Carlbrook

[Deborah]

All I said was that he WAS effected by what was done to him, not by how much. As in the effect from the coersion and mind control was greater than zero?

Based on what she told me, i don't think the brainwashing was sucessful.  Program brainwashign requires a kd to lose hope of leaving. He had hope of leaving so he never broke.

I do think, however, that he probably got use to certiain abnormalities about the place, thinking the fucked up, was normal.  That's different than brainwashing.  That's the effects of trauma.  That's just learning to tolerate the intolerable.

Based on what's been shared, I have to agree with psy. Given that he was an accomplished athlete, unlike the typical couch potato participant, wilderness was probably perceived as just another physical challenge. The forced marches and physical challenges didn't break him as they are intended to do. Probably the reason he prefered wilderness over TBS.

He strikes me as being a pretty sharp cookie too. That, and the fact that he was older, protected him from alot of the mind fucking. Kids who were younger going in seem to have had a harder time holding onto reality. Kids going in at an older age seemed to fair better in that regard.

Karen's son reminds me of three kids in the Brat Camp series. The older ones. Two guys were resistent to the program and had a history of violence. Because the cameras were rolling, the staff didn't 'push' them. They pretty much skated through. One of the three, female, was partially program before she arrived and bought it hook-line-and-sinker. Planned to go back and work for a program. She was physically fit and ranked on the other kids the whole time about their inadequacies, laziness, and non-compliance. Hell, you'd a thought she was part of the staff.

Programs effect kids differently depending on age, mental stability, and certainly if there is no hope of getting out. You can't live in an evironment that puts you under a microscope 24/7 and sanctions everything you think and say, and not emerge unscathed. Its a matter of degrees.

[Nihilanthic]

You can't live in an evironment that puts you under a microscope 24/7 and sanctions everything you think and say, and not emerge unscathed. Its a matter of degrees.

Yet again deb can put it succintly where I fail to do so.   Thanks.

And yes, saying that "oh its up to you to be healthy before coming in and see it as a challenge" is not a way to justify forced exercise. Being worn down physically can wear you down mentally as well. If I do any amount of conditioning Im usually very very snappy and grumpy for a while, but testosterone is just one of those things, now isnt it.

 :roll: Oh, boy.

I'm glad that her kid came out without getting too hurt, I'm not about to try to wish he was! But the practices of the program themself are inherantly... not good, not effective, not therapeutic, and for MOST people extremely stressful.

But yeah. Conditioning thats voluntary does not compare to abuse or forced exercise ONE iota.

[Anonymous]

Thrown in a program for a year plus, or booked for some nonsense charge?

Between those two choices, I would pick the latter. Obviously I'd say neither, but some people want to have some laid out by-the-numbers "choice" for them to take instead of "be a parent".

Once your parents call the cops and press charges its out of their hands. If you steal their car they can have you arrested for grand theft auto and charged. Steal property worth more than five hundred dollars and thats felony grand theft. Have more than a pinch of cocaine in your desk, thats drug posession with the intent to sell. A dozen ecstacy for your weekend parties, add on a felony for each of those. Those nonsense charges add up quickly. Maybe your parents were only trying to scare you, but suddenly you are facing six months in juvenile hall and probation until you turn 18 with weekly drug tests.

Calling the cops on your own kid (unless they are physically beating you or something) is horrible idea. To try use them as a tool of consequence or something is just plain dangerous.

[Nihilanthic]

6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.

Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?

They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...

[Charly]

From the former Prisoner himself-  IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy

KSA1: did you get my emails?  was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1:  well they fed us fine
das1:  and i dont remember it being that cold
das1:  but other than that its pretty much the same
das1:  and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at  you and force you to make stuff up?
das1:  yeah
das1:  they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1:  i dont know they were ok
das1:  but its like the girl said
das1:  if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you  :-)
das1:  because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1:  everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1:  i just sat there and let them yell at me

das1:  its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1:  the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1:  some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective

[Anonymous]

6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.

Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?

They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...

No, you are wrong. We are talking in the Carlbrook thread and about Second Nature. These are not Tranquility Bay or Samoa or High Impact. If you asked any kid in the real world whether they want six months in juvie and 18 mos probation, or karen's son's experience, they would laugh in your face.  At least that's what I would do.

[Nihilanthic]

6 months in juvie and 18 mos probation is still preferrable to a program dude.

Not that I think either of them is a good idea... but hey, you have to give them a clear cut "OPTION", right?

They're both bad options, but if I had to choose among the two...

No, you are wrong. We are talking in the Carlbrook thread and about Second Nature. These are not Tranquility Bay or Samoa or High Impact. If you asked any kid in the real world whether they want six months in juvie and 18 mos probation, or karen's son's experience, they would laugh in your face.  At least that's what I would do.

The OBVIOUS choice is "both suck, fuck you".

I'd rather 6 months of jail than a program for god knows how much longer, that's just me. Not having the entire institution trying to fuck with me 24/7 is better. Besides, I could get mail, phone calls, meet with lawyers, file all the shit I want, go to a library... tons of places have fucking TVs and radios and crap.

[Nihilanthic]

From the former Prisoner himself-  IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy

KSA1: did you get my emails?  was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer?
das1:  well they fed us fine
das1:  and i dont remember it being that cold
das1:  but other than that its pretty much the same
das1:  and the structure of the workshop is all the same
KSA1: did they yell at  you and force you to make stuff up?
das1:  yeah
das1:  they didnt force anyone to make anything up
KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops
das1:  i dont know they were ok
das1:  but its like the girl said
das1:  if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you
KSA1: like you  :-)
das1:  because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with
das1:  everyone at carlbrook was weak
das1:  i just sat there and let them yell at me

das1:  its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school
das1:  the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally
das1:  some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective

Ok, so it was a shitty abusive environment but in spite of that because of his inner strength he saw through it and made it out. Kind of damning to Carlbrook, but your son's got quite the head on his shouders and a strong will.

At any rate, it was all your son growing up, not anything these places did magically, emotionally growthful or otherwise. It was him, and him alone, and it was IN SPITE of them.

I think everyone here is more than proud of your son, though.

[Anonymous]

Than what "program"? There are thousands, and they vary in degree of mindfucking. It sounds like you speak of this mythical monolith program that exists, but they are all different.

You have a very romantic version of what juvenile hall is like. If the choice is to be locked in a dirty cage with a bunch of mexican kids getting in fights every other day, or flirting with hot rich girls at a preppy school in the northeast... it's a no brainer.  If you think people don't fuck with you 24/7 in jail you got it very wrong.

So, parents, remember, don't be calling the coppers on that kiddo now, ya here!

[Nihilanthic]

You think you flirt with chicks in programs? Which one are we talking about, HLA in its present state?  :rofl:

I dont have a romantic version at all, I just fucking asked someone who went through both and listened to them! Program is daily trying to break you down and change you, jail is just serving time. And no you're not locked in your cell all day unless its high security and/or lockdown for whatever reason... this is JUVIE not pelican bay.

[Anonymous]

No we are talking about Carlbrook, that's the thread we are in isn't it?

I am not trying to get in an agrument with you. I am stating my opinion based on my own experience, which includes both juvenille hall, and several different programs, a couple of which are discussed on this website.

My original and only point is, you should be careful of the advice you give. Calling the cops on your own child can cost them their life. My dad called the cops when I was high and hallucinating and they pulled their guns on me. It is a VERY dangerous thing to do.

This is my only point. I am anti-program. But I do not offer alternative solutions, because you fall into the same trap programmies do. You are trying to offer simple solutions to very complicated situations.

There IS NO ANSWER.

[Nihilanthic]

Thats what I said!

Just from what I was told at least in jail you have rights and representation. BOTH are bad choices, and there is no easy button. You just gotta tough it out.

[Deborah]

From the former Prisoner himself-  IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy

I appreciate that you posted that Karen.
CEDU is/was the blueprint for TBSs, and Carlbrook has some deep connections to CEDU, something we tried to explain long ago. You may be one of the fortunate ones, that your son was older and strong willed, may have saved him from PTSD or a lower sense of self worth.
In fact, a program can take a confident 14 year old, secure in who he is and who feels fairly safe in the world, and destroy those strengths. I know, they did this to my son. They didn't build on his strength and leadership qualities, they stripped him bare and left him naked and vulnerable. Due to his upbringing, charisma, and drive; he is slowly coming back. On the surface, he 'looks fine'. As his mother, I see the effects.

[Charly]

Thanks, Deborah.  I guess I thought the Carlbrook program was a lot different.  It appears as though it is not.  I think they softened it up a little, but the CEDU elements are there.  I can see how it could affect a younger kid more severely than an older one- especially an emotionally hardened kid like my son.  Perhaps his very flaws served him well.   I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities, just as I can see how these things were negatives at Carlbrook.  I got mixed messages though (from C-brook). I think one of the heads could really relate to my son- saw a lot of himself in him.  Enough to know that strength/resistance could throw a monkey wrench into things.  They liked for things to go smoothly, and that wasn't what my son tended to bring to a community.

[Nihilanthic]

I really do feel that 2N built on my son's strengths and leadership abilities

How?

Any strengths he had came from inside because of what was being done to him, not because they helped create them. Magical crucibles that make boys become men are the stuff of movies, literature, and the minds of tough love groupies.



Sure, bad things happening can make people grow up and whats inside come out, but it doesnt make them any better, it doesn't create what isn't there... and way more people become crushed by it. Don't confuse coallation with causation.