Author Topic: Some insight(s)  (Read 36517 times)

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Offline John Underwood

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Some insight(s)
« on: August 05, 2005, 05:34:00 PM »
The Seed was an ideal, not Art Barker, not Shelly Barker, not myself or any other staff member.
Principles such as self-honesty, self-respect, brotherly love, courage, and a willingness to dedicate yourself to these convictions constituted the ideal. Be your own best friend while learning to love yourself was the intended pursuit, ...agenda if you will. The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.
This ideal remains the foundation of my life to this day, which is why, in part,  I initially hesitated at the request to post at a site, (which I only learned of the night before last), that on the surface appears contrary. Nevertheless, some lingering, probably ill-advised, sense of responsibility to those who were in the program led me here today.

After a cursory journey through the postings I was appalled, but after some reflection I decided some of you might be sincerely interested in the first-hand knowledge and views of another Seed graduate, one who worked there for 6 years. Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here. You won?t be interested.

First, some specific questions posed at this site. No, neither Art or anyone at The Seed in a position of responsibility, had any affiliation whatsoever with Synanon. There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants. However, as the program grew, outside monies were acquired, parental and court(s) involvement became a factor, thus rules were necessitated.  The steps were a tailored version of the 12 Steps of AA. All of the signs and slogans, i.e. ?You Are Not Alone,? ?First Things First,? ?Easy Does It,? et al, are the same ones that are postered on the walls of AA. This is not any great mystery.
No full-time Seed staff member with any meaningful duration of service and dedication to the ideal had anything whatsoever to do with Straight. We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous! The relentlessness of parents who believed they knew how to better operate The Seed and the problems arising from their zealousness is the only reason The Seed left St. Petersburg. They got what they wanted. The perception that government reports, the Times, or grant money had any effect on Art or those of us in positions of responsibility is farcical. We thought it was a joke and could not have cared less. As stated, however, the volume of parental interference was intolerable. The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being ?too soft.?
Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances. I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed. If I, or anyone I was close to, even suspected physical abuse, the consequence to the perpetrator would have been severe. I read one post that stated kids were taken outside and beaten while the group sang to cover up the sound. This, like several similar posts, is 100% bullshit, and undermines the  credibility this site! There are some things that no one could have or would have got away with!
Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn?t changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.
What happened? (To the program and me) As the program expanded more rules and regulations, or at least the rigidity of enforcement, was necessitated to maintain control. This occurred in direct proportion to growth. It is my opinion, and mine alone, that the amount of control actually needed was far less than that perceived necessary, which was integral to the eventual downfall of The Seed. Not enough competent staff to go around was an obvious problem, but not to everyone. Good people, dedicated staff were thrown in over their heads, without adequate support, particularly in St. Pete and Cleveland. An unfortunate situation that led to many of the problems at St. Pete and, as previously stated, one that many of the St. Pete parents attempted to exploit. Art and The Seed is analogous to a parent who lives in fear of his child growing up and going out on their own. He wouldn?t have it, and this was fatal to the potential of The Seed, the dream. The dream and the vision were Art?s, and he deserves the appropriate credit. For the record, (as it is the subject many posts here), his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery, were irrelevant to me. Personalities were minor details in my mind when compared to what we wanted to achieve, and my respect for his initial goal was never diminished because of his behavior, nor was my respect for what he had accomplished. Nevertheless, refusal to concede that The Seed, the ideal had become bigger, and in my mind more important than Art, was akin to blasphemy, and at the core of the demise.
?Art is The Seed,? was thrown at me during a confrontation with Lybbi on my final night at The Seed, in front of Art and Shelly. Prophetic, in that the program was to shrink to proportions that made this true. When my loyalty after all those years was questioned, my only response was that my loyalty was to ?The Seed first, Art second.? This distinction was deemed unacceptable in no uncertain terms that very night. So I left.

I realize that, by no stretch of the imagination, does this answer all of the questions nor allay any of the ill feelings, nor is it my intent to do so.

I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience. Terms like ?survivors? used to portray faux heroism for enduring an ordeal, the suffering experienced for having to eat peanut butter and jelly and sit in hard chairs, sleeping in uncomfortable conditions, comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance. This isn?t just your problem, it seems to be a common and acceptable malady in today?s America. When one of you volunteers to live on the streets of Sao Paolo or Calcutta for a month, actually spends time in a North Korean prison, takes up residence in the bush of the west Congo, et al, then perhaps you may be qualified to speak about survival.
Love, willingness, faith and acceptance, mixed with some gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me. Those who got it and wanted to learn, did.
Those who didn?t, evidently, are at this web site.

Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard. At least I don?t think the First Amendment has been incorporated into the Patriot Act yet, hold on let me check today?s paper....
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 05:52:00 PM »
Thanks John!  Your post is most appreciated as is your participation here. We obsviously disagree on some points but as you know, we both had a wonderfull extended conversation today.

This is a learning process for all. You have information that some people here may be interested in learning about, discussing, or even disagreeing with you on.  I know I do...on all accounts.

Thank you again for coming here.  Your willingness to answer questions in this forum speaks volums for your integrity and sense of responsiblity.I would at this point like to shut up (yes it is possible!) and let others comment or ask questions.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2005, 06:02:00 PM »
One small point John...that post you allude to indicated that persons at the St Pete Seed were punched BY Their parents at the direction of the staff. This in fact is well documented in the press and I have an indpendent memory of it occuring to two seperate people. Also, the threat was made to the group that it could happen to anyone. Hell, my father even remembers this as it was great topic of conversation among the parents. Of course he alledges he would have "never participated".


I am not alledging you had ANY involvement in this as I have no recollection of you being there during this fiasco, and it was admittedly done over a short period of time. However, this story made the local and national press .  I will be happy to forward you a copy of the article where it appeared.

Okay, I can't shut up.

 :grin:
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Offline Filobeddoe

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« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 12:59:00 AM »
I would like to also thank you for posting John...
I remember you well from my time in St Pete and the subsequent move to Ft Lauderdale.
As a screwed up 16 y/o I recall fearing you & respecting you.
Regarding this site, I have found it to be very helpful in  coming to grips with an important part of my life. I  disagree with alot of the comments & feelings of other posters but they are "their" feelings and I can accept them as well as sometimes disagreeing with them.
Now that you have found this site... I would hope that you would read more posts and maybe respond when you feel inclined. I don't believe that you will be "beat up on".
Posting & reading the posts have helped me to remember alot of the good & bad times. Overall, my experience helped me as a person & I am glad that I was put in The Seed to put me on the right path.
Greg Jordan
Sarasota [ This Message was edited by: Filobeddoe on 2005-08-05 22:24 ]
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Offline John_FtPierce

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« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2005, 01:41:00 AM »
Thanks John for posting some good insights.

I've been meaning to say something here on Fornits for a couple of
years now, but haven't.  Don't know why, just didn't.  So with respect
to John's post, here I go.  Pardon me if this is a little rambling and
not the best of prose.

For me, my experience at The Seed was very positive, though I rarely
talk about it to people.  Overall I would say it changed me, made me
think very differently about myself and the world.  Its funny, but
what I remember the most about The Seed was the idealism John refers
to.  I think that is the main thing that the Seed changed in me.
Going to the seed was one of the defining times in my life, and I, for
one, am very grateful that *I* was lucky enough to go to The Seed.

I went in for a relatively minor offense.  No law involved, just
another Seed person told my parents I had smoked some dope.  I could
be mad about this.  Strangely enough, I never was mad, not mad that it
happened, not mad at the person who told, not mad at my parents, mad
at no one.  I don't know why.

I went to The Fort Pierce Seed.  Perhaps I was lucky here, because it
was relatively small, and maybe that idealism John refers to ran high
there.  The Fort Pierce Seed closed while I was still in the program.
I finished at the Fort Lauderdale Seed, which I never felt the same
about it as I did the Fort Pierce Seed.  Perhaps the size, those rules
John refers to, or perhaps just a strange emotion, but I liked the
Fort Pierce Seed.

Being at the seed was intense.  Very intense.  Perhaps too intense.  I
definitely can see many of the comments (complaints) that other have.

I was one of those people alluded to in some post as not having done
much in the way of drugs, I truly had only smoked dope a handful of
times.  I can remember the pressure that "surly I was much worse than
that".  However I just said what was true.  O.k. there was a fair
amount of pressure, because that was a standard ruse.  But people did
eventually believe me, I told no lies.

It was confusing there, it was intense, at times it was boring.  And I
was way too young, 17 going on 11.  (17 physical, 11 emotional)

I still have a hard time describing what happened there.  Maybe it was
one of those experiences "that you have to go through even if you
don't like it, but it will be good for you".  No, not quite.  While I
wouldn't say I had "fun" or that I liked it there, and at the time I
was too young to really understand, I knew it was the right thing.
When it came time for me to graduate, I did things to keep from
graduating.  I didn't want to leave.  But eventually I did.

I definitely left confused, some what scared, and still very young.
But I left with something that was very good, very positive and hard
to define.  I think a strange sense of idealism might describe it.

Yes, I learned a lot about what alcoholics anonymous really is, I
learned a lot about trivial stuff like the games people play, how
people lie, and why.  But I left with something more.  Maybe I saw
people for who they really are.  Really good people, everyone, really
good.

I remember it like it was just yesterday.  The people, the faces, what
everyone said.  All of it.

I know "seed screw ups".  I know people who do a lot of drugs since
going to the seed.  I know people who's life is a shamble after going
to the seed.  I know seed graduates that committed suicide.  But, I
know people who never went to the seed that do a lot of drugs.  And, I
know people who's life is a shamble that never set foot in the seed.
Also, I know people who committed suicide that never heard of the
seed.

Who am I today?  How did the seed determine me today?  Hard to say.
I've done more drugs since I went to the seed.  I drink.  I think
people would think of me as successful.  Three college degrees, good
job, married, two children.  I'm in love with my wife, she's in love
with me.  I'm also getting a divorce.  Does this make since?  No.
Neither does life.  The pursuit of happiness -- way too simple.  Its
all too complex.

Different people take different things with them as they pass through
life.  I can see where many of the other people are coming from in the
post on Fornits, I not saying they are wrong.  For them, and their
experiences, and who they are, they are right.  You put a different
person in a given situation, and they take different things from that
situation.  Your particular experience is not right for anyone but
you.

Yes, we *all* remember the The Seed, we all think of the seed. ...

I cried when I found from the web that the seed had closed, I always
wanted to go back for one last visit.  Perhaps thats why I come to
this forum, even the bad things said about the seed make me feel a
little better.

In closing, I would like to quote Bob Dylan: "I was so much older
then, I'm younger than that now".  For me (remember: "Talk about
yourself!"), the older I get the less I know is very true.  Its not as
clear or as simple as I use to think.

For everyone who went to The Seed, for better or worse, we are all
somehow bound together, having done something, shared in something,
that almost no one else has, bound by this thing call The Seed.


-- John


[ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:51 ][ This Message was edited by: John_FtPierce on 2005-08-05 22:56 ]
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Offline JaLong

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« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2005, 10:35:00 AM »
I want to thank you John for posting. I remember you from the St. Pete Seed. You know after reading what you have written, I have got to say my experience wasn't too bad. I think the worst part was my parents getting me into the car, driving up Park Blvd, and my Dad handing me a phoney court order. Then Mrs Peterman threatening me to sign the intake form or I'd be arrested. I was so scared, because my best friend and her brother were in there and I knew they were on Staff. Linda and Bruce Delk. I use go to the Seed and harrass the place. I was a very insecure, low self-esteem, angry girl at 17.
 Once I was in there, I saw people smiling, which is not something I did very often. I wanted what I saw in others. Slowly but surely I started getting it. Having "buster" newcomers as a responsibility helped my self-esteem. The downside was I started having a lot of anxiety, and then panic attacks. I hated being called on.
 As the time went on I was learning whom I was. I started to like myself, even to love myself. To make a long story short, I hated being in there only because I felt the Seed and staff had full control of me. That was my ego. It has been 31 years since that time. I didn't drink for 19 yrs after, now just occasionally, I have never gone back to drugs, and I still carry with me, and live the principals of the program. I always thought I was "Korean styled brainwashed", because that's what the newspapers said. I didn't know what was going on behind the scenes with some parents. I too remember a boy being hit, and someone getting hit with a belt by a parent back in the office. I held a resentment towards my parents for a long time, but heck, they saved my life. I have lost 19 old friends,mostly from overdose, but I am still here. And very happy also. Please continue to post. What you wrote helped me to see what really happened. I need to know that. Thanks!
                           Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2005, 01:24:00 PM »
I think what you said was very powerful.  I know that if it were not for the Seed I would not be here today with such a nice life.

I was never happy in my life and not even as a child.  I only found happiness when I  learned how to love myself and others.  I can't express all that the Seed gave me in my life.  They gave me lots of things that I rely on today.  I know that not everything in life is perfect but I feel the Seed did more positive things in my life than anything.  

I was at the Seed until the end which was probably one of the worst times in my life, but I still have such treasured memories of all of the wonderful years I shared with others.

It was nice to see your post and hear what you have to say after all of  these years.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2005, 02:13:00 PM »
So from my conversation with John I learned that he came into the seed on the front row, and the theory that maybe he brought the synanon style techniques flies out the window.

Good. What we need is less speculation and more facts.

John, here are a few  questions for you.

Were ANY of the early staff members brought in without going thru the program?

Do you remember ever meeting Robert Dupont personally? If so, Did he make any demands or suggestions on the program, and are you aware that he testified in court that the "Beginning of all this" (talking about straight that came from the seed) was the synanon?

Now, he could have been talking about the theraputic community (TC) concept in general or he could have meant a direct connection. This is why so many people have speculated that there was a direct connection from the seed to the synanon. I tried for a long time to make  this connection  and never could and eventually stopped believing it existed.

thanks in advance...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2005, 02:17:00 PM »
I have posted on this site a few other times in past about my experience at the Seed about both the good and the bad.
 I was a part of the Seed for about 6 years and I will say I?m grateful for all those years.
My experiences of those years are what formulated the foundation of what I base my life on today. I can remember that warm sunny October afternoon walking up the stairs on State Road 84 blinded by the sunlight as it contrasted with the shadow of the rap room and seeing for the first time all the clean cut smiling faces that were so welcoming me. I can remember being so scared by this that I felt like turning around running for that gate on 84 and just keep running till I could go no more. I choose not to run and stay and take my medicine because my past indicated to me that I really had no clue how to manage my life. I was 22 years old seasoned veteran druggie that was release from the Dade county jail to the Seed looking for a last shot of redemption.
  I had no clue what I was getting into at the time I would have been happy if I just would have been taught how I could go through one day without having to get high.
 In retrospect I learned a whole world of knowledge which over the years has became so entrenched and synonymous with the person I have become and hopefully with the person I will someday fully evolve into.
The Seed was not perfect as none of us are and the Seed grew and evolved as we did. There came a time when I began to feel stifled and over controlled by the Seed and after many years I?ve come to the conclusion that it was just my time to move on and to venture on my own and apply what I had learned and to rely on my new foundation.
In this time my perception changed as I changed I grew in knowledge, strength and the group thinking became well formulated opinions based on a practical understanding.

I do not look at my time at the Seed with regret or frustration nor do I harbor any resentment toward the Seed quiet the contrary, I hold those years as very special and for the most part with much fondness especially to the friendships that formulated into very solid bonds so too which are very much a part of my life and add so much to what I count as my blessings. I often find myself wondering how some old friend I have not heard from in years is doing. Do they remember me in a good way do they hold the Seed in the same light as I do?

 I often thought that I was unique in the importance or the impression the Seed had placed on me but, one thing that has been become so very clear to me by reading all the post is what a profound impression the Seed has left on all those who found themselves walking in through those doors.

?May God bless us; everyone?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2005, 02:22:00 PM »
BTW....Welcome John Ft Pierce!
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Offline John_FtPierce

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« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2005, 03:55:00 PM »
Thanks Greg, and not to forget Ginger (Antigen).

I posted a very positive post.  I can see that there are others who
also feel very positively about their experience as well.

I think that there have been bad things related to the seed.  I think
that maybe there were some abuses.  Hopefully just with the parents,
not staffers.  But I think that as any "institution" grows in size,
things are not as well defined, not as well monitored, ... , whatever.
Abuses occur everywhere.  For better or worse, they do occur.  One can
look at almost any intuition and see them.  I work for a university.
I see some people who are abused unfairly by the university, I see
others who receive preferential treatment.  This is a fact of life.
** To those who may have been abused by unusual circumstances at the
seed, *I* personally apologize. **

I would hope that people can see past this, see past trivial things.
Yes, the damn peanut butter and jelly sandwiches were horrible, the
seats uncomfortable.  Yes, things were regimented and controlled.
Yes, there was "peer pressure" within the seed.  Yes, too many, many
things.

But, at least for me, there was so much more.

I don't think "the seed saved my life".  I wasn't that kind of person.
I probably wouldn't have dyed had I not been to the seed.  But, it did
change my life, and as I said earlier, for so much the better.

However, I have done a great amount of researching, reading the web,
all over.  And it does seem to me that some of the other drug rehab
institutions were not like the seed.  It is difficult not to believe
that Straight was pretty bad, even if I only believes 0.01% of what
I've read.  I am somewhat upset that the seed is seen as the
predecessor of things that might be as bad as I suspect.

I think that the seed and all of its founders, creators and staff had
nothing but the best of intentions.  Maybe these intentions were still
swirling with the idealism of the late 60s: "we are going to change
the world".  I'm older now and have seen that idealism many times in
my life.  While I don't believe in it as much as I use to, I still
hope and dream that it comes true as much as ever.

-- John
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2005, 06:01:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-05 14:34:00, John Underwood wrote:

The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being ?too soft.?


I think the more salient irony here is that you guys didn't know what the hell you were messing with either.

Let's start w/ the first and most impotent rule. Where the hell was that when you were telling my 14yo brother that his dad didn't love him enough to come to open meetings? The truth of the matter is that you assholes didn't like his attitude when you gave him the ultimatum to sever ties w/ all of his best old friends or to make himself scarce while his sons were in the program.

I remember that night. I remember him cussing up a storm over how that damned professional alcoholic was happy to take his money and food donations and then have some smart assed 16yo druggie kid try to tell him how to live. Do you guys remember ever having ham and bologna? Remember those spice encrusted turkeys at thanksgiving? Thank my dad. All that good grub, plus cash donations, came from my dad and his friend, Lou DiFasio. You can even ask him if he's still alive. He was still living in Pompano when we moved up here 3 years ago.

Did you know that, while my dad wasn't allowed to attend open meetings, he was sitting out in the parking lot? I spent a few evenings out in that old orange grove star gazing w/ him. And I must say, it was a much better investment of my time than what was going on in that smoke filled open meeting room.

But you have NO idea what your lies did to my brother. He believed you, John! "Poor Tommy, even though his own dad doesn't love him enough to get w/ the program, he's still working hard to overcome his (non-existant) drug problem. But we love him, don't we group?" No, evidently you did not. Not unless he bent to your rules and to your beliefs, even about himself and his own blood. It was conditional; that's not love!

Then there's the rather notorious, pettite teenager w/ the $1k/day drug habit? John, if you really were a heroin addict when you showed up, I guess you might have known what a rediculous lie that was. Did it never occure to you to even wonder why no one ever challenged that?

And how about the 90% success rate? Or was it 99%?  :rofl: Pulled right out of Art Barkers ass, that one was! Of course, that's one aspect of the Program that I can believe was taken right out of AA.

I guess honesty is only important when you're grilling a 14yo for the torrid details of their sex life and private thoughts in front of a rather intimidating group of peers, huh?

I recognize that some people have fond memories of their involvement w/ the Seed. However, I also recognize that many of those fond memories are based on total bullshit.

My memory of those years are all about having to pretend I just loved the Program and all those open meetings and even the after meeting marathons at the back booth at Denny's. The reality is that, after I hit the age of around 11 or 12 or so, I was terrified every single week that I wouldn't be going home after open meeting. Can you imagine what it's like for a kid having to keep that to myself? I couldn't confide in anyone because having a bad attitude about the Seed was, certainly, a druggie attitude that would require treatment.

Oh, and that's not all. Same for wearing makeup or anything close to stylish clothing, having friends my own age was also verbotten. Remember, 90% of all teenagers are druggies, therefore teenage friends are probably druggie friends, therefore ..... well I had an extremely lonely childhood. By the time I got free and looked up my allegedly druggie boyfriend, he was already a freshman at Berkeley on a music scholarship. But then, his parents weren't insane. When my mom tried to convince them that their son needed a program, they ignored her.

Why do I feel the need to rain on your parade? Simple, really. You paint such a rosey picture of the whole thing that, unless those of us who know the other side of the story speak up, we wind up w/ Brother Jeb! building $100M worth of what he believes is juvenile drug rehabilitation centers where juvenile judges can compel kids to confess to drug problems they don't have.

I know your intentions were good. Never doubted that. But you just seem to be completely blind to the damage the whole thing has done. Sorry, The Seed was not unique. It was, just as Bobby DuPont promised, an attempt to replicate the Synanon method throughout the land. I just don't want my grandkids to have to live under the cloud of fear that I did when I was a kid. So I think it's worth hurting you guys' feelings.

Remember, honesty is the first and most impotent rule. And no, my brain never needed a good washing.

The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2005, 06:08:00 PM »
:nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0826400035/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Gandhi

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline cleveland

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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2005, 08:29:00 PM »
OK, I am weighing in.

I have very fond memories of the Seed, and I have harsh memories as well. No, the hard seats and the soggy sandwiches didn't kill me, and I was glad to have some discipline. What hurt, was realizing that the 'love' I was promised was conditional upon my acting a certain way, which required me to be less than honest. Yes, it was good to have a 'good attitude;' no, it was bad to not be able to live my life to be the person I am. I lost many years at the Seed to trying to follow a path others had laid out for me - I gained some other things that I also can't ignore. The Seed harnessed my sixties idealism (OK it was the seventies!) but didn't give it free reign. That was were it fell far, far short for me. And as to all those friends I though I had - few of them, few of them, truly cared for me, with the exception I can say, of a couple I have been in touch with here. And oh my god, did I need friends. It would have been nice to have kept them. Seven years of my life and so little carried over.

Life is complex, and the Seed tried to make it all simple. It did fail in some ways, Suceeded in others. What remains for me is the ideal of trying to be good and love others, but I had that when I came in and I had to find ways to regain it when I left the Seed. I felt betrayed and lost when I left the Seed, as if I had failed. I had not, I needed to see that.

I am glad for the postings here. There is so much more I want to say because none of this is adequate. Apparently I am somewhat bitter and unresolved, but I don't think greatly so. I am a happy guy today, I can tell you that. I learn from all of this. It was my youth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
ally Gator

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2005, 08:40:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-08-06 12:55:00, John_FtPierce wrote:

"Thanks Greg, and not to forget Ginger (Antigen).



I posted a very positive post.  I can see that there are others who

also feel very positively about their experience as well.



I think that there have been bad things related to the seed.  I think

that maybe there were some abuses.  Hopefully just with the parents,

not staffers.  But I think that as any "institution" grows in size,

things are not as well defined, not as well monitored, ... , whatever.

Abuses occur everywhere.  For better or worse, they do occur.  One can

look at almost any intuition and see them.  I work for a university.

I see some people who are abused unfairly by the university, I see

others who receive preferential treatment.  This is a fact of life.

** To those who may have been abused by unusual circumstances at the

seed, *I* personally apologize. **



I would hope that people can see past this, see past trivial things.

Yes, the damn peanut butter and jelly sandwiches were horrible, the

seats uncomfortable.  Yes, things were regimented and controlled.

Yes, there was "peer pressure" within the seed.  Yes, too many, many

things.



But, at least for me, there was so much more.



I don't think "the seed saved my life".  I wasn't that kind of person.

I probably wouldn't have dyed had I not been to the seed.  But, it did

change my life, and as I said earlier, for so much the better.



However, I have done a great amount of researching, reading the web,

all over.  And it does seem to me that some of the other drug rehab

institutions were not like the seed.....

I think that the seed and all of its founders, creators and staff had

nothing but the best of intentions.  


the entire teen help industry has commonality running thru it. The idealism of the seed was not based on 60s free love and "changing the world" but rather more on a egocentric movement to stop drugs at any cost, damn the collateral damage. This attitude and treatment modality existed thruout the united states by the time Art "invented" these techniques..only surprise suprise, they were already in full force and being practiced on children at CEDU, Elan and other treatment facilities that predate the seed. How art learned of them is stil a mystery even if he or his top staff was not connected directly to the synanon.  The premise that art conjured up all these techniques out of thin air is erroneous and downright disengenious.  Also, the assertion that it was all AA is also patently false. AA NEVER locks you up involuntarily, uses "come down on you by your "peers" techniques and makes you publicly confess to your crimes and sins and puts toilet seats around your neck. These are TC modalities pure and simple.

Never forget that the vast majority of those lovey dovey staff members were imparting their "gift of love" on basically 12-17 year old PRISONERS, not on a bunch of kids that voluntarily signed up to change the world. Don't forget that this love included not even allowing these little children to have their backs touch their chairs, 105 degree extended heat with only occastional water breaks, prohibition of the children to even let their mind wander for a moment without the threat of severe punishment, to withold family affection, decent food and freedom of bowel and urinary movement until "they got it" as you apparently did on your first or second day at the adult age of 22.

This idealism of the staff would have been just fine if it wasn't done in a coersive abusive non- voluntary environment. It was. All the flowery posturing aside, the Seed was a personality cult that with the blessing of misbeggoten parents, inprisoned and then practiced crude behavior modification on children including sleep deprivation, food deprivation, witholding of bathroom priviveldes, fear and intimidation, threat of inprisonmnet and loss of family for non compliance.

You wanna change the world? Start by looking inward at what really occured during the 6 years you were there, and apologize to the people that were harmed instead of blaming them for "not getting it".  Stop hiding behind all this "saving lives" mumbo jumbo and own up to locking little kids up, terrorizing, humiliating, degrading, love bombing and ostraciizing them from their family. then, when all was said and done, cutting them off from their new "family" when they tried to assert independence and free will.  Oh how easy it must be for someone of strong will that entered this environment in their 20s and quickly rose to the top to bash the now adult attendees of this cult who were once harmed little children held against their will without really trying to understand the harm that occured. You guys forced little tiny children under the guise of "saving their lives" into involuntary hero worship of a little egomaniac asshole and his handpicked croonies and now you bash them 30 years later for "not getting it".


As far as the testimonials, you can set up a website and get positive feedback on any cult. No surprise there.


The seed was a cult. Every cult has "positive" goals and paths one can take mixed in with the love bombing and behavior modification techniques. Big deal. The seed didn't invent "honesty, love  and awareness" but instead bastardized  these terms into something barely recogizing their true intended meaning.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »