intent to do so.
I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience. Terms like ?survivors? used to portray faux heroism for enduring an ordeal, the suffering experienced for having to eat peanut butter and jelly and sit in hard chairs, sleeping in uncomfortable conditions, comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance. This isn?t just your problem, it seems to be a common and acceptable malady in today?s America. When one of you volunteers to live on the streets of Sao Paolo or Calcutta for a month, actually spends time in a North Korean prison, takes up residence in the bush of the west Congo, et al, then perhaps you may be qualified to speak about survival.
Love, willingness, faith and acceptance, mixed with some gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me. Those who got it and wanted to learn, did.
Those who didn?t, evidently, are at this web site.
Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard. At least I don?t think the First Amendment has been incorporated into the Patriot Act yet, hold on let me check today?s paper....
GregFL:
Thanks John! Your post is most appreciated as is your participation here. We obsviously disagree on some points but as you know, we both had a wonderfull extended conversation today.
This is a learning process for all. You have information that some people here may be interested in learning about, discussing, or even disagreeing with you on. I know I do...on all accounts.
Thank you again for coming here. Your willingness to answer questions in this forum speaks volums for your integrity and sense of responsiblity.I would at this point like to shut up (yes it is possible!) and let others comment or ask questions.
GregFL:
One small point John...that post you allude to indicated that persons at the St Pete Seed were punched BY Their parents at the direction of the staff. This in fact is well documented in the press and I have an indpendent memory of it occuring to two seperate people. Also, the threat was made to the group that it could happen to anyone. Hell, my father even remembers this as it was great topic of conversation among the parents. Of course he alledges he would have "never participated".
I am not alledging you had ANY involvement in this as I have no recollection of you being there during this fiasco, and it was admittedly done over a short period of time. However, this story made the local and national press . I will be happy to forward you a copy of the article where it appeared.
Okay, I can't shut up.
:grin:
Filobeddoe:
I would like to also thank you for posting John...
I remember you well from my time in St Pete and the subsequent move to Ft Lauderdale.
As a screwed up 16 y/o I recall fearing you & respecting you.
Regarding this site, I have found it to be very helpful in coming to grips with an important part of my life. I disagree with alot of the comments & feelings of other posters but they are "their" feelings and I can accept them as well as sometimes disagreeing with them.
Now that you have found this site... I would hope that you would read more posts and maybe respond when you feel inclined. I don't believe that you will be "beat up on".
Posting & reading the posts have helped me to remember alot of the good & bad times. Overall, my experience helped me as a person & I am glad that I was put in The Seed to put me on the right path.
Greg Jordan
Sarasota [ This Message was edited by: Filobeddoe on 2005-08-05 22:24 ]
John_FtPierce:
Thanks John for posting some good insights.
I've been meaning to say something here on Fornits for a couple of
years now, but haven't. Don't know why, just didn't. So with respect
to John's post, here I go. Pardon me if this is a little rambling and
not the best of prose.
For me, my experience at The Seed was very positive, though I rarely
talk about it to people. Overall I would say it changed me, made me
think very differently about myself and the world. Its funny, but
what I remember the most about The Seed was the idealism John refers
to. I think that is the main thing that the Seed changed in me.
Going to the seed was one of the defining times in my life, and I, for
one, am very grateful that *I* was lucky enough to go to The Seed.
I went in for a relatively minor offense. No law involved, just
another Seed person told my parents I had smoked some dope. I could
be mad about this. Strangely enough, I never was mad, not mad that it
happened, not mad at the person who told, not mad at my parents, mad
at no one. I don't know why.
I went to The Fort Pierce Seed. Perhaps I was lucky here, because it
was relatively small, and maybe that idealism John refers to ran high
there. The Fort Pierce Seed closed while I was still in the program.
I finished at the Fort Lauderdale Seed, which I never felt the same
about it as I did the Fort Pierce Seed. Perhaps the size, those rules
John refers to, or perhaps just a strange emotion, but I liked the
Fort Pierce Seed.
Being at the seed was intense. Very intense. Perhaps too intense. I
definitely can see many of the comments (complaints) that other have.
I was one of those people alluded to in some post as not having done
much in the way of drugs, I truly had only smoked dope a handful of
times. I can remember the pressure that "surly I was much worse than
that". However I just said what was true. O.k. there was a fair
amount of pressure, because that was a standard ruse. But people did
eventually believe me, I told no lies.
It was confusing there, it was intense, at times it was boring. And I
was way too young, 17 going on 11. (17 physical, 11 emotional)
I still have a hard time describing what happened there. Maybe it was
one of those experiences "that you have to go through even if you
don't like it, but it will be good for you". No, not quite. While I
wouldn't say I had "fun" or that I liked it there, and at the time I
was too young to really understand, I knew it was the right thing.
When it came time for me to graduate, I did things to keep from
graduating. I didn't want to leave. But eventually I did.
I definitely left confused, some what scared, and still very young.
But I left with something that was very good, very positive and hard
to define. I think a strange sense of idealism might describe it.
Yes, I learned a lot about what alcoholics anonymous really is, I
learned a lot about trivial stuff like the games people play, how
people lie, and why. But I left with something more. Maybe I saw
people for who they really are. Really good people, everyone, really
good.
I remember it like it was just yesterday. The people, the faces, what
everyone said. All of it.
I know "seed screw ups". I know people who do a lot of drugs since
going to the seed. I know people who's life is a shamble after going
to the seed. I know seed graduates that committed suicide. But, I
know people who never went to the seed that do a lot of drugs. And, I
know people who's life is a shamble that never set foot in the seed.
Also, I know people who committed suicide that never heard of the
seed.
Who am I today? How did the seed determine me today? Hard to say.
I've done more drugs since I went to the seed. I drink. I think
people would think of me as successful. Three college degrees, good
job, married, two children. I'm in love with my wife, she's in love
with me. I'm also getting a divorce. Does this make since? No.
Neither does life. The pursuit of happiness -- way too simple. Its
all too complex.
Different people take different things with them as they pass through
life. I can see where many of the other people are coming from in the
post on Fornits, I not saying they are wrong. For them, and their
experiences, and who they are, they are right. You put a different
person in a given situation, and they take different things from that
situation. Your particular experience is not right for anyone but
you.
Yes, we *all* remember the The Seed, we all think of the seed. ...
I cried when I found from the web that the seed had closed, I always
wanted to go back for one last visit. Perhaps thats why I come to
this forum, even the bad things said about the seed make me feel a
little better.
In closing, I would like to quote Bob Dylan: "I was so much older
then, I'm younger than that now". For me (remember: "Talk about
yourself!"), the older I get the less I know is very true. Its not as
clear or as simple as I use to think.
For everyone who went to The Seed, for better or worse, we are all
somehow bound together, having done something, shared in something,
that almost no one else has, bound by this thing call The Seed.
-- John
[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:51 ][ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:56 ]
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version